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I dont get it? - Page 2

post #21 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by KayCSmommy View Post
I am not arguing just wanted to know, obvissly this is a very strong subject. When he was circed, sex was not on my mind. ( I mean he is a baby, him have sex, masterbating not something I want to think about) No one told me that there was any sexual side effects, I wasnt even aware that there were such thing as non-circed penis. I grew up around all girls, (mom, sisters and I, and niece) never seen un un cired penis except for my sons. Hell yeah it freaked me out when I saw it, I thought something was wrong with him. I was told it was just a piece of extra skin. I dont regret anything, because everything went fine and is fine now. If I had another boy would I get him circ. I dont know, but I would definatly look more into the subject. Thanks For everones opions! Makes me think about stuff, I never second guess.
The penis is a man's primary sex organ. Circumcision removes 1/3-1/2 of the skin on the penis. How could cutting a healthy, normal, standard part of it *not* have sexual side effects? We don't generally think of our children as sexual beings, but the reality is they're future autonomous adults. The fact that most American parents aren't considering this amputative surgery's effects on a future man's penis, without his consent, before he can assert his preferrences or have any say in the matter is precisely why circumcision doesn't belong within the realm of parental choice.

Just because he didn't experience immediate, surgical complications like hemorrhage, infection, or death doesn't mean he's "fine". His foreskin-and all of it's functions-are gone forever. It would be a good idea to start researching "foreskin restoration" so that when he's older you can apologize and explain his options. Foreskin restoration involves stretching the remaining shaft skin to recreate a covering for the penis. This helps soften up some of the dried, thickened skin, helping to restore *some* of the lost sensitivity. Some 100,000 men have gone through this type of non-surgical restoration.

Second guessing, especially when we discover something we didn't know before, is a very good thing. As parents, we learn as we go and none of us are perfect. It's essential to the health, happiness, and wellbeing of any future children we're blessed with to be honest about reconsidering our past parenting decisions so we can avoid making the same mistakes again.

Kudos to you for asking these questions and reading through the answers with an open mind!

Jen
post #22 of 83
KayCSmommy, circumcision started in USA 100 years ago.

Why?

To stop boys from masturbating.

Most of the world's men are intact, over 80% in fact. If we leave religious circumcision out, only USA circumcise baby boys.

This is where it all started;

"There can be no doubt of [masturbation's] injurous effect, and of the proneness to practice it on the part of children with defective brains. Circumcision should always be practiced. It may be necessary to make the genitals so sore by blistering fluids that pain results from attempts to rub the parts." -- Angel Money. Treatment of Disease In Children.Philidelphia: P. Blakiston, 1887. p.421

As far as foreskin itself.

Here is an excellent collection of info from Fathering Magazine;
http://www.fathermag.com/health/circ/

Here is another excellent information link - read the anatomy section. After that, you can hardly call foreskin 'just a piece of skin'?

http://www.infocirc.org/welcome.htm

Good luck with your research.
post #23 of 83
KayCSmommy,

All of the pp are being very gentle with you here although it may not feel like that...please understand that this is a very emotionally charged issue.

What stood out to me in your posts was the number of time that this question was posed to you during your stay at the hospital and at the clinic. Mamas, refresh my memory but isn't the APA against circumcision?
post #24 of 83
KCSmommy,

I only recently was enlightened to this topic....and it had a lot had to do with my 2nd pregnancy (since I had a girl for #1, I didn't have to think about it). And honestly, while I knew about the physical difference between a circumcised penis vs. an intact penis, I didn't take the time to become informed of this topic until I bumped into this particular website and this topic matter.

I asked many of my female friends with baby boys if they circumcised, to get their opinion, and they reported back all the misinformation that many people believe: hygenic reasons, locker room theory, daddy looks different theory....and well, that's all they came up with. But I had a male friend who told me he WASN'T circumcised, and he told me about the sexual pleasure, etc....it was a different viewpoint. I listened to their reasons for their decisions, and when I started conducting more research, I realized that there really isn't a true medical reason to circumcise. I was able to inform myself ahead of time, something it sounds like you weren't really able to do, since you didn't know all the pros and cons.

