public school as a great equaliser - Page 2

[Ruthla]

Originally Posted by Meg Murry.

Ooh, you haven't? Here! ----> Harrison Bergeron.

Was that the whole thing or just an excerp?

Either way- scary stuff!

[Rivka5]

Originally Posted by Meg Murry.

For the sake of more argument, though, let's say that it was true. Isn't that a reason NOT to send someone to school? Doesn't everyone being equal smack uncomfortably of Harrison Bergeron to her? Isn't the lack of individuality (which is what you get when everyone's equal) antithetical to the very nature of democracy itself? Isn't the idea that everyone's the same rather fascistic in its essence?

Ahem. To quote your namesake, "Alike and equal are not the same thing at all."

[BusyMommy]

Originally Posted by annabanana

i was tempted to say that that was one of my reasons to homeschool (like do i really want my kids to be equal to everybody else?), but then i felt my response would sound like i was being socially irresponsible.

Um, what's wrong w/saying that in reply? So you don't want to sacrifice your children to the herd...

[luvmybabies]

I'd have said just what you thought to say right away. Not sure if it is the "right" response, but it would have been mine.

[mammastar2]

I do support well-funded public schools as an 'equaliser', if you will - not exactly the word I would have chosen, but as a potential vehicle of upward mobility in our society. That's something I will always support, regardless of whether we are homeschooling or private schooling with our own kids. I can support something that I believe has an important role in our society, at the same time that I make the choices that work for my own children at the time.

I don't think that your friend meant the term 'equaliser' to mean 'homongenizer' (although obviously school sometimes has the latter effect). I'm guessing she meant it much more in the sense that I used above.

Interestingly, there have been studies showing that the Canadian school system has much more of an 'equalizing' effect than that in the US. It has been a real force for upward mobility in this country. Yes, schools in poorer neighborhoods certainly are more stretched resource-wise than those in wealthy communities, but I do get the sense (which is backed up by research), that the divide is not as great as in the US. This would definitely inform my response as a Canadian.

[frogguruami]

I wouls say that my children are not like everyone else and forcing them to become like everyone else is an unexceptable way to live. I will support my children in THEIR quest to become whatever it is that THEY want and NOT what someone else determines they should be.

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by annabanana

what would you say to someone in a casual conversation, if you said you were homeschooling, and the person said she was an ardent supporter of public schools because they are such great 'equalisers'?

If that were true, all schools would be equally funded and all students would have equal access to quality teachers, quality learning materials, and quality school facilities, and we KNOW that is not the case!

Namaste!

[warriorprincess]

Wow. I just made the Harrison Bergeron response this past week.
If I were feeling really snarky, I'd say I don't want my kids to be equal, I want them to be superior!

[LeftField]

I think I would say something like:
"I also support equal access to education. I think it's wonderful that free public schools are available for those who need and want them. I pay taxes to support that public service. But I feel fortunate that we are able to homeschool."

[dharmamama]

I read the Harrison Bergeron story. I don't think that's at all what people mean when they say that public schools are equalizers. I think they are getting at equality of opportunity, not that everyone is or has to be exactly the same. I want to have the same opportunity for a good education as my BIL, but if his interests and abilities lead him to become a PhD in immunology and a pediatric infectious disease doctor (which they did) and mine lead me to become a social worker who quit work to stay home and homeschool her kids (which they did), that's great. I don't want us to all be the same. I want us all to have equal opportunities to fulfill our passions. If public school could offer that, I might support it.

Namaste!

[mamajama]

I think my post will echo some of the previous posts.
First, I should say that I live in Canada where the divide between rich and poor is not as vast as in the States (yet). We are moving in that direction, however, precisely because funding for social programmes such as public schools is being cut in the name of fiscal conservatism.

I am very supportive of homeschooling and think it's fabulous and would love to be able to do it for my kids someday. But for now, I am very grateful to our public school system. It does offer my kids opportunities that I would not be able to provide for them at this time. They provide hearing and vision tests, special visiting artists/dancers/playwrites, field-trips, hot lunch, routine, friendships with kids from all walks of life/cultures/religious backgrounds, sports, basic music education, stability, mentors, counsellors etc. In this way, public school allows my kids almost equal access to activities and services that I could not provide. I say, almost, because I know that many homeschooling parents are able to provide an a la carte education for their kids including private classes and activities entirely chosen by their kids like dance, soccer, martial-arts, drawing etc. Homeschooling families and private schooling families often can provide a more prestigious education tailor made for their individual children. This is not available in public schools.

Public school also allow for women to be a part of the work-force or pursue their individual interests. For example, women would never have had a chance to be involved in politics to the extent (albeit, still limited) that we are today if it wasn't for the existence of some sort of accessible education centre.

I think that our society is based far too heavily on individualism and public schools, in theory, combat that in some way. Flawed as they are, they are an essential service and I think it is important to support them regardless of whether or not we choose to use them ourselves.

