Lying - consequences?

[LynnS6]

Ds (5 1/2) has figured out that he can lie about things. I'm not sure how to react. If it's a blatant untruth, I will simply state what I know to be the truth and move on. Normally it's about minor things such as he'll say he's picked up 12 toys when he's only picked up 5. Sometimes I have been keeping track and so can call him on it, but other times I will just have to take his word.

But, last night he was angry with us for some reason (he was overtired and we started getting ready for bed at our usual time, but it was too late for him). Dh had put his pajamas on and I was getting dd's pajamas on. I took a break from chasing her down (she is 2) to go to the bathroom. She was in the playroom. Ds turned off the light on her and shut the door. He then came into the bathroom, and I heard her scream. I said "I don't like door play because I'm afraid someone is going to get hurt. Is the light on in the room?" (intending to have him go turn it back on if it was and to tell him that being alone in the dark scares his sister). He looked at me, thought for a moment and said "the light's on".

I asked dd, and she said he'd turned it off (I wasn't sure, hence the question, it could have just been that he closed the door).

This made me angry for 2 reasons: He shut his sister in a room alone, in the dark and he didn't tell me about. He wouldn't have been punished for it, so I'm really unclear of the motivation behind it. (99% of the time it's to get out of something he doesn't want to do - wash his hands, pick up toys, etc. Pretty transparent.)

I"m not sure I'm willing to do 'natural consequences' for this one, as the natural consequence is that I can't trust him, which is entirely too subtle and too distant for him.

So, is there a logical consequence? Is there something else we can do?

[Roar]

This is quite typical...though he may be a bit ahead of the curve hitting this milestone.

The generally recommended advice is:
1. Don't set the kid up to lie. Don't ask questions "did you eat the last cookie?" or whatever if you already have a good inkling about the answer.
2. Avoid making it an overly big deal. Generally explain the importance of truthtelling as it relates to trust.
3. Allow for some fantasy..."we wish that was what happened" or whatever.

[mamaduck]

What Roar said, plus -- let him know that you notice and appreciate his honesty whenever you get the chance. And, at a nuetral time, have a nuetral sort of conversation about what honesty is, and why people prefer it.

[mavery]

I agree with the pps for minor instances where it doesn't hurt anybody. In this kind of case, I would react much as if he had, say, hit his sister or snatched something away from her, or whatever. He did something which he knows (or should know) upset her. In other words, I would focus more on the effect on other people than on the lie itself.

[fly-mom]

:

My 3.5 y.o has figured out about lying : It makes DH really mad. I'm just calling her on them. She mostly does it when she thinks we are going to be angry with her for something.

[maya44]

Yeah, never set them up to lie.

It sounds like you felt you had to ask a question, but I don't think it was probably necessary.

You could just have said "If you turned off the light you need to go in there and turn it back on. Being in the dark is very scary for your sister."

If I ask the question because I slip up, I'd still say "well if the light did get turned off you need to turn it on so you sister won't be scared"

[octobermom]

At this age kids still feel that what they say beccomes the truth as they want it. A lack of inpulse controll likely caused him to shut the door without the light. When you said

"I don't like door play because I'm afraid someone is going to get hurt. Is the light on in the room?"

Then he said yes cause in his world he likely didn't want to really hurt his sister or disaapoint you so he said what he thik you want. For things like this I'd just assume (screaming child behing closed door isn't good) and would have opened the door turned on the light and just calmly and matter of factually reviewed the rules. "We need to keep the door open and the light on".

[irinam]

Originally Posted by Roar

This is quite typical...though he may be a bit ahead of the curve hitting this milestone.

The generally recommended advice is:
1. Don't set the kid up to lie. Don't ask questions "did you eat the last cookie?" or whatever if you already have a good inkling about the answer.
2. Avoid making it an overly big deal. Generally explain the importance of truthtelling as it relates to trust.
3. Allow for some fantasy..."we wish that was what happened" or whatever.

[WuWei]

Basically I believe that "lying" is either an attempt to express 'how I wish it were' (ie. mourning that it happened or wanting it to be different), or an attempt to avoid "getting into trouble" for telling the facts when the intent (or underlying need) is not considered important.

We haven't experienced any sort of 'need' for our son to lie. He doesn't "get in trouble" for behaviors or actions. We work to understand (and address) the reasons behind his behavior rather than focus on the behavior. So, what is the child trying to accomplish with giving information which isn't what occurred?

Our son has never been introduced to the idea of "lying". I would just assume that the information is meant to convey something that they don't have another way of effectively communicating, and try to discover the intent of their words, rather than focus on the "Truth". Their perception may well be that their words are conveying a "truth" that they wish for. The whole concept of wishes, imaginary play and reality are overlapping concepts at this age.


