Looking for answers not a pep talk please

[BlueIrises]

I have been posting here since my son was born 6w5d ago. BF is aweful! The mere fact that I say this makes me cry uncontrollably, but I hate it most of the time. I have been battling thrush, Raynaud's Syndrome, OALD, plugged ducts, engorgement for 5 weeks now. 95% of the time BF is excruiating. I've spent hundreds of dollars on a LC, $400 on a pump and parts, and I'm doing every conceivable thing to treat the thrush...GV, GSE, Nystatin, APNO, Diflucan, vinegar wash. I'm in pain and I keep chugging through hoping, wishing praying this is the week that things will get better. Frankly, I'm really feeling like I've done my best and it is time to move on. However, when I think about formula, I cry b/c BM is best. Yet crying and writhing in pain is not healthy for me or my son and neither is the frustration I feel toward him sometimes.

Everyone keeps telling me it will get better it just takes awhile...but at what cost. I feel like I have lost so much these past few weeks with my son due to the intense pain.

So what I am wondering is...is there anyone out there who kept BF and it didn't get better pain-wise but you stuck with anyway...and I mean pain not slight discomfort. I'd love to hear truthful stories on people who made it many months w/BF and it was toe-curling the entire time but you kept chugging through b/c of the health benefits.

P.S...it is not his latch...

[chaoticzenmom]

It looked to me like this is your first child and he's about a month old. The first month or two with the first baby is not fun or easy for most people. What I did was to use formula for the night, right before bed feeding, but give breastmilk for the rest of the day. I'm not sure why I did that, probably just to get some sleep, but it worked. He did not get nipple confusion and once I got a hang of the breastfeeding thing, he refused the bottles, I haven't had a problem since......3 kids later and I've always done extended breastfeeding.

It can be excrutiating at first, but it's so much more convenient in the longrun.

For advice....let me try. Take diflucan every 3 days for a few weeks and then once a month for a year. That's what I had to do GV worked for about a week at a time and we were purple for a month. One diflucan did nothing for me, but every 3 days worked like a charm. I got rid of the infection over a year ago and we had the infection for 4 months!! Yep, 4 months of yeast. That was the wort part and the most pain I ever had breastfeeding. That was my 3rd child though, so at least I had the rest already worked out. I can imagine that you're in a ton of pain.

I'd say to give it another 2 weeks to a month and then, if you can't get things worked out, you'll have to do something else. I can tell you though, it's all worth it when you can step out of the house with a few diapers and a box of wipes and not worry. I was always waiting around and inconvenienced by my bottle feeding friends when we'd go out....what a hassle they had to deal with.
Lisa

[quirkylayne]

I'm sorry it has been so hard for you

I read your list of thrush treatments but thought I might suggest cutting back on sugars in your diet as thrush prevention. Also, I saw you tried Diflucan but wondered if you and your bab were treated with Diflucan at the same time - that is the only thing that worked for us. I took one pill on a Monday and began a 14 day oral treatment for babe the same day. I also took another pill the next Monday.

[CathMac]

No pep talk.

I have no BTDT but I have picked up a little bit of info in the course of researching other topics. HEre are some possible suggestions: using a larger horn/flange, nursing &/or pumping while warm, evening primrose oil, prescription medication nifedipine (reportedly ok for use during BF'ing)

Here are some links:

Raynaud’s Phenomenon of the Nipple: A Treatable Cause of Painful Breastfeeding
Jane E. Anderson, MD*, Nancy Held, RN, MS and Kara Wright, MD*
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...ull/113/4/e360

The Health Report: Painful Breastfeeding (Raynaud's Phenomenon of the Nipple)
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/...s/s1181487.htm

Nipple blanching and vasospasm
http://www.kellymom.com/bf/concerns/...blanching.html

Web MD links
http://www.webmd.com/hw/health_guide...?printing=true

Medscape
http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/473219?src=mp

Treatments for sore nipples and sore breasts
http://www.kellymom.com/newman/03b-t...s_breasts.html

Links: Breastfeeding Issues – Mother
http://www.kellymom.com/bf/concerns/...lp-mother.html