I think it is actually a GOOD thing you stopped by and asked your question...because I think many people never question it so therefore they just mosey along with the same thought in their head....never really finding out why, but just accepting it. But you DID stop by, and you asked. So if you have another little boy, give the subject true consideration. If you have other friend's who are pondering this topic, you at least know the alternatives, the WHY NOT to circumcise. Good luck with your research!
post #25 of 83
No medical organisation in the world including the AAP endorce circ now. If you were told that circ was healthier you were lied to. 80% of the worlds population is intact with no issues. My dh was circed like so many others he also suffers from common complications of circ that no one tells you about. Skin bridges, hair pulled up onto the shaft from to much skin removed. I could go on and on but the point is that every man who is circed looses between 30-50% of his potential to feel pleasure because when the foreskin is removed it takes off that much skin depending on the type of circ and who does it.


Here are some FACTS about what is lost when a boy is circed. I know it is a long list but please take the time to read it.

Reasons to leave your son intact:

- The owner of the penis should be the one to decide what to do with it.

-The foreskin, not the head, is the most sensitive part of the normal, intact penis.

- The movable shaft skin of an intact penis facilitates intercourse, reducing friction and prolonging pleasurable sex for both male and female.

- The foreskin aids in foreplay; lubricants are optional.

- An intact penis will have no circumcision scar, will often have less hair drawn up onto it shaft, and will on average be somewhat larger than a circumcised penis.

- The foreskin protects and lubricates the head or “glans” of the penis for the life of its owner. The glans or the head of the penis was never meant to be a external organ it should be inside the foreskin to protect it and keep it sensitive.

-80-85% of the world’s male population has intact genitals, including nearly all European males (please note that HIV/AIDS rates are actually lower in Europe than in America). Circumcision does NOT prevent AIDS wearing a condom does.

- 80% of the world’s circumcised men in the world are in the US. 80% of the world’s Viagra sales are in the US. Coincidence?

- When people from non circumcising countries hear that we in the USA still do it they are usually shocked, and often don't believe it to be true.

- Care of the intact infant penis is actually much easier as there is no wound care, you just wash it like a finger, it should never be retracted by anyone other than the child. The age it becomes retractable varies greatly normal range is childhood to adulthood.

- The foreskin contains three to four feet of blood vessels, 240 feet of nerves, and 10-20,000 specialized nerve endings.

-Male circumcision permanently diminishes the sexual feelings for both male and female.

- When the foreskin is removed 30-50% of sexual pleasure goes with it. Because 30-50% of the total penile skin is removed during a RIC depending on the Dr. and the type of circumcision that is done.

-The circumcision rate in the USA has fallen from 90% in 1970 to roughly 56% today.

- Circumcisions was originally introduced in the country in the late 1800s to prevent masturbation. It has since been touted as the cure for all sorts of ailments - none of which are scientifically provable are even remotely true.

- Cutting off the foreskin cuts off the most sensitive, erotic, pleasurable part of a man’s body. The foreskin plays a very important role in sex. Men who were circumcised later in life compare circed sex/intact sex to black and white TV and plasma TV. HUGE DIFFERENCE.
-Circumcision is almost NEVER medically necessary. The only true medical reasons for circ are, frostbite, gangrene and cancer (all of those would be extremely rare) The incidence for necessary medical circumcisions is less that 0.05%.

- No medical organization anywhere recommends routine infant circ.
http://www.cirp.org/library/statements/

- Circumcision is EXTREMELY painful, even if anesthetic is administered. Studies have proved that babies feel pain even more acutely than an adult would. It is a very great breech of trust for a baby to be taken from his parents and cut. It is very violating. Long after any anesthesia that might(most only get a sugar dipped rag or paci to suck on) have been used wears off there is still a raw open wound sitting in urine and feces with no pain relief.

-The intact penis, if left alone, has no greater risk for UTI's, STD's, Penile Cancer, HIV, causing Cervical Cancer in women.

UTI myth http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/
http://www.nocirc.org/statements/breastfeeding.php
Quote:
In fact, UTI's are so rare in any case that, using Wiswell's data, 50 to 100 healthy boys would have to be circumcised in order to prevent a UTI from developing in only one patient. (Using more recent data from a better-controlled study, the number of unnecessary operations needed to prevent one hospital admission for UTI would jump to 195.
http://www.cirp.org/news/1997.12.22_PhysiciansWeekly/
FORESKINS: Seek Elsewhere for Infants' Urinary Tract Infections

http://www.cps.ca/english/statements...ION%20OF%20UTI
UTI Neonatal circumcision revisited


http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/UTI/mueller/
THE INCIDENCE OF GENITOURINARY ABNORMALITIES IN CIRCUMCISED AND UNCIRCUMCISED BOYS PRESENTING WITH AN INITIAL URINARY TRACT INFECTION BY 6 MONTHS OF AGE
- Girls have a much greater risk of UTIs, yet we wouldn't cut off their clitoris or labia to prevent them.

