I dont get it? - Page 4

[TigerTail]

It's so funny, the guy I know circ'd for UTIs *still* has chronic UTIs, but lost the ability to orgasm forever! Isn't that a hoot? (Maybe it was the 12 pack of Pepsi daily & NOT his infernal scary foreskin?)

[the_lissa]

Originally Posted by Inspired007

This is misinformation. I am leaving this forum b/c I don't want to create an uproar. I apologize if I've stepped on any toes. I see that you all feel strongly about this issue and since I am on the fence (just presenting a few facts) I will leave it as is.

Toodles.

No it is not misinformation at all. And foreskin does have a purpose to this day. I would love to know what pourpose you think the foreskin used to have, but doesn't any more.

[wytchywoman]

Originally Posted by Inspired007

There is a reason to remove tonsils and appendix; because they've gotten infected or if the appendix is about to burst. It's funny that you mention tonsils and appendix b/c they actually serve about as much purpose as a foreskin. Our bodies (and our environments) are products of evolution. At one point, tonsils and the appendix (and foreskin for that matter) were needed and served a great purpose. Now, evolution has dictated that these anatomical parts can cause us grief. Tonsils are removed b/c children and adults are sometimes prone to horrible reoccuring strep infections; People sometimes remove their appendixes b/c of infection as well (when they rupture). I know of one really severe case for the removal of foreskin (as I described above) so I know that there is a reason for it, but since every little boy will be different you'll never know if yours will be the one to suffer problems or not. I've only had one case of tonsilitis in my life so there was no need to remove my tonsils but you can't discount the thousands of children who have in fact suffered. And since the benefit of removing the foreskin can outweigh the risk then I understand why many parents make this decision.

I do agree that no one should just undergo something like this without understanding why. To say that "everybody else does it" would be stupid in any situation. Why do you wash your car? "Everybody else does it?"

My point behind saying that is this: Once upon a time, not so long ago, everyone who turned five used to be admitted to the hospital to have their tonsils taken out. My mom was one of them. This was standard procedure. Many, many, many kids suffered through a very painful surgery because a bunch of dillweed dr's thought it would be a good idea to remove a piece of skin hanging in the back of the throat, "just in case". FINALLY the medical community wisened up a bit and saw the outrageousness of doing this to kids and stopped it. My dad had his appendix taken out as a teen and to this day has no idea why they did it. He recalls being happy and healthy and not sick at all and being told one day that he had to have surgery. he sadi he questioned my grandpa about it later in life nad gpa mumbled something about a histpry of appendicitis in the family and the dr putting heavy pressure on gpa and gma to have it taken out "just in case" my dad had problems with it on down the road. To involve this surgery now on a kid who didn't need it would be cause for public outcry. Why is it not the same for circs? If a circ is "medically warranted", ( which BTW I really can't think of a reason why it would be but I'm not a dr so will concede the point) then I will say no more. If it is truly needed, then get one. But to do a surgery on a newborn baby, just because they might have trouble later makes no sense. To me, circing and taking the tonsils out are the same thing. If you wouldn't do one to a newborn, then why do the other? KWIM?

Namaste,

Michelle

[sophiekat]

oh, and my dh also has scientific training (he's a doctor) and he's also done research on this issue -- and concluded that there is no reason to circumcise absent cancer, frostbite, or gangrene

[Baby Makes 4]

Originally Posted by KayCSmommy

(Dont cry over spilt milk)

It's not spilt milk, you amputated a part of your son's body without his consent.

[falcon]

Originally Posted by TigerTail

It's so funny, the guy I know circ'd for UTIs *still* has chronic UTIs, but lost the ability to orgasm forever! Isn't that a hoot? (Maybe it was the 12 pack of Pepsi daily & NOT his infernal scary foreskin?)

poor man!

I'm seriously that there are so many mamas who wander these boards and have no clue about this issue.

[sophiekat]

perhaps this will eplain inspired007's posts: (quote from the regret sticky) : :

quote
Hi everyone. I just read through the posts and wanted to add my 2 cents in. I don't have any children yet and am still deciding on whether or not to circ when and if I have a boy. I am also a chemist and have read many research articles on the topic and there is always evidence to support both arguements.

So, what I am going to share is a true life story of a little boy that I know (he is two now). His mother wanted him to be circumsized and his father didn't. The father won out in the end. This little boy suffered immensely after that decision was made. He got many reoccuring urinary tract infections and even had to be hospitalized for one of them. His mother was livid b/c she wanted him to be circumsized in the first place. He was one year old when she finally put her foot down and was able to convince her husband to go ahead with the procedure. He was now, old enough to truly rationalize the pain and if you want to talk trauma, I am sure he will have more to deal with now than if the procedure were done earlier on.