Dead Link on Medela site but maybe someone else here will recognize the name of the organization.
http://www.gp.org.au/cls/raynaud.html
Raynaud's Syndrome and Nipple Vasospasm. The use of nifedipine is discussed and referenced. Nipple Vasospasm -- A Manifestation of Raynaud's Phenomenon and a Preventable Cause of Breastfeeding Failure. Laureen Lawlor-Smith BMBS IBCLC and Carolyn Lawlor-Smith BMBS IBCLC FRACGP

Raynaud's Syndrome and Breastfeeding
http://www.breastfeeding.com/helpme/...klc_ans45.html
Evening Primrose Oil
http://www.kellymom.com/herbal/ref/herbs_e.html

Considered safe for nursing moms. Reported useful for nursing moms who are trying to conceive. Also reported useful for treating postpartum depression, sore nipples during ovulation, PMS, fibrocystic breasts, Raynaud's syndrome and plugged ducts. EPO is derived from Oenothera biennis seeds and is an excellent source of essential fatty acids and their more complex metabolites GLA ( gamma linoleic acid). The suggested dosages that I have seen vary from 500-6500 mg per day for various problems: 500 mg per day has been suggested for breastfeeding moms with sore nipples during ovulation; 1000 mg 3 times a day for PMS or fibrocystic breasts. According to Hale, overt toxicity of this product appears to be quite low. No pediatric concerns have been reported. The Botanical Safety Handbook regards EPO as "safe when used appropriately." Overdoses of essential fatty acids have been known to provoke gall bladder attacks.

[alegna]

It was horribly painful for us in the beginning. We didn't have thrush, but I did have some Raynaud’s issues, and my nipples were blistered, torn up, cracked, bleeding and coming off in places.

I didn't give myself any choice. I refused to use any other nipples (bottles, pacifiers, nipple shields) because I wanted things to work right ASAP.

The first couple of months stunk. Wanted to scream every single time she latched on. She spit up blood (*mine*) It looked like one nipple was going to *come off* (cracked 75% of the way around... deep)

It was worth it.

-Angela

[NamastePlatypus]

Honey hugs hugs hugs. We dealt with this for FIVE MONTHES and I have seen other moms on here that went though it to. My only answer to you is..

Pump as much as you can! For about a month give her EBM and after she finshes her bottle her suck will be less severe and when you place her on the breast it will be a little easier. This way you can keep you supply up, still give her what is best and keep her familiar with the breast. This is how I got through those excruicating first months. I know some moms will say no bottle stick it out and you could do that, but if you are being affected as a mother you need to do what works best for you both. I was unable to let him finsh a session I was in so much pain. (I had a welt on the back of my head from slamming it into the wall, my palms bleed from diggin my nails into them, my legs would cramp I curled my toes so bad. I know what kind of pain you are talking about.) How can a newborn relax and enjoy a nursing relationship when mom is screaming in so much pain the neighbors come and check on you. Plus the tenser you are, less milk she is getting, which can affect her dramaticly.
Be sure that you BOTH are treated for thrush, orally and topically, once we were both treated that way, two round later we were on the road to recovory. I second the cutting down on sugar, stock up on probotics, and sun your bras to kill the yeast. Make sure your pump is disinfected everytime REALLLY well!
I hope that helps and PM me is you need to talk. I know how you feel and it is not impossiable to get through with out a great support system, but hard as hell!!

[corhorvath]

In no way did I have all of the things you list going on but I had a terrible time bfing my first. I didn't make it far, but we went for 5 months.

In my case, it probably was her latch and it never got better. It hurt every single time, I always had cracked and bleeding nipples, and I absolutely hated bfing. But, I kept doing it. My life was much different then. I had to move in with my parents when my dd was 1 mo in a new state and knew no one but my parents who knew nothing about bfing. I had no job, no insurance, no idea about how to do it any better. You can only get so much info out of books. When I had to go back to work, I tried pumping for days and got enough milk to make the bottom of the bottle wet. So, I quit. I was thrilled to quit! Now, I'm sad that things worked out the way they did. But, I'm proud that she at least got 5 months of EBF.