Cancer Society:http://www.cancer.org/docroot/CRI/co...evented_35.asp
Quote:
In the past, circumcision has been suggested as a way to prevent penile cancer. This suggestion was based on studies that reported much lower penile cancer rates among circumcised men than among uncircumcised men. However, most researchers now believe those studies were flawed because they failed to consider other factors that are now known to affect penile cancer risk.
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/cancer/
Quote:
Gellis (1978) said there are more deaths from circumcision than from cancer of the penis.8
Boczko et al . found numerous reports of penile cancer in circumcised men, thus conclusively disproving Wolbarst's false claims of protection from penile cancer by circumcision.9
In "Circumcision: An American Health Fallacy," Edward Wallerstein writes14: "If infant circumcision reduces penile cancer we could expect to see proportionately less penile cancer in circumcising nations as compared to non-circumcising ones. No such difference is found."
Quote:
Preston established quite clearly that there was little evidence to support a relationship between lack of circumcision and penile cancer, cervical cancer, or cancer of the prostate in 1970 but he was unable to identify the causative agent at that time,6 while Leitch did the same in Australia.
Circumcision and AIDS/HIV
http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV.html
http://www.cirp.org/library/disease/HIV/ http://www.cochrane.org/reviews/en/ab003362.html
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcisi...Statement.html

Comparison of North America to other non-circ countries HIV status
http://www.avert.org/america.htm
http://www.avert.org/worldstats.htm
- The times the intact penis has trouble are when it is forcefully retracted before it is ready. The penis should only be retracted by its owner, when he’s ready. It is normal to not be retractable until after puberty. It is not a problem.

- Circumcision is SURGERY and as such poses significant risks of infection to the wound.
Possible complications include but are not limited to:
Infections;
Botched circumcisions that have to be redone;
To tight circumcisions that cause extreme pain with erection;
Hair on the shaft;
Loss of sensation in the glans (head), it becomes keratinized (hardened) without the foreskin;
Amputation of the part or all of the penis;
Ruptured stomach, bladder, and or intestines from crying so hard;
Skin bridges
Adhesions
Scaring on the penis shaft
Meatal Stenosis http://www.cirp.org/library/complications/persad/
DEATH
and much much more.
It is estemated that between 10-15% of all males will have at least 1 or more of the complications listed above. But none of these side effects are present when leaving a boy intact.

Links of pictures Warning graphic pictures
http://www.circumstitions.com/Restric/Botched1sb.html
http://www.noharmm.org/IDcirc.htm


- There are NO medical benefits with routine infant circumcision. It is a cosmetic surgery, and as such more insurance companies will NOT pay for it.

- Circumcision is big business in the US. Several billions of dollars every year. Doctors are very invested in keeping the circumcision myths alive.

- A single doctor can make $20,000 a year doing circumcisions.

- A little known fact is that foreskins are then resold to the highest bidder. They are used in cosmetics, skin growth for grafting, cancer treatments and much more. The after life of foreskins is also a multi billion dollar a year industry. Parents are not told about this. There is no informed consent. Certainly the foreskins owner doesn’t have a say in the matter.

- “Every boy born in the US has a $300 coupon attached to his foreskin. All you have to do is cut it off to redeem.”

- Circumcision should only be performed on consenting adults who know all that is entailed.

-What if your son wants his foreskin?

- A lot of men are very angry when they find out the truth and feel very violated. (like my husband.)

- How would you feel if someone cut off your clitoris and labia without asking you? They do it in Africa all the time. We are horrified when little girls are mutilated. Why not when little boys?

- It causes immense trauma & physical pain to a brand new baby who just had to undergo birth. Often times a baby will suddenly cease crying and so the Doctors say it doesn't hurt them. It does - they are in shock.

- Smegma isn’t bad or gross. It is the Greek word for soap. Women have it too. It helps keep everything clean and healthy. No intact boy should be forcefully retracted just to clean it out. It’s supposed to be there!