ETA: So, in my opinion, the solution to the fact that public schools place some kids at a disadvantage is to *funnel* funding to them rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak, and withdrawing support.

ETA (again!): It strikes me as...disquieting, that people on this thread have treated 'equal' like it's a bad thing.

[AngelBee]

Originally Posted by chaos_pie

I think it is interesting and would wonder why your friend had this value.

That is what I am wondering.... :

[RiceMomma]

My husband responds to this idea by saying, "Yeah, making us all equally stupid."

He's joking. Kinda.

Honestly, I think there should be public school- they have always done society good and raised the standard of living for the poor.

But I kind of agree with my husband, not knocking public school, but the only way to make everyone "equal" is to drag us all down to the same low level.

[Meg Murry.]

Originally Posted by Rivka5

Ahem. To quote your namesake, "Alike and equal are not the same thing at all."

No, certainly not -- but I think that schools tend to homogenize to the point where "equal" does come to mean "alike." Vast differences, whether social, physical, or (God help us) intellectual differences from a socially acceptable norm are met with more than intolerance; they are met with ostracism whose intensity increases in proportion to the difference. And that's just inside the classroom.

[moominmamma]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

If that were true, all schools would be equally funded and all students would have equal access to quality teachers, quality learning materials, and quality school facilities, and we KNOW that is not the case!

With all due respect, it is much closer to being the case in Canada, where annabanana lives, than it is in the US. Teachers are unionized and salary levels are decided provincially, as is school funding. Obviously access varies; no funding model can assure perfect equality (it costs more to educate ESL students, and rural students, for instance), and though budgets try to compensate as fairly as possible for these variations, there are minor discrepancies. While there are some differences between provinces (northern territory teachers generally get paid more, because the cost of living is higher, and teachers in Alberta get paid more than those in Newfoundland) but compared to the US, the discrepancies are fairly small. And due to a history of strong social programs (currently being eroded...) the gap between Canada's rich and poor is much smaller than the gap in the US. So poor neighbourhoods are not as poor, and wealthy neighbourhoods are not as rich.

Miranda

[mammastar2]

Isn't this interesting - we've got three Canadian responses now, all saying "yes, I can see that in Canada!" Canadian public education definitely is differently situated.

[ellebelle]

If you have ever read anything on the beginnings of public education, you would realize that public schools were really designed to homogenize the masses to be good workers for the industrialized society. My Educational Policy Studies class in college (20 years ago) was a real eye opener. Just read the early writings of Horace Mann. While he would espouse the idea of elevating the society, they were really more interested in homegenizing the immigrants for the industrial machine. They never intended to equalize society. The rich would still get richer off the backs of these "educated" lower classes. The rich would still have their own education system - private schools and/or tutoring.

While the mission has changed, the educational system really hasn't.

Homeschooling is the real equalizer - allowing children of all backgrounds to get an individualized education - customized to that child's needs, not the needs of "society" as a whole.

When I read this stuff in college, I was planning on becoming a teacher. This really turned me off. I think it planted the seeds to me becoming a homeschooler, but I never considered it until I went looking for an alternative to the ever-present preschool pressure.

Ellen
homeschooling mom to 13yos, 10yos, 6yod

[Paigerina]

This article by John Holt has a lot of information that relates to why public school isn't an equaliser:

http://www.naturalchild.org/common_objections/

Also, by deeming some subjects more valuable than others, school effectively deems some types of intelligence and some people more valuable than others.

A former art teacher of mine once assured my class we would be graded solely on effort, and not at all on the product of our efforts. I wish my last math teacher had said that. Students must make certain grades in academic classes to participate in school athletics at a high level. But students don't have to excel athletically to participate in academic classes, and so on.

I often used to hear teachers and school administrators say things like, "No one grows up to play in the NBA." Yet all students must study math that is beyond what most people will ever need or want to use.

According to the U.S. Department of Labor, "Mathematicians held about 2,500 jobs in 2004. Many people with mathematical backgrounds also worked in other occupations. For example, about 53,000 persons held positions as postsecondary mathematical science teachers in 2004." I suppose public middle and high school math teachers weren't included in these statistics because they're required to have a teaching degree, instead of a background in math or a math-related subject?

On the other hand, according to the U.S. D of L, "Athletes, coaches, umpires, and related workers held about 212,000 jobs in 2004. Coaches and scouts held 178,000 jobs; athletes, 17,000; and umpires, referees, and other sports officials, 16,000."

A certificate that shows you survived twelve years of having the National Curriculum drilled into your head isn't an equaliser. It encourages people to think what matters most is how you look on paper, instead of encouraging them to believe they have something unique and important to offer.

Well-stocked public libraries with access to the internet, more freedom and free time for kids and decreasing or waving college tuition would serve as a much better equaliser than the public K-12 system.