the no-spanking law in CA?

[*mama moose*]

anyone have any info on this? I just saw it on the news local news. DH thinks its "crossing the line" into being too invasive and gives government an excuse to butt into peoples personal lives (though he is anti-spanking as well), and while I don't think it will pass, I think its a good idea. I mean, its illegal to hit adults, why not kids? any thoughts? I'm torn because I see what DH is saying about the government abusing it, but I also feel that spanking is so wrong and widespread it warrants legal action to help stop it.

[Papooses]

SACRAMENTO — A new bill wants to outlaw parents from spanking their children. The assemblywoman sponsoring the measure wants to protect those who can't defend themselves, but is it taking governing too far?

Spanking is a touchy issue for many people. Some use it. Others don't. An assemblywoman wants to ban all forms, even a slap on the hand.

Speaker Pro Temp Sally Lieber plans to introduce a bill that would ban any form of spanking of kids less than three years old. That's includes spanking hands, faces or bottoms. Lieber said, "That would include slapping, spanking, smacking, hitting, punching, any striking of a child."

Lieber said, "The borders begin to blur and there ought to be a bright line in the law that says no hitting a child 3 years or under."

We found parents on both sides of the spanking issue, but many, whether they agreed with spanking or not, felt the government shouldn't tell parents how to parent.

Karen Fontaine is both a parent and grandparent. She said, "What else are they going to do next, are they going to take over and raise our children?"

Kary Mansu is also a parent, "I think it's a moral issue. How do you put a moral issue into law? How do you control it?"

Copyright © 2007, KTXL

When the only citizens of our country who are legally allowed to be beaten on the buttox are children & pron stars, we have a problem -- not even prisoners are allowed to be spanked/swatted/etc. (hm, outside of Abu Graib anyway)....

Besides, when Sweden passed a similar law something like over 70% of the population condoned spanking, but I remember that within 10 years it dropped to barely double digits & they have not suffered any increase in crime or mental health issues because of it.

It just doesn't make any sense that a parent can cause sore bottoms when other methods work at least as well, but the same person cannot use spanking in the workplace or against any person of the same size.

[chaoticzenmom]

I'm ok with it...but I'm not in california. Anyway, as long as the law is supported by appropriate social aide, I'm all for it. I think that to say that parents cannot hit their child by law and just to leave it at that is wrong. There needs to be social support, free classes, public information supporting alternatives, lots of publicity for the law and how to discipline gently.

Without good support, the law will alienate a lot of parents.

Lisa

[Eben'sMama]

I am in complete support of such a bill. Spanking, even a slap on the hand, is violence and violence is wrong, both morally and spiritually. Children need to be protected from misguided adults who cannot control their own anger or who lack the emotional or intellectual resources to discipline their children without resorting to physical abuse.

[Mamma Mia]

On the surface I think it's good. Battery is battery is battery. And if I can be arrested for battery if I so much as spit on an adult, then why are kids treated differently? But I have to say that I reeeaally worry about the mamas who are struggling every day to break the cycle of abuse and trying to be GD and slip up. Should they pay $1000 fine or go to jail for a year? I mean, are their children served by the parents having so much less money (that amount would break my family) or by losing a parent for a year (another thing that would financially break us and more)? I see serious problems with it.

[Jster]

I think it's a great idea. But why is it okay to spank kids older than 3???

[jkg]

I think it's great. I'm all for freedom of parenting style, but hitting is hitting, no matter how you look at it. I wish my state would adopt such a law.

[the_lissa]

A few years ago, the Supreme Court of Canada made some laws about spanking. Children's rights groups and others thought they would outlaw spanking altogether, but they didn't. They said that spanking can only happen with a child between 2 and 12, on the bum, with an open hand.

So, it is better than nothing, but I wish they would have completely outlawed it.

Spanking is illegal in Sweden, I believe.

[Papooses]

Spanking is illegal in various nations....