- When they separate the foreskin from the glans it is similar to ripping off your fingernails. Than they crush the foreskin and cut it off - most often with NO pain relief. They also stimulate an erection so they “know where to cut.” A boys first sexual experience is one of great pain and trauma.

Common myths you may hear from others and even Dr's:

http://www.coloradonocirc.org/myths.php

Why men may insist on circumcision article

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/v...ty_of_men.html

Side by side comparison of MGM & FGM
http://www.circumstitions.com/FGMvsMGM.html

post #26 of 83
Hi, new poster, sorry, I haven't read all the responses on the 2nd page yet, pardon me if this was already said.

Just wanted to put this out there, removing the foreskin of a little boy in nerve endings is the equivalent of removing a baby girl's clitoris along with other vital parts of a little girl.

No one here in this country knows this because this is a country of mostly circumcised men. If it was reversed, if it was routine for doctors to tell you of all the health benefits of removing your little girls clitoris, and you did it, and you had yours removed before you could remember, and every other woman you knew had theirs removed before they could remember, most women would not be aware of how sensitive the clitoris and how pleasurable the clitoris makes sex.

Thus is the same with boys. I know this because my husband is circumcised. He is going through the process of restoring his foreskin. He never thought he missed it, it wasn't a big deal to him. It was hard for me to convince him to give it a shot.

NOw that he is restoring, there are sensations there that he never dreamed he could ever have during sex. And yet, even so, it will never be the same as if it would have been if he had had his natural foreskin.

all baby boys deserve the right to experience their body the way it is at birth, and it is not right for doctors to try to convince moms that they should have parts of their baby boys removed. The same rights of girls should apply to boys.

sorry, it's late, my toddler is up, if that didn't make any sense.
post #27 of 83
So, the clinic that circ'd your son, will they also circumcise my daughter?

My DD's right to genital integrity is protected by law, not so for my son. It's a human rights violation either way around.
post #28 of 83
Boys are born with a foreskin for a reason, otherwise they would be born without one! That was enough "proof" of the importance of leaving him intact that I needed. And I too didn't think of the "sexual" nature of my infant son, I only took into consideration that God made him perfect, who was I to believe that he needing "fixing?" It just makes me so sad that you weren't given the information you needed to make an informed choice.
post #29 of 83
I just have one question...

What if your son is extremely unhappy with his penis when he's older because of his circ?

Lots of men feel violated and robbed because of circumcision. Just go to www.norm.org to see what thousands of men go through in order to try to get their penises somewhat back to normal (although all the nerve endings, the ridged band, and th frenulum can never be restored). It is so sad to see this society act like it's "no big deal". But it IS a big deal to a LOT of men. What's done is done for your son. I hope you think about what your future sons would want. At least boys kept intact will have a CHOICE. PLEASE think about what your sons would want, not what you want. It's NOT YOUR PENIS.

And I really hate to break it to you, but your son was not given pain relief. If they used any pain relief, they did not give it time to take effect, hence making it worthless. The procedure itself takes 10-15 minutes. And it's usually done in a soundproof room. You weren't allowed to go back because you would have freaked when your son started shrieking. They brought him back to you sleeping probably, right? He wasn't sleeping. His tiny body shut down from being in so much pain.

And really, you don't know that your son's penis is fine. You won't know that until he's fully grown and chances are, he's not going to tell you if there's something wrong with it at that point. My husband's penis skin SPLIT OPEN multiple times when he was a teenager, because he wasn't left with enough skin to grow into. But I guess that's no big deal huh? Of course, he didn't tell his mom. He didn't tell anybody. Until me. It's obvious that it's a result of his circumcision, because of where the scar is. That could be your son one day. Please spare your future sons the pain. Both the physical and the emotional.
post #30 of 83
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bandgeek View Post
I just have one question...

What if your son is extremely unhappy with his penis when he's older because of his circ?

Lots of men feel violated and robbed because of circumcision. Just go to www.norm.org to see what thousands of men go through in order to try to get their penises somewhat back to normal (although all the nerve endings, the ridged band, and th frenulum can never be restored). It is so sad to see this society act like it's "no big deal". But it IS a big deal to a LOT of men. What's done is done for your son. I hope you think about what your future sons would want. At least boys kept intact will have a CHOICE. PLEASE think about what your sons would want, not what you want. It's NOT YOUR PENIS.