I wish you the best. It sucks to go through this-especially when you want so badly for things to work out. You're dealing with a lot-not just with bfing, but with your new baby. I really wish I could make this better for you. It's a very hard thing to get through.

[TurboClaudia]

aside from thrush (which sometimes can be toe-curling when breastfeeding just on its own), i have not dealt with the things you are currently challenged with. with our first son, i struggled with very painful thrush and then low supply which i tried to boost with lots of dollars worth of herbs, tinctures, pharmaceutical meds, pumping and so on.

i struggled with the question when is enough enough. when was i ready to throw in the towel and find an alternate milk source for him? finding time to pump while my baby cried was impossible, as i got very little pump output while i could hear him. once we got rid of the thrush, the pain was almost eliminated aside from the times he missed the nipple and would get the side of my breast or something like that.

you asked for answers, but i had to respond because there is not one right answer for all mamas. only you can decide what is the right answer for you. only you can decide when your struggling with the pain and disliking and even hating breastfeeding is affecting your special time with your new baby.

~claudia

[BlueIrises]

I forgot to mention that I am also taking probiotics...

Lisa-my ped wouldn't Rx the diflucan for my son...even as I begged and cried...

Quirky-I have not changed my diet...not as if I have time to eat anyway btwn all the feedings, treatments, occassional pumping and if lucky a nap...so my food intake is usually a bowl of Fiber One flakes mixed w/raisin bran, I munch on carrots alot or an orange, I do eat lots of pasta b/c it is quick, and occassional ice cream to make myself feel better. I am a very picky eater to begin with so to do the elimination diet would leave me with nothing to eat and frankly I just don't have the desire to do the diet which sounds so stupid since I am so overwhelmed w/this...I just draw the line at food restriction.

Cathmac-I bought large horns which did make a difference but I still don't get better output with them, when pumping I usually have to put the heating pad on my breast in order for anything to come out, and I just started the nfedipine on Friday...I will look into the EPO...boy am I on a lot of meds!

I am not anti-false nipples...I tried the nipple shiled in the beginning and it was just too much work even though I have flat nips...I use bottles with EBM and I use pacifiers b/c I just can't comfort nurse...we boil them daily and throw them out every couple of days and buy new ones.

I'm in NY and it is winter so sunning my bras is not really an option right now but I wash in vinegar and hot water...

Well thanks for the suggestions...last seesion not so painful but it might just be the Advil...I'm giving it until next Friday when I finish the Diflucan. I will have hit 2 months, I wanted to do 6 before I tried my next IVF cycle but I may just have to settle for 2 months...I hate to even type it but I'm just done with focusing on my boobs 24/7...I'd rather be focusing on my son 24/7

[Flor]

I found it truly painful for 6 weeks. I told myself that if it didn't improve by 6 weeks, I'd switch to formula, and just before 6 weeks, it got better.

[daniedb]

I did it through excruciating pain for the first 4 months. Off and on a pump, actually having to supp with formula a few weeks (~25% formula), nipple shields, blood, sweat and tears, quite literally. It took about 5 months for the pain to subside, and he ended up EBF until he was 16 months old, when he self-weaned.

It was absolutely, totally, completely worth it. However, if the PAIN HAD CONTINUED soory, nak - the way it was the first three months, i don't know that i would have been able to say the same.

helped me to set goals of weeks. i'll do this until 6 weeks. then, three monthd. then 6. helped to have a goal and allow myself to reevaluate whether or not to continue.

I admire you.

[BlueIrises]

Daniel-that's exactly what has kept me going so far is the goal...when I first gave birth I said 4-6 months b/c we are going to be doing another medicated cycle to get PG again over the summer and the hormone injections and BF don't mix...a few weeks back when I had my first bout w/thrush I said 6 weeks, hoping his growth would have helped out, @ exactly 6 weeks I got hit with 2 plugged ducts and a rip-roaring case of thrush again...so now I am holding onto 8w...crossing my fingers...