I do agree with Mama Mia, but I'm optimistic that there would be an education/support component -- maybe I'm *too* idealistic?

[WuWei]

I don't believe that making something forbidden, even with consequences and punishments eliminates or addresses the underlying needs of the parent. IMO, parents could learn non-physical tools of conflict resolution. Laws and Rules don't teach *what to do* instead. But, corporal punishment is still used in the school systems of 21 states of the US. So, I rather focus energy on making corporal punishment obsolete, than going after parents who haven't learned alternative "discipline" methods. When the public educational culture embraces physical pain as a means of modifying behavior, it is hard to expect parents to do otherwise.

I am a proponent of learning without punishment, not laws with punishments.

Pat

[peacelovingmama]

I favor a law banning domestic violence against children of ALL ages. But I don't favor penal consequences at this point in time. Hitting children is simply too engrained in our culture not to put some serious education and outreach out there in combination with an advisory law (or one with mandatory parenting classes, counseling or support as a consequence).

Other countries that have gone this route have experienced tremendous success -- I lived in one (Norway) and loved that ALL Norwegians were protected from domestic violence. I say, it's about time the U.S. stepped up to the plate and similarly protected its children. Violence against human beings of all ages is wrong, wrong, wrong, and a very appropriate place for the gov't to draw a bright line.

[WuWei]

Originally Posted by peacelovingmama

I favor a law banning domestic violence against children of ALL ages. But I don't favor penal consequences at this point in time. Hitting children is simply too engrained in our culture not to put some serious education and outreach out there in combination with an advisory law (or one with mandatory parenting classes, counseling or support as a consequence).

Other countries that have gone this route have experienced tremendous success -- I lived in one (Norway) and loved that ALL Norwegians were protected from domestic violence. I say, it's about time the U.S. stepped up to the plate and similarly protected its children. Violence against human beings of all ages is wrong, wrong, wrong, and a very appropriate place for the gov't to draw a bright line.

Peacelovingmama, I am not going to disagree with you; but I believe I want to be the change I wish to see in the world. And that modeling an alternative path is more effective than making parents legally defensive about their behaviors through threats and intimidation. Laws and the lexicon of "wrongdoing" doesn't promote communication and mentorship dynamics, ime. I believe that effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that parents are born innately good and that our role as a society is to nurture their spirits as they learn about conflict resolution, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective teaching presumes that parents have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems. :

I trust that modeling compassion and cooperative problem solving changes the world.

Btw, our government chooses violence every day. It is parents making non-violent choices that changes society and therefore government, imo. We each have the power of influence in our communities, more than any law. We can advocate for awareness of feelings and needs and facilitate solutions which engage cooperation of both parent and child.

Respectfully,
Pat

[peacelovingmama]

Originally Posted by WuWei

Peacelovingmama, I am not going to disagree with you; but I believe I want to be the change I wish to see in the world. And that modeling an alternative path is more effective than making parents legally defensive about their behaviors through threats and intimidation. Laws and the lexicon of "wrongdoing" doesn't promote communication and mentorship dynamics, ime. I believe that effective discipline is based on loving guidance. It is based on the belief that parents are born innately good and that our role as a society is to nurture their spirits as they learn about conflict resolution, rather than to curb their tendencies toward wrongdoing. Effective teaching presumes that parents have reasons for their behavior and that cooperation can be engaged to solve shared problems. :

I trust that modeling compassion and cooperative problem solving changes the world.

Btw, our government chooses violence every day. It is parents making non-violent choices that changes society and therefore government, imo. We each have the power of influence in our communities, more than any law. We can advocate for awareness of feelings and needs and facilitate solutions which engage cooperation of both parent and child.

Respectfully,
Pat

I love your attitude and worldview! And I agree on many levels.

I do differ in that I feel that an advisory (NOT penal) law would accelerate the change we need to protect children. Just as we needed laws to protect adults from domestic violence. It is interesting to note that a vast majority of Swedes supported hitting children when their law went into effect and now a vast majority (generations after the law took effect) disagree with hitting people.