And I really hate to break it to you, but your son was not given pain relief. If they used any pain relief, they did not give it time to take effect, hence making it worthless. The procedure itself takes 10-15 minutes. And it's usually done in a soundproof room. You weren't allowed to go back because you would have freaked when your son started shrieking. They brought him back to you sleeping probably, right? He wasn't sleeping. His tiny body shut down from being in so much pain.

And really, you don't know that your son's penis is fine. You won't know that until he's fully grown and chances are, he's not going to tell you if there's something wrong with it at that point. My husband's penis skin SPLIT OPEN multiple times when he was a teenager, because he wasn't left with enough skin to grow into. But I guess that's no big deal huh? Of course, he didn't tell his mom. He didn't tell anybody. Until me. It's obvious that it's a result of his circumcision, because of where the scar is. That could be your son one day. Please spare your future sons the pain. Both the physical and the emotional.

Thank You for answering my questions, I understand both sides. Which was not explained to me, at either the hospital or the clinic. Maybe instead of being angry with people like me, that were never informed. You should get the word out there to other Moms. Being angry at something that is already done, does no good, giving preventive positive info to others is!
I hate to argue, but I was in the room when my son was circumsised. If you would have read all my threads you would have known this.
I was standing by the door with a nurse. The doctor explained everything that she was doing. They did give him pain killer, it was general anesthetics, (like what the dentist does to work on your teeth) it doesnt take long for it took work. He jumped when they gave him the anesthetic, that was his only negitive reaction. He never once cried, or acted stressed or unhappy. He just watched the dr and nurses, as they worked. Afterwards she showed me how to care for him for the next few days. Then I wrapped him back up and cuddled him. (While crying)
Your right I didnt think about his future sex life, because I wasnt aware there was an affect on it. I thought that the circumsised penis was the way that it was suposed to be, so I never saw it as a unnessary prodedure. I was told that it was normal easy in and out surgery, with little to no side effects. That it was easier for them to care for and keep themselves clean with a circ, that they would be less likely to have, UTI's, STD's, and better for them. Verses leaving it as is with no benifits, and with no, to very little side effects. So I chose what I thought was best. I have no regrets, because living with regrets, does you no good, learn from it and then live. (Dont cry over spilt milk)
Believe me if my son comes to me one day and asks why he had the surgery, then I will tell him the same thing I am telling you.
As for now he is a perfectly WHOLE, and happy baby. There is nothing wrong with him. He is the same baby before and after.

Thanks for answering my questions, and all the information I should have known, but didnt! Have a nice night!
post #31 of 83
This thread makes me really really sad.
I wonder why it is that there is such outrage toward fgm, but not towards mgm. Probably redundant, off topic, sorry- it just breaks my heart that it's okay to cut off parts of babies for no reason and then sell those parts to companies. And that people do it over and over again so that their babies will "match." Really disturbing.
post #32 of 83
You mean "local anesthetic", general is when someone is put to sleep, completely unconscious. Regardless...Regret isn't a bad thing. Admitting you didn't have all the information on which to make an informed choice isn't a bad thing, either. We all make mistakes. Now you know that circumcision does have a tremendous impact on future sexuality, obviously it would have been better to leave the decision to the person the penis belongs to and who will live with the results of such a decision his entire life. Denial doesn't benefit anybody. Your son is missing part of his penis; his penis isn't whole. Little girls who are missing bits of their genitals as a result of FGM aren't whole either. Your son lost something that most men find extremely valuable.

Regret doesn't mean beating yourself up. It doesn't make you bad mother. It makes you an honest, conscientious person who admits to their mistakes and strives to make better choices in the future. Admitting a mistake takes courage, and sets an excellent example for our children: We're only human.

When you know better, you do better.

Jen
post #33 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by KayCSmommy View Post
I thought that the circumsised penis was the way that it was suposed to be, so I never saw it as a unnessary prodedure.
Okay, not being snarky, but this is the part that really really gets me...regardless if you had never seen an uncircumcised penis before, why on earth would a person think that a healthy whole baby is born with one of his parts not how they are "supposed to be"? I just don't understand it. What do people tell themselves to allow themselves to believe that every baby boy born in the world needs to have a "piece of skin" removed from a part of his body? I'm not talking about religion. I'm talking about the ignorance behind it all, blindly listening to the medical "authority" and doing no research on ones own...and the total callousness for the trauma and lack of bodily integrity given to one so small. It really breaks my heart. I just have to keep telling myself that this will change one day in America. One day it will not be anymore legal to chop off a piece of my son than it is to chop off a piece of my daughter.
post #34 of 83
I'm sorry, I thought I read that they wouldn't let you in the room. I will go back and re-read the thread.