In the human anatomy, every body part is useful (or at least was) at some point in our lives. However, some parts of our bodies, as evolution continues, become more obsolete. I believe that this is the case with the foreskin and is much as the same with tonsils and the appendix. This is not to say that these bodies parts cannot be somewhat advantageous, but I believe the point to most pro-circ arguements is that the benefits (of circ) outweigh the risk. By risk, I mean a slight decrease in sexual feeling (I mean, really, most circ men will tell you that they have no trouble being aroused; to find out if there is a difference in the sexual feeling of circ men and un-circ men in the latter years a study must done, you can't just assume the use of viagra is b/c of the practice of circumsicion).

I am really not here to argue because I know this forum is for women who are against circumsicion and that is fine. I just wanted to offer a case in point for the reason why so many people still opt for this procedure. I have noted some of the horror stories you've mentioned and if I am ever brought to this decision then I will definitely keep them in mind. Thanks for listening!
endquote

[TigerTail]

Originally Posted by Inspired007

This is misinformation. since I am on the fence (just presenting a few facts) I will leave it as is.

Interesting people coming over en masse to CAC to give us all lessons on the function (or lack of it) of the foreskin & re: UTIs. I doubt there is a collective bunch of people less ignorant about 'all things penis' than the regular posters of CAC .

Barking up the wrong tree, m'dear.

[wytchywoman]

Originally Posted by Inspired007

This is misinformation. I am leaving this forum b/c I don't want to create an uproar. I apologize if I've stepped on any toes. I see that you all feel strongly about this issue and since I am on the fence (just presenting a few facts) I will leave it as is.

Toodles.

Leave if you must but I stand by what I said. It is NOT misinformation ,it is common sense. The foreskin keeps bacteria off of the glans of the penis and away from the opening of the urethra. I seriously do not understand how having a foreskin can lead to anal bacteria coming into contact with the urethra, that is absolute nonsense.

Namaste,

Michelle

PS... my ds 2 is noncirc'd and he is six and never had a UTI. Just so you know.

PSS....as far as I know our pinky fingers are probably obsolete too. Lots of people do OK without them, should we cut those off ? I had my tubes tied and am no longer going to become pregnant our breastfeed so does that mean my boobs are now obsolete and I should get rid of them too? Who decides what is obsolete?

[falcon]

No matter how many UTIs a little girl gets, she is never in danger of getting a part of her body cut off. That poor little boy

[Lula's Mom]

Inspired,
Welcome to The Case Against Circumcision! There's a lot to learn here. Just a reminder: Mothering.com does not host discussions on the "merits" of circumcision.

I'm sorry about your friends' baby havin so many infections. However, as you said yourself, infections are caused by bacteria. They are not caused by having a foreskin. As a previous poster noted, the foreskin is adhered to the glans at birth, and usually for several years afterward, specifically to prtect the penis and urethra. It keeps bacteria out. The usual cause of UTIs in intact boys is that a parent has been erroneously instructed by doctors or family to pull back the foreskin and clean under it at diaper changes or baths.

Intact boys can sometimes have UTIs even when their penises have been properly cared for by washing only the outside, the same way that little girls can. When this is the case, the reasonable course of action is to use the proper antibiotic to eradicate the infection. This is what would be done for a girl baby, and boys deserve the same respect, rather than having a very important, functional piece of their penises cut off because of any infection. That's just not OK.

Something we have learned on this board is that children, male or female, who experience recurrent UTIs may have a physiological abnormality called Vesicoureteral Reflux, or VUR. This may be treated with longterm antibiotics, or surgery, or sometimes it resolves on its own as the child grows. Wouldn't it be interesting if this was the case for your friend's son?

[falcon]

Originally Posted by TigerTail

I doubt there is a collective bunch of people less ignorant about 'all things penis' than the regular posters of CAC

So very true

[Baby Makes 4]

Originally Posted by Lula's Mom

Something we have learned on this board is that children, male or female, who experience recurrent UTIs may have a physiological abnormality called Vesicoureteral Reflux, or VUR. This may be treated with longterm antibiotics, or surgery, or sometimes it resolves on its own as the child grows. Wouldn't it be interesting if this was the case for your friend's son?

My son had mild Kidney Reflux which caused 2 UTIs, the first of which resulted in a week-long hospital stay. Thankfully I live in a part of the world where intact boys are the majority and it was never once suggested to me by any medical professional that I circumcise him.

As it turns out, he outgrew his Kidney Reflux and hasn't had an infection since. What a tragedy if I had circed him in the hopes of preventing it.

[pdx.mothernurture]

Originally Posted by anony

When someone despite all the evidence still maintains the circ didn't hurt their son or alter his physical apperance, it's shrugging off the reality. You can pass it off but it'd be neglecting the feelings, the soul even, of your newborn. And to do it to other sons just strengthens the likelihood that the cycle of violence will continue.

You're entire post was incredibly eloquent & moving, anony, but this part in particular struck me as especially poignant. Thank you.

