Praise thread spinoff: How does no praise make a child feel?

[chinaKat]

There's a big old thread about an oft-discussed topic here -- according to Alfie Kohn, praise is bad for kids. My spinoff question is -- how do kids that are not praised feel about themselves?

My parents did not praise. Not because they read not to in a book, they just aren't praisers. And I always wondered why, as a child.

One example that stands out in my head is that my mom and dad never told me I was pretty. Never had a complimentary thing to say about my appearance... that an outfit looked nice on me or that they liked my hair.

I heard my friends' parents tell them all the time that they were beautiful. Heck, some of them even told *me* that *I* was beautiful. Of course, I didn't believe them, because if I *was* beautiful, my mom and dad would have said so, too, right?

It took years of compliments from friends and boyfriends before I could accept the fact that I wasn't ugly or fat. I look at old pictures of me now and realize I was actually a relatively adorable kid.

So, I wonder.

If I bend over backwards to make sure that I'm not giving my daughter praise, how do I know this won't backfire? Will she hear other little girls being praised (for any number of things), and think that she is somehow inferior because she never hears praise from her mama?

[PaxMamma]

s
i'm sorry this was your experience. did your parents do ANYTHING to enforce a positive self-esteem? did they get involved in your life? did they show interest? did they show affection? telling someone how valuable they are to you is not the same as praise, did they ever do that?

[chinaKat]

Originally Posted by dkeoshian

did your parents do ANYTHING to enforce a positive self-esteem? did they get involved in your life? did they show interest? did they show affection? telling someone how valuable they are to you is not the same as praise, did they ever do that?

In their way, sure. They weren't AP by any stretch of the imagination, although they were pretty NFL. But I don't mean this thread to be all about me [or as a form of self-therapy... ] I was just stating one example of "not praising" that I think can have a negative effect. Surely there are others?

[Daffodil]

To me, there is a difference between compliments/expressing admiration and praise. I try not to praise my daughter, but I do often tell her I think she's beautiful and clever and I love her and feel lucky to have her as a daughter. What I want to avoid is praising her for things she does or the way she acts, not expressing admiration for the wonderful person she is. Of course, there's a fine line there, and I'm not completely sure yet exactly where to draw the line.

[Cherie2]

My mom was a bigtime praiser, as a result I always though I had a good self image because of it, always thought I was pretty etc. I have given my daughter lots of compliments as well because I am very aware of the consequences of poor self images among girls. It has not seemed to help though, she is 18, she thinks she is ugly and fat (which she is so not, the girl could be a model) She shows all the classic signs of a unloved unappreciated neglected young woman. Go figure?

[Blue Dragonfly]

I never thought about compliments as praise! (that's kind of funny, because I am really careful with my "good jobs" but tell my kids all the time how beautiful they are . . .)

I think in part because I wish I would have been told that

And in part because that's how I was with my baby sister (she's 16 yrs younger). She's beautiful, and also really heavy. But she has a great self body-image. I don't know if it was because she got so much positive re-inforcement, or because she was raised differently than me.

[chinaKat]

Curious, why would

You're so pretty!

be any different than

You're so smart!
You're so good at climbing!
You're such a good artist!
You're so strong!
You're such a good helper!
You're so good at soccer!

I've seen all of the latter examples shown as examples of praise.

?

[Anarkissed Mama]

my dd is still young so I am figuring this out as I go. I recently listened to Alfie's lecture "Unconditional Parenting" and I think that what he says is to celebrate your kids' successes with them and to make statements that let them know you have witnessed them, that you empathise, and that you are trying to address their needs. These all demonstrate love, involvement, attentiveness, caring, and I think he would argue that when kids have this from their parents it does build their self-esteem and confidence. I try to say things to my dd (14 mos) like "I saw how you fit the elephant through the hole!" Instead of, "great job for putting the elephant through the hole!" The difference may seem subtle, but on the one hand I am evaluating/judging what she has done and in the former I am celebrating/acknowledging something that she is excited about.

[ColinsMommy]

I also struggle with this because I would have killed to hear just one compliment from my parents as a child. I have many issues around the approval I never got from them and have a hard time not going overboard in the opposite direction with DS.

I agree in principle with what Kohn says about not "good-jobbing" every little thing, but it's hard for me to put into practice when I remember the pain of never hearing it from my parents. I know there's a happy middle ground where my child knows I love, appreciate and am proud of him without me manipulating him with praise, which I'm struggling hard to find. I guess I clearly understand what NOT to do, but need help with what TO do instead. I would never give a fake "good job" just because DS did something I wanted him to, but it also seems fake to me not to compliment him on something that I truly think is wonderful and he's excited about.

[**guest**]

the problem with praise is not praising per se, but blanket, generalised praise.
'easy' statements that can be uttered with little attention, can become habitual without being grounded in reality; and which don't require paying careful attention to the accomplishments.

alfie kohn is advocating against that kind of praise. he is not advocating against praising in general. he offers alternatives to praising, which are specific and honour the child.

i agree whole heartedly with kohn's argument, and i certainly praise my daughter many times a day. however, i've taught myself not to offer easy / mindless 'good jobs' .



some alternatives below:

[QUOTE=chinaKat;7047159]Curious, why would

You're so smart!

or: you found the solution to this problem all by yourself

You're so good at climbing!

you climbed hight and you never slipped

You're such a good artist!

i love the way you painted the sky with those pinks and blues

You're so strong!

you brought my grocery bag to me. thank you.