In any event, I'm glad that so many people here find violence against children to be wrong, no matter which way they would go about fostering non-violence.

[guestmama9915]

I live in CA, I doubt it'll pass, I wish it would, though!!!!

I just heard about this on another forum... non-AP forum, of course, where people are claiming they will need to move to another country soon. Someone even mentioned some law in Florida which made it illegal to smoke in the car with people under 18yrs old is crossing the line. :

Don't get it! I knew I would find supporters here.

This is a small step to show people that things are changing. Hitting children is wrong. Unfortunately, a lot of people just don't see it that way. I'm all for anything that helps change people's views.

[happeeevraftr]

I am definitely for a law banning the hitting of children, even if we can start with only children under three. (Maybe three years of not "being able" to hit would lead to parents coming up with better ways to teach kids, so they won't have to resort to it even when it's "legal".)

I think just having the law will help send the message that it's not okay. It's a moral issue. If we have a law against it, it means we think it's wrong to hit children. If there is no law, we (as a country/state) are condoning it.

However, I agree that punishing the parents isn't the best way to go. Maybe the "consequence" should be having to take some parenting classes. (Kind of like traffic school is an option if you get a ticket, as long as it's your first ticket in so many months, at least, that's the way it is here.)

But then, who decides what kind of parenting class/theory should be taught? It would likely end up being a class teaching other ways to "hurt" children that don't involve physical punishment, right? Which may help, but when those things don't work, the frustrated parents will feel like they still have to resort to spanking, because "the other stuff doesn't work."

But at least a law would ensure that parenting classes and books by pro-hitting "experts" would NOT be condoned by our government.

So, I don't know about the punishment for parents breaking the law, but I definitely think having a law would go along way in helping people realize how wrong it is to hit anyone.

[RiverSky]

I'm pretty sure it's against the law so spank in Canada.

I love the idea of that law, but indeed, all children should be protected by it, not just those under 3.

[mykdsmomy]

I think it's a dangerous law, to be honest. What happens when there's a mama with an autistic child who is trying to get that child into a carseat....she's holding the child down and the child is hitting and fighting her........it can often look like a struggle to many people and like the mother "must" be abusing/hitting the child during the struggle or at home.
I'm against hitting children and I think there needs to be more education out there....but passing a law is not the way to go (right now). People are still too close to the spanking era.....there needs to be more education before such a law should be passed to protect children from being taken from their parents unnecessarily

[WuWei]

Legislating morality is a scary thought to me. Whose morality? There is a strong religious political faction who is attempting to do just that.

Pat

[peacelovingmama]

Originally Posted by WuWei

Legislating morality is a scary thought to me. Whose morality? There is a strong religious political faction who is attempting to do just that.

Pat

I don't view laws against violence as improperly "legislating morality." They are for the health and welfare of our citizens. It is illegal for men to hit their wives, although it used to be legal. It is illegal to beat animals. It is illegal to have sex with children. Those could all be viewed as "legislating morality" but I am ok with those laws because they protect the vulnerable. Who could be more vulnerable than young children?

[heartmama]

This is a matter of safety. Many injuries happen without a parent ever intending to "beat" a child. The fact is that most spanking happens with reactive anger, and in those moments parents misjudge their strength. Suddenly a smack in the face is a ruptured eardrum, a blow with a belt becomes a split lip when the child turns to run away. Kids are bruised all the time from physical punishment.

If it's okay to pass a law saying parents must put our kids in carseats, then we can handle this law. It is no different to me. Parents are not lined up behind bars for car seat infractions. People understand that a child might unbuckle themselves, or that a parent might rush a child to the ER without remembering to buckle them in to a seat. We see parents driving around without carseats ALL the time. But the expectation is that they use them...and so most of the time, most parents obey the law.