I'm not angry about what is done. What makes me angry is when people are presented with facts and claim they will still do it again. You were horribly misinformed the first time. But to choose to do it again, when you know the inevitable consequences is unfogivable, in my eyes. The only reason I bothered posting all that is because you said you weren't sure about future sons. If you had said, "oh, I was wrong, I won't do it again," I would have congratulated you on your decision and left it at that. But since I have experiences and information to share that could possibly change someone's mind, I share it. It's important for people to realize how much circ can damage a man. I tell everyone who is pro-circ, or on the fence, the same thing I've told you, so don't feel like I'm singling you out. The only way people will know is if we keep talking about it.
post #35 of 83
What I'd like to know is how this clinic gets away with giving out such blatantly inacurate information.
post #36 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by eepster View Post
What I'd like to know is how this clinic gets away with giving out such blatantly inacurate information.
The same way the rest of the clinics, hospitals, and doctor's offices in this country get away with it....because people believe it. The only way it'll stop is if they start getting sued...which will eventually happen. This generation, I suspect. Our kids will have the right information and they will go back and demand answers as to why their parents were tricked into signing them up for unnecessary surgery.
post #37 of 83
Quote:
Originally Posted by KayCSmommy View Post
everything went fine and is fine now.
Here we reach a fundamental difference. He is not "fine". Fine implies that everything is healthy and good. When you remove the foreskin you are crippling the function of the penis. Sure, a man can still have sex if he is circed however the penis does not work the way its intended to work. Read some of the links above for more info on this.

He may not have cried during the process, many babies don't because they go into shock and fall asleep as a way to deal with the tremendous pain. Even if a numbing cream is used the baby still feels the circumcision because the cream only numbs the outside and does nothing to prevent the feeling of the head of the penis as the foreskin is being seperated nor does it numb the inside of the foreskin at all.

Unfortunately, most doctors don't understand this at all either. Many of them have very little experience with an intact penis and they were not taught anything in medical school. They report tiny possible medical benefits and completely ignore and downplay the impact of the surgery and the long term problems associated with altering the penis.

I hope you find your way on this journey of knowledge. It took me a long time to understand and absorb it all. I do hope you will keep your mind open and learn.
post #38 of 83
As for now he is a perfectly WHOLE, and happy baby. There is nothing wrong with him. He is the same baby before and after.

you have to understand that people are not angry to you but angry to money greedy doctors and hospitals who continue to slice babyboys. It is easy money(+the resale value of foreskins to cosmetic&medical industry).

If you had born in any other country(outside religious circumcision)you would have not even heard the possibility of circumcision.

We indeed are trying to get the word out. Individual people + many many organisations fighting day and night to get the truth out there.

The truth is however that your son is not whole. He will never experience the sex how nature intended, he has lost the most sensitive part of his body. The final results of his circumcision do not show up until he is adult.
You do not carry the consequencies of his circumcision, your son will.
I am not saying this to hurt you or to be mean.
Please study the issue and maybe you can join with everyone who is fighting against this madness.
We have achieved a lot. While only few years ago circ rates in USA were near 100%, they have dropped to near 50%.
All this has happened because of individuals who are giving their time and money to stop the mutilation.

Attorneys for the Rights of the Child
http://www.arclaw.org/

Mothers against circumcision
http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org/fleiss.html

Doctors opposing circumcision
http://www.doctorsopposingcircumcision.org/

Nurses for the Rights of the Child
http://nurses.cirp.org/

Students for Genital Integrity
http://www.studentsforgenitalintegrity.org/

AAP
http://www.medem.com/MedLB/article_d...DD&sub_cat=108

http://www.math.missouri.edu/~rich/MGM/primer.html

http://www.hisbodyhisrights.net/

Just to mention few..
post #39 of 83
No one is angry at YOU, KayCSmommy, it's just we're angry at the system that allows these things to continue because of the financial reward. And if it hurts the babies, well who cares because they can't speak and form protest groups, etc. That is what many medical personnel think. In countries where circ is declining, some still offer it and use the excuse of "If the parents want it, it is their decision and I perform the surgery." Sure, that may seem neutral and neat and professional but it is practice completely devoid of ethics or the well-being of the child in mind.