You're such a good helper!

thank you for taking the clean diapers out of the dryer.

You're so good at soccer!

you keep your eyes on the ball really well.

so...
You're so pretty!

your eyes are really sparkling, and they are the color of the sky!

[georgia]

I like this Mothering Magazine article about praise (not by Kohn, btw).

[DevaMajka]

hmmm...interesting. I'll have to think about this. I tell my ds he's the best, for no reason at all. I tell him "you're so cute" just because the thought crossed my mind.
But I never never never say "good job" or "I'm proud of you for..." or any type of praise like that. I like to keep the focus on HIS accomplishments, not how I feel about them.
But...hmmm...how is that different than "you're so cute"...I'm not sure. It feels different, but...I don't know.
Maybe because I'm "describing what I see" lol
no, I'll think about this. Good discussion!

I'd like to add, that I take my cues from ds. If he seems to need more than what I've said, I say more. If I say "yes, you climbed up" and he still is calling for me to see what he's done, I'll add to it "you climbed really high" or "you climbed all by yourself" or whatever seems that *he's* focused on.
So, if I sensed that he wanted me to comment on his looks, I would. That's just me

[chinaKat]

Originally Posted by georgia

I like this Mothering Magazine article about praise (not by Kohn, btw).

It was interesting.

But I see the point in not over praising. I believe I understand the criticism that endless praise isn't beneficial in the long run.

My thread is about something the article doesn't address. In wake of the backlash against praise (which I see a great deal of in this forum), how are children affected by their parents' conscious decision NOT to praise?

I just wonder if, living in a culture that generally encourages praise, children will perceive a lack of praise in their own home as a personal failing of their own -- particularly when they reach the age where they can and do compare themselves to their peers.

It seems a delicate line, no?

[mavery]

My gut reaction is that there are two separate issues here.

First, telling kids they're beautiful or cute to me feels difficult because their (basic, inherited) appearance is something they don't control and is something very superficial that I would not want my kids to place excessive value on. It's also evaluating them as a whole - like if they were not beautiful they would somehow not be as worthy. This backfires when the kid (for whatever reason) identifies a "flaw" with themselves (relative to ridiculous standards we all absorb) and then concludes that they're not beautiful and their parent's opinion cannot be trusted. (This was exactly my experience.)

On the other hand, telling kids that they look nice with their hair that way, or that that sweater brings out the lovely color of their eyes feels fine to me. You're responding to a particular unique feature of theirs, or a particular effort they've made to look nice, and you're sort of evaluating them with respect to themselves rather than giving them a value relative to other people (i.e. "you're beautiful" --> implicitly, not everyone else is beautiful, whereas "that sweater brings out the lovely color of your eyes" --> there's something specific that's beautiful and that I'm appreciating about you, and maybe there's something that's beautiful about everyone else too, though not the same thing)

ETA: A lesson that I think I learned from a book called "The Blessing of a Skinned Knee" is that (in addition to an epidemic of praising) there's an epidemic of "specialness". Telling our kids that they're special, or they're the best, feels completely natural--because they're special to us--but causes them problems when they figure out that they are also ordinary. I think that telling kids they're the best, or they're special, sets them up to expect to be better than other people. What I would like my son to know is that he's unique and has his own talents, but that he's also ordinary. He doesn't have to do or be something extraordinary to be loved and valued.

[Twocoolboys]

Originally Posted by chinaKat

In wake of the backlash against praise (which I see a great deal of in this forum), how are children affected by their parents' conscious decision NOT to praise?

children will perceive a lack of praise in their own home as a personal failing of their own

ChinaKat - I am with you on this. That is reason #1 why I never bought the no praise arguements. I certainly see the value in giving well thought out praise as opposed to mindless "good jobs", but I grew up in a no praise house and it was NOT self esteem building, to say the least. I had almost the same experience as you in regards to not being told I was pretty. The first person to tell me I was pretty was my first boyfriend when I was 14. My best friend in high school had a mother that heaped praise on her dd and on me when I was over there. I think she knew that I didn't get it at home. I LOVED going over there.

My mom did intend not to praise. She comes from a long line of the school of child rearing where it is believed that praise and compliments will give the child a "big head" and result in a child being "full of him/herself". I always thought of this as that old-fashioned Edwardian era child rearing that goes along with the "children must be seen and not heard" arguement.

That said, it IS hurtful to hear friends parents telling their kids how wonderful they are, how talented they are, how beautiful they are, etc. To be standing there hearing that as a child you KNOW that you are none of those things because if you were, surely your mom would say it, right? And if the parent never expresses their own pride in what you do, then your accomplishments just aren't worthy of parental pride. That is how it feels as a child. I still feel this as an adult. My mom still thinks she will give her kids and grandkids "big heads" if she praises.