I give you alot of credit for doing it so long under such pain...how did your spouse deal with your pain & BF? Mine says it is so difficult to watch me in such pain and he thinks I should allow myself to quit guilt-free...but I find that so hard to do...Also, did you find the pain interupted w/your expected bonding experience w/your baby or what you thought BF would be btwn the two of you?

Thanks for sharing!

[CathMac]

Blue Iris,
NAK.

Hope this doesn't come across as a pep talk. I know how pointless and annoying that can be when you are desperate for concrete solutions. But I would feel remiss if I didn't tell you how much I admire you.

I'm pretty proud of myself and my problems paled in comparison. I'm having a good thought that things get better quickly,

BTW, I'm not really familiar with this problem but from the research I quickly skimmed I kind of got the impression that nursing/pumping while warm meant all over. The heating pad may be a more direct route but I'm wondering if you could set up in a small room with a space heater. I think this impression comes from the closing comment in one brief article that said at least the better weather is here (at the time the article was written).

Just a stray thought from someone that may be completely clueless.

~Cath

[Valian]

You are dealing with a different set of challenges then we did but I also went through toe-curling pain. I was hitting things and stomping my feet when Ds latched on so I could release it because I didn't want to disturb him by screaming out. Sometimes I made Dh let me squeeze his hand. I was not prepared to continue that way indefinately.

I saw you said nipple shields were too much work, did you mean shells? In our experience it was just put it on and go and they saved our nursing relationshpi. They both protected my nipple tissue from damage (which is important!) and did eventually make breastfeeding painless (after the nipples healed).

I read your PS and I was told the Ds' latch was great and just fine by IBCLC more than once. BUT, eventually it became clear that our pain DID come from Ds' physical anatomy. It wasn't a super pronounced thing, but his lower jaw was receeded just enough that he was latching onto the nipple shaft instead of the breat tissue. He was taking enough tissue into his mouth, but his lower gums came up only to the shaft and it was AWFUL!

I did reach a breaking point and decided I wouldn't nurse without shields no matter what people said about them being bad, because for me the ns at least dulled the pain and made nursing bearable. I couldn't think about 2 more weeks when I was dreading 2 hours from now. I would have switched to EP-ing before going to formula although I see that isn't an easy thing for you either. I showered before trying to pump and that really helped me with letdown.

[daniedb]

Originally Posted by BlueIrises

Daniel-that's exactly what has kept me going so far is the goal...when I first gave birth I said 4-6 months b/c we are going to be doing another medicated cycle to get PG again over the summer and the hormone injections and BF don't mix...a few weeks back when I had my first bout w/thrush I said 6 weeks, hoping his growth would have helped out, @ exactly 6 weeks I got hit with 2 plugged ducts and a rip-roaring case of thrush again...so now I am holding onto 8w...crossing my fingers...

I give you alot of credit for doing it so long under such pain...how did your spouse deal with your pain & BF? Mine says it is so difficult to watch me in such pain and he thinks I should allow myself to quit guilt-free...but I find that so hard to do...Also, did you find the pain interupted w/your expected bonding experience w/your baby or what you thought BF would be btwn the two of you?

Thanks for sharing!

Oh, wow...you sound like you've had an unbelieveable set of challenges. I will be praying for an 8w success!

DH really struggled with understanding why I persisted. He would find me, poring over the BF books about latch and all the stuff they say about BM being best, and how a proper latch is easy to get, and it shouldn't hurt, and I would be literally sobbing onto the pages and he just wanted me to feel okay. He encouraged me, but he also kept telling me that quitting was just as healthy a decision, and in my most challenging times, he would really ... what's the right way to describe? ... not push, or coerce, but he would suggest that it wasn't worth the misery to continue, that I would be happier and so would Henry, if we switched over to formula.

I would dread each feeding, and absolutely, I struggled with bonding with Henry - I vacillated between wanting to feed him and wanting to simply push him off the breast and scream the whole time he nursed. I yearned and longed to be one of those placid, feminine women in the pictures, beaming down matronly at their beloved infant, and instead, I cried - sometimes silently, sometimes out loud - held pens between my teeth to clench (and often break) when he began sucking, bleeding and torn and hating every single minute of it, but feeling absolutely dedicated and committed to making. it. work. no. matter. what. I felt as if I had been a colossal failure at the very first thing asked of me as a mom, and that completely destroyed and confidence I had in my mothering and parenting abilities. If I couldn't complete a simple biological process, how could I expect to raise this child as he deserved?