Jen

[gabysmom617]

i've read the accounts of 2 situations thus far, in which intact boys were having recurrent uti's, got circumcised, and then the frequency of their occurrences of uti's increased dramatically.

[witchbaby]

Originally Posted by bandgeek

And really, you don't know that your son's penis is fine. You won't know that until he's fully grown and chances are, he's not going to tell you if there's something wrong with it at that point. My husband's penis skin SPLIT OPEN multiple times when he was a teenager, because he wasn't left with enough skin to grow into. But I guess that's no big deal huh? Of course, he didn't tell his mom. He didn't tell anybody. Until me. It's obvious that it's a result of his circumcision, because of where the scar is. That could be your son one day. Please spare your future sons the pain. Both the physical and the emotional.

mama, that actually made me cry. how horrible for your husband!
my husband has very mild complications from his circ: hair up the shaft, mildly painful erections-- he began restoring last year and was surprised when he had his first erection with no pain whatsoever! how sad is that, that, until that moment, sex was always equated with pain?

[wytchywoman]

Originally Posted by gabysmom617

i've read the accounts of 2 situations thus far, in which intact boys were having recurrent uti's, got circumcised, and then the frequency of their occurrences of uti's increased dramatically.

I am very glad that the boys in question got better, but did anyone take alternative measures before suggesting surgery? Had them tested for food allergies, kidney reflux, etc...? For example, my ds 2 had recurrent ear infections as a baby, severe ones. Two tubes surgeries had failed. His ENT wanted to go in immediately and remove the tonsils and adenoids ( he was 16 mos old at the time). I refused and told him I wanted to have allergy testing because a huge culprit behind many chronic infection states is food allergies. We tested, he was negative, we decided to wait and see if it was anatomical and would clear up on it's own, it didn't, so we had the surgery at 3 1/2 instead of 16 months and he was able to handle it better than I think he would have as a toddler and the surgery was never viewed as the only choice, it was viewed as the choice of last resort. Circing is surgery and so many people have a hard time viewing it as such. Most people would go to any length to avoid any other surgery on a child. Were the moms of these boys told there might be other options besides circing?

Namaste,

Michelle

[gabysmom617]

Originally Posted by wytchywoman

I am very glad that the boys in question got better, but did anyone take alternative measures before suggesting surgery? Had them tested for food allergies, kidney reflux, etc...? For example, my ds 2 had recurrent ear infections as a baby, severe ones. Two tubes surgeries had failed. His ENT wanted to go in immediately and remove the tonsils and adenoids ( he was 16 mos old at the time). I refused and told him I wanted to have allergy testing because a huge culprit behind many chronic infection states is food allergies. We tested, he was negative, we decided to wait and see if it was anatomical and would clear up on it's own, it didn't, so we had the surgery at 3 1/2 instead of 16 months and he was able to handle it better than I think he would have as a toddler and the surgery was never viewed as the only choice, it was viewed as the choice of last resort. Circing is surgery and so many people have a hard time viewing it as such. Most people would go to any length to avoid any other surgery on a child. Were the moms of these boys told there might be other options besides circing?

Namaste,

Michelle

You're preaching to the choir, dear. Those 2 little boys did not get better, they got worst. The frequency of their uti's INcreased. They got many many more utis, I think i remember reading one who said that instead of occassionally getting a uti, he started getting them back to back after his circumcision. : I doubt these moms were given other alternatives, althought I don't remember for sure, it was a while back when I read this.

[dillonandmarasmom]

Originally Posted by Inspired007

You can certainly get UTI from not being circed. No, they shouldn't cut off your clit. UTI's are caused by bacteria entering the urethra. The clitoris doesn't interfere or cause this. Female UTI's are caused by bacteria from the anus being swept up into the genital tract by wiping. Male UTI's are caused by the same thing however, it is easier to do such with a foreskin.

I am not trying to be snippy (and I hope you aren't either) but I am a chemist and have done research on the matter. There will always be a study to support the practice and always a study to refute it. I don't want to argue. I am just presenting facts.

I don't have any children yet so I am unemotional about it. I don't know what I would do when and if I am faced with the decision but it helps when people understand that there definitely are PROS and CONs for the procedure.

Are you trying to say that bacteria has an easier chance to enter the urethra through a *hooded* urethra??? That's like saying, "Hey, go out into the rain without your hood so your head doesn't get soaked!"

[wytchywoman]

Originally Posted by gabysmom617

You're preaching to the choir, dear. Those 2 little boys did not get better, they got worst. The frequency of their uti's INcreased. They got many many more utis, I think i remember reading one who said that instead of occassionally getting a uti, he started getting them back to back after his circumcision. : I doubt these moms were given other alternatives, althought I don't remember for sure, it was a while back when I read this.

OOOPS!!!! Sorry, I misread. How sad for the little boys that they had to go through that and still be sick on top of it.:

Namaste,

Michelle