I lived this as a child. I would never recommend it.

It is interesting to see some posters above now kind of backstep and say, well, praise that is thoughful is ok. Because I have read some threads that are completely anti-praise and take it so far as to try to find ways to get grandparents to stop praising their grandkids. Those make me cringe.

[Daffodil]

Originally Posted by chinaKat

Curious, why would

You're so pretty!

be any different than

You're so smart!
You're so good at climbing!
You're such a good artist!
You're so strong!
You're such a good helper!
You're so good at soccer!

I've seen all of the latter examples shown as examples of praise.

?

Even though they may all be considered praise, I'd say those examples are really a mixed bag - some seem fine, some seem like the kind of praise I want to avoid, and some I might want to avoid, but not because they're praise. And whether each of them is good, bad, or neutral really depends on the whole context and the other implied messages that go along with it.

"You're so pretty" isn't the kind of praise you give to manipulate a child's behavior. You're just expressing delight over the way she was born. That makes it better in some ways but, as Mavery says, it could teach your child to place too much importance on physical appearance, or to feel she would be less loved if she hadn't been lucky enough to be born pretty (or if she gained weight, or cut off those lovely curls, or got her pretty clothes all dirty.)

"You're so good at soccer" is more the kind of thing I'd like to avoid - though it depends on the whole context. For a little kid just starting to learn soccer, that statement gives the message that you're evaluating her skill at soccer, and that being good at it is important to you. It would probably be better to let her focus on how much fun soccer is without worrying about whether her performance is up to your standards. On the other hand, if you have an older kid who has been playing soccer for a long time and is clearly very good at it, I see nothing wrong with happily acknowledging that fact - as long as it doesn't mean the child feels pressure to keep playing soccer, or feels you would be really disappointed if she played a bad game.

"You're so strong" seems harmless in most cases - the equivalent of saying, "You're so healthy."

"You're such a good helper" could be really manipulative. It could mean, "I feel so loving towards you when you do all the things I ask you to do without complaining. If you can be like that all the time, I'll think you're wonderful." I'd really want to avoid that. Or it could just mean, "When you do X, Y, and Z, you make a real contribution to the household, and it's appreciated." I think that's useful feedback (but would be more useful stated the way I put it, rather than just implied in a more vague "You're such a good helper" statement.)

[scoutycat]

I think that there is definately a need for recognition, a need to be seen and known in kids to be well attached to their caregivers. However, this has been traditionally filled by empty or unclear praise instead of actual recognition. If your parents had said That color looks great on you! Or I really like the way your haircut frames your face. It would have meant more than you're so pretty. The confidence that being seen honestly gives to a child easily makes up for any loss of 'good job' feelings, because it directly fills the need that the child has. Eliminating praise takes the power away, the ability to manipulate that need by dangling it in front of a child who winds up not able to define their own greatness, as well as working to define an arbitrary and ambiguous definition of 'good'. But eliminating praise is only half the cure - sufficient time must be given to recognition and awareness to make it work. - jen

[DoctorGirlfriend]

Originally Posted by Twocoolboys

My mom did intend not to praise. She comes from a long line of the school of child rearing where it is believed that praise and compliments will give the child a "big head" and result in a child being "full of him/herself".

This is SO interesting, because I was just talking about this with my own mom. My dad died last month, and it's turned all of us very introspective, as deaths often do. Mom was talking about her German Catholic "our love is implied" family, and how they didn't praise, either, because bragging/being full of yourself was just an awful, awful thing.

I still have a hard time taking a compliment, and rely on self-deprecating humor a lot. I don't know if it's connected in any way. I don't think my parents' reluctance to dole out praise affected my self-esteem, but maybe just the way I dealt with ANY praise that came my way.

[chfriend]

I say stuff like, "Mmm, I love how your hair smells." "Wow, that color makes your eyes just pop!" "How do you want me to do your hair today. Oooo, that'll be fun." "I like that shoe sock combination." "Hey, I'd never of thought of those two together! That really works on you."

My dds feel pretty. They feel smart. They're really proud of being strong. They're proud of their accomplishments. They stick of for themselves and take care of their friends.

I do a lot of "thank you for...." I pretty much avoid that "manipulative" praise thing, but yk, there are worse things.

ETA: I guess I think praise and compliments are different things, but I'm going to think on that.

[chinaKat]

Originally Posted by scoutycat

If your parents had said That color looks great on you! Or I really like the way your haircut frames your face. It would have meant more than you're so pretty.

I don't think that's neccesarily true.

My friends' moms all told their daughters "you're so pretty". THAT is what I wanted to hear from MY mom. I wanted to be pretty, too. Having a nice haircut or a good color shirt would have been cool... but dammit, I wanted to be *pretty*.

My mom never said I was pretty. Therefore, obviously, I was not pretty.

In fact, as I got older, if I heard a compliment like "I like your shirt" in lieu of a "you are pretty" I saw it as further evidence that I wasn't pretty. After all, everybody else I knew was told they were pretty... but the best I could get was "nice shirt"? Gah.