Even after establishing a harmonious BFing relationship with him for as long as we did, I still experience anxiety and panic almost every time I feed Benton. I didn't realize the connection until I started being conscious of the anxiety episodes I was having, and they all came right at the second I put Ben to the breast...I'm convinced it's leftover anxiety from that period of time that was so emotionally draining.

I hope that you find peace and rest and comfort as you struggle, please feel free to PM me if you want to talk more about anything that you don't feel comfortable about here, or just keep posting and I'll respond! As inPC as it might be to say, I would never judge you for using formula, so if you end up there and you need a shoulder to cry on, please feel free to use me for that. I remember giving him bottles of formula because I couldn't pump enough, and the tragedy of seeing that nasty, replacement milk flow into his mouth made me feel hatred for myself and disgust and hatred for the chemicals being poured into his body. It was impossible to feel even the slightest hint of positivity at the thought of him drinking formula, but I'm able to have a different perspective now, especially when there are so many other mothering and parenting choices to make, and so many other crucial things we can do as mothers.

It's a very difficult time, and I hope you are taking good care of yourself.

[bobandjess99]

Well..i havent beenthrough all you have, but i do have Reynauds, and i want to share that, in my case, after the first several months of BFing, (where i would have frequent attacks), i STOPPED having them!!!!
So there is hope....at least in that area.
Also, i started to HATE BFing when dd was about 16 months old...i perservered through a BAD time, literally toe curling ickies.....

[dillonandmarasmom]

((((((hugs)))))
I was there and did that for 11 painful, teary-eyed, teeth-clenching months...then I got pregnant and miscarried (was only nursing at night), milk disappeared, and I got bittersweet relief.

Like Alegna, I thought my cracked, peeling and bleeding nipples would just come off. I endured and tried it all. DS was treated for thrush, but I was not. I had a lame-o ped and really didn't know enough yet to understand what thrush was/how to treat it properly (didn't spend much time online back then).

nak-okay, now with dd our bf relationship started out the same way--if not worse, for about a month. I sucked it up and got through it. now, 21 months later, i barely remember those days. it was worth every excruciating suck.

on another note, from your post, i can see you eat a lot of simple sugars. can you switch to brown rice, whole grain pasta, and trade in carrots for, say, any other veggie? these are definitely working against any probiotic you use. air out the nipples and give them a smear of *plain* yogurt. Not only will it feel great, it will be getting a direct shot at those little thrush buggers. stay away from breast pads if you can--hopefully you are in a situation where going braless, or atleast, padless is a possibility. Let everything that touches your breasts get some sunshine after every wash, too.
I am sorry if I have been repeating other posters, I couldn't get through the entire thread...but i just had to post my experience to let you know that bf'ing can be more painful than childbirth...but just as rewarding if you keep going. Sorry--pep-talky--
Sending healing, positive, soothing energies in your direction!

[BlueIrises]

Valian-I find the nipple shield either slips off my nipple as he sucks or that it all starts getting sucked into his mouth...Isn't it suppoesed to lay flat and stay in place or do you find you have to work at it being on and staying in place?

My LC told me that he had a great latch, this was back when he was 12 days old...since then we have olny had phone consults...his lips curl out, tongue is where it should be. I now know to practice getting more of my breast in his mouth and it often takes several tries, but sometimes even when I have as much breast in there as possible and none of my areola is visible I come across one of two problems...one of the corners of his mouths pinches as he sucks...I try to keep my finger inserted there but that only helps a little...problem two w/his latch is his bottom jawrubs me in a very painful way, it feels like teeth grating me right at the line betwn areola and breast tissue and other times it cause a ring of fire feeling which I thought was just the thrush...I find that even if I change positions (football hold or cross cradle...the only 2 I can do) the problem still persists. I have no idea how to solve these problems.