Heck, I bet there are doctors in Africa who don't champion the positives of FGM (like there are any you might say, ah but in those nations they offer up the same old "benefits" we use) but will still perform it cause it's up to the parents. Here, everyone gets all outraged that a doctor could do their job with such a lack of ethics and conscience. But it goes both ways, you see. It is unfortunately left to adults to do the job for these boys who cannot speak. Because if you tried doing it to a conscious toddler who can speak and fend for themselves somewhat, the child would immediately freak out.

And 99% of the population knows that, so some choose to do it at birth because they won't remember the trauma. Now that's just cruel and a prime example of denial. When someone despite all the evidence still maintains the circ didn't hurt their son or alter his physical apperance, it's shrugging off the reality. You can pass it off but it'd be neglecting the feelings, the soul even, of your newborn. And to do it to other sons just strengthens the likelihood that the cycle of violence will continue.

Still, with rates falling, maybe one day a son like yours will not do the same to his son whether it be because medicare doesn't cover it, it has declined in popularity in the region or because he realized the facts and felt it unecessary. No matter how bad pro-circ forces try to weild their profiteering might to prolong circ, the tide is turning in America and it's leading circumcision to becoming a rarity (at the rate it's been falling over the last 25 years in the U.S., it is projected to be at just 10% by 2050, likely at around 1/3 by the time most of today's boys born today reach fathering age).

You'll see the circ-happy community go to extreme lengths in the future, probably they'll find some epidemic or disease and they'll keep claiming AIDS, STDs and HPV are caused by it, etc. (even though the mostly circ'd USA is one of the world leaders in most of these disease rates while the mostly intact male pop. of Europe has made for way lower levels). And they can make facts lie to prove this, but believe me the intactivists aren't skewing many facts and even if they were, there are so many out there that just can't be denied because studies and analyses by legitemate bodies have shown the truth. And just cause you can't see the change from the outside or re-live the procedure doesn't mean it didn't happen and didn't wreak havoc on his little body.

It'd be a nightmare scenario for anyone to go through circ and the after-effects are almost as bad as they can hurt psychologically. But here in the "advanced" American medical society, the rudimentary genital cutting down in third world countries is somehow the only real human rights violation? Look, if they had our equipment they'd do it in the more organized way, would that not please those voices? Hell, it could be made up that girls can be cut at birth with the simplest of procedures (not the infibulation extremity) but it wouldn't hurt. Even fooled into thinking that, most of society would object to female circ because "it takes away an essential part of the female anatomy."

And that is a core reason intactivists dennounce MGM but all we hear is comparison between the male foreskin and the coxic bone or the appendix even though all animals have evolved to have foreskins. Many people have been brainwashed into believing a foreskin is such a harmful piece of skin that is so difficult to care for and that a wound is somehow cleaner (even if the possibility of sexual side effects, adhesions and meatal stenosis presents itself-all happen with more far-reaching effect than the odd infection, UTI or other ailment). It's such hogwash when you take a good look at it all.

And to imagine the absolute trauma, let me put it this way; obviously a woman or man would find it torture to be tied down and have their big toe nail ripped out (what it feels like to have the adhered foreskin seperated from the head). Try having that feeling plus the unanesthisized (or weakly at that) feeling of your foreskin being shorn off your genitals in whatever way (there are more methods than one sadly enough). Oh, and to add to this you just entered a strange new place in the past few days, can't talk, can't walk, can barely do anything but scream and flail around. Oh but BTW, your legs (and maybe arms) are tied down so you don't squirm. Christ, a surgery like this could be put into a movie like Hostel and not seem out of place at all when you really think about it.

Before I ever knew the true horror of circ, it just seemed like a funny little thing made light of by comedy routines and Jewish jokes. But it's no laughing matter in the end and all the people here at CAC have discovered that it's way too much hoopla to go through to want your boy cut. It's a better and safer route to leave him intact because once a circ is done, there's no going back all the way (restoration doesn't restore all of the sensation that was there and it does not come overnight either). At least when you're intact, you can treat your problems or make the decision if it was truly wanted. But in a society where all people saw MGM this way, the social pressures and conformity crap would be moot and even more intact males would be less willing to part with their foreskin than is seen now in a mostly circ'd nation such as the U.S.
post #40 of 83
gorgeous post anony. you summed it up perfectly.
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