Pat

[mummy marja]

I've been thinking about issues like this a lot lately. I certainly don't have all the answers but here are my thoughts...

I think the main issue here is --"he was mad at us for some reason," That doesn't mean it was alright for him to scare his sister, but at least we know why he did it. So I wouldn't make the situation worse by asking him direct questions that he is inclined to lie about. (For instance, I wouldn't ask "how many toys did you pick up?" I would just say, "I think we need to pick up more toys,")

I guess I would try to figure out a way to connect with him and talk with him about what made him mad, and try to resolve that. After wards he might be feeling sad about making his sister upset and then he wouldn't need a consequence--the lesson would be learned.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by Roar

This is quite typical...though he may be a bit ahead of the curve hitting this milestone.

OMG - a social milestone that he's early for!!! That's a first!

Originally Posted by mummy marja

I've been thinking about issues like this a lot lately. I certainly don't have all the answers but here are my thoughts...

I think the main issue here is --"he was mad at us for some reason," That doesn't mean it was alright for him to scare his sister, but at least we know why he did it .

True -- I don't remember why he was mad at me (I think because he had to get his pjs on before his sister did) -- I understood fully why he was being 'mean' to his sister. But turning out the light was new and unexpected and caught me offguard (hence the direct quesiton)

So I wouldn't make the situation worse by asking him direct questions that he is inclined to lie about. (For instance, I wouldn't ask "how many toys did you pick up?" I would just say, "I think we need to pick up more toys,").

99% of the time, I don't. I know it's much more effective to say "change your socks please" than "have you changed your socks?" -- but this was a genuine request for information.

(For bedtime, it's more complex: Part of the routine is telling him a concrete number of thigns to pick up to keep it manageable for him. Telling him to clean up the toys is too vague and threatening for him. A number helps him (and he asks for a number before he starts). The problem is that I can't always monitor him to see if he's got the right 'number' (or at least is in the ballpark), and I don't want to. I think we'll have to change strategies and set the timer for a specified amount of time. I can monitor whether he's cleaning or not.)

After wards he might be feeling sad about making his sister upset and then he wouldn't need a consequence--the lesson would be learned.

This is a theme that occurs a lot on this board (so not to pick on any one poster, most people said something very similar) -- and it's a concept I have a hard time with. Frankly, I'm not convinced he would learn a lesson from that. I honestly feel he's trying out this behavior -- can I get out of something? Right then, he doesn't feel like picking up/turning the light back on, or whatever it is. I don't think there's a deeper need - he just doesn't feel like it.

Does he have a clear idea 'lying'? No. Does he understand the differences between 'wishes' and reality. Yes. What I still don't hear is how to get him to understand that by telling me things that aren't true, it will undermine my trust. He's never had us not trust him -- how do you get that across to a child that it's a preciouos thing to lose?

[sparklefairy]

The natural consequence is that people don't trust what you say.

I tend to ask questions like, "which pen did you use to write on the wall?" rather than "did you write on the wall." But I guess that's entrapment.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

Right then, he doesn't feel like picking up/turning the light back on, or whatever it is. I don't think there's a deeper need - he just doesn't feel like it.

<snip>

What I still don't hear is how to get him to understand that by telling me things that aren't true, it will undermine my trust. He's never had us not trust him -- how do you get that across to a child that it's a precious thing to lose?

IMO, by modeling that you can be trusted to listen to his true feelings. What solutions include both *his* desire not to pick up/turn the light back on, or whatever it is, AND what you desire? By insisting that only someone else's feelings are relevant, he has no reason to share his true feelings (irrelevant to the solution). If they won't be honored, considered valid or addressed, what can he do to honor his own feelings and needs in the moment?

Let's turn it around. If dh asked me to go down the hall and turn off the light and I didn't want to do that right now, and I said "I don't want to turn off the light". And he was going to insist that I do it, what recourse do I have to have my feelings acknowledged? Naomi Aldort emphasizes validating the feelings "you don't want to turn off the light"; and many people find that the feeling of being heard and acknowledged creates enough connection that one WANTS to do what the other person wants. But, when there is no choice, it feels pretty distancing and disconnected, ime.

I am concerned that my suggestions may be perceived as criticism. I really believe that you want him to share his feelings, and want him to do what you want. I am hoping that there are ways that both can occur.