I attended my first LLL meeting 2 weeks ago hoping for some hands on help and found the meeting was merely just a chat session and a bunch of BTDT consolling.

Daniel-your words resonate with me b/c they sound like everything I have been feeling and my DH has been saying the same thing. He hates that after getting overwhelmed with the pain I start to crumble and cry about all the horrible things and feel sorry for myself...why was it so hard to get PG and stay PG, why was labor so difficult (58 hours!) and now BF! HE hates that I spiral like that sometimes. I just feel like this might be my only PG and everything about has been an unbelievable struggle...but anyway, I won't go down that road now

I know I eat too many sugars and I need to change...I try to air them out as much as possible but I need the breast pads anything that touches my boobs kills esp my son...however I change them every 2-3 hours when he eats.

Thanks again ladies!

[Amris]

Originally Posted by BlueIrises

I have been posting here since my son was born 6w5d ago. BF is aweful! The mere fact that I say this makes me cry uncontrollably, but I hate it most of the time. I have been battling thrush, Raynaud's Syndrome, OALD, plugged ducts, engorgement for 5 weeks now. 95% of the time BF is excruiating. I've spent hundreds of dollars on a LC, $400 on a pump and parts, and I'm doing every conceivable thing to treat the thrush...GV, GSE, Nystatin, APNO, Diflucan, vinegar wash. I'm in pain and I keep chugging through hoping, wishing praying this is the week that things will get better. Frankly, I'm really feeling like I've done my best and it is time to move on. However, when I think about formula, I cry b/c BM is best. Yet crying and writhing in pain is not healthy for me or my son and neither is the frustration I feel toward him sometimes.

Everyone keeps telling me it will get better it just takes awhile...but at what cost. I feel like I have lost so much these past few weeks with my son due to the intense pain.

So what I am wondering is...is there anyone out there who kept BF and it didn't get better pain-wise but you stuck with anyway...and I mean pain not slight discomfort. I'd love to hear truthful stories on people who made it many months w/BF and it was toe-curling the entire time but you kept chugging through b/c of the health benefits.

P.S...it is not his latch...

I can honestly tell you that I have kept going even though, to this day (at 3 months old), DD hurts me quite badly every time that I put her to breast. DH often looks at me with obvious pity as she and I get started.

I also battled through thrush, yeast, vicious engorgement, mastitis, allergies to the medications, allergies to the nipple creams, cycles of yeast then bacteria then yeast... I could go on, but it's pointless, really. Just saying, I have gone through SO MUCH.

But I will be honest with you. I quit putting her to breast for a while, and just fed her, then expressed my breastmilk. I gave her a bottle during this time, crying every time because "once they take a bottle, they'll never go back to breast."

She did go back to breast, though, and although her initial latching on is still excruciating, and it's also excruciating when I let down (which is a few seconds after her latch starts to get comfortable, arg)... it IS getting better.

And when I get just outright too sore to handle the latch on (like today), I simply bottle feed for a day and pump.

Maybe that's the wrong thing to do, but at least she's getting my milk, and she's primarily at breast (for several days in a row, she'll be at breast, then I go back to bottle for a day to heal up).

[Demeter9]

This sounds like I could have written it 5 years ago when I was nursing my first.

It did take about 2 months not to be really horrid.

I found that I could avoid plugged ducts and the consequences of them with taking Lecithin.

I used castor oil on my breasts to help them let down easier. I used a hand held massager, and hot and cold compresses to ease the engorgment and plugs. Nice image, my husband laughed. It is quite the sight to see a woman with big boobs with a pump, smelling like castor oil, with hot rice socks on her breasts, shaking them with a hand held massager.

I have a theory, that it might not be yeast all the time (though I think it is pretty regularly). I think that some of us may have had too much bad transfats that have been incorporated into the make up of the cells in our glands - mammaries in this case. That it is making the glands "sticky and goopy." Like sticky platelets on rigid artery walls. That it might take a little while for the newly used mammaries to replace those cells, and that maybe if we eat better fats profiles the viscosity of the milk is a little better and encourages cellular replacement inside the glands.