Pat

[Thao]

I wonder if you are underestimating your son's ability to understand the natural consequence. My dd understood it at a much younger age, I think at 4 or so. That's when we read the Berenstain Bear book that addresses lying and talked about it. She's always taken it very seriously and as far as I know has not lied to me. And she lectures her friends about the importance of telling the truth. But she's a very serious girl and I understand that every child is different. So I'm not saying if my kid can do it then yours can too. But neither do I think it's correct to just dismiss the idea that a young child can understand this concept.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by WuWei

IMO, by modeling that you can be trusted to listen to his true feelings. What solutions include both *his* desire not to pick up/turn the light back on, or whatever it is, AND what you desire?

Ah... that's the rub -- I'm cranky enough as it is about the toys around the house and me being the only one to pick them up. Dd is 2 1/2 and still in the "take everything out stage", and in order to get her to pick up, I need to follow her around and put objects in her hand (which is what I'm doing while ds is supposed to be picking up).

What I desire is more than a small path winding through the toys/books on the floor.

But, taking you're advice to heart, perhaps I'll phrase it as my need and see where that gets me. It really is only an issue about one or two nights a week.

Originally Posted by WuWei

I am concerned that my suggestions may be perceived as criticism. I really believe that you want him to share his feelings, and want him to do what you want. I am hoping that there are ways that both can occur.

Pat

No, I understand where you're coming from - just not sure I can do that all the time.

Originally Posted by Thao

I wonder if you are underestimating your son's ability to understand the natural consequence.

Hmm.... not sure. I'm just not sure he GETS it. He's such an introvert it's hard for me to judge. Maybe I should give him more credit and see.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by LynnS6

Ah... that's the rub -- I'm cranky enough as it is about the toys around the house and me being the only one to pick them up. Dd is 2 1/2 and still in the "take everything out stage", and in order to get her to pick up, I need to follow her around and put objects in her hand (which is what I'm doing while ds is supposed to be picking up).

What I desire is more than a small path winding through the toys/books on the floor.

What helps me to decrease the urgency of cleaning is to contain the mess. For instance, play on top of a large flat sheet or blanket, so that the bits and pieces can easily be scooped up and tossed in a play box or trash, or shaken outside. We have a playroom/workroom where we do crafts. It is behind a door, so that the bits CAN stay from day to day, without me feeling imposed on by the clutter. We work and play in that area and the rest of the house stays picked up. That meets my need for order and ds and friend's needs for crafting and free creative play without the hovering and urging to clean up constantly. Then, on an occasional basis, I clean in one contained area, instead of all floors, all rooms and all surfaces needing to be repeatedly decluttered. The former dining room is the play/work room. It is much more enjoyable to our whole family than a formal dining area.

Oh, having an introverted family member is challenging for me because they can take so long to consider their thoughts before speaking. I know dh feels pressured to respond to my questions and I am wondering 'why won't he just answer, already'? Restating what I hear him say, allows him time to reflect and clarify while I "patiently" wait. I am not consistently patient and then I am apt to get the answer he thinks I want.

HTH, Pat

[Piglet68]

My 4.5 year old has just started "lying" but I don't see it as anything other than a normal stage of mental development where she is experimenting with concepts of reality versus wishes, etc. I disagree that your son "certainly" knows the difference - he may not. Normal.

What I still don't hear is how to get him to understand that by telling me things that aren't true, it will undermine my trust. He's never had us not trust him -- how do you get that across to a child that it's a preciouos thing to lose?

1. It shouldn't undermine your trust. That is your issue, not his. If he were 2 and you asked him a direct question (which you may not, recognizing he wasn't reliable for that sort of information) and he didn't tell the truth, I doubt it would undermine your trust. You would probably laugh to yourself and say "that's what I get for asking a 2 year old!". Just go around with the notion that you cannot hold him responsible for monitoring events, be they his own actions or anybody else's. Set yourselves both up for success. As with many things in parenting, changing your perspective is what is needed.

2. If he's never experienced the loss of your trust, don't start now. He's far too young to hold that much responsibility.

3. You can't get a child that age to understand what it means to lose trust, anymore than you could probably explain what it's like to have heart disease after years of eating too many potato chips, and expect him to change his habits.

I'm fascinated by the way my DD can mix reality and fantasy. DH will come home and say "what did you do today" and she'll get it mixed up. It reminds me that their world is not as black and white as ours, their notions of Truth and Fiction are not well defined. Go easy on him (and yourself!). <hug>

PS - maya44 you still rock!

[maya44]

Originally Posted by Piglet68

PS - maya44 you still rock!

You are so sweet Piglet!

[chfriend]

My 6.5 year old still believes in Santa...she's getting iffy on the Tooth Fairy, who's been to our house a lot in the past few weeks. I'm not sure she ever bought the Easter Bunny, but this April the whole house of cards might collapse.

I figure anyone who is still young enough to buy that some fat guy in a red suit fills the stockings on Christmas is young enough to imagine that they left the lights on because they wish it hard enough.