BF and moderate alcohol & marijuana consumption? - Page 2

[mamamoo]

Originally Posted by ndunn

Actually the drug that they give for women who have severe morning sickness is quite dangerous. I know someone who took it and her daughter has severe birth defects and tumours in her brain. She is almost 2 with the developmental status of a 6 month old. Given the choice, I would much rather use medicinal marijuana to help myself keep food down than a drug like that.

[intorainbowz]

Here, if you have a baby show up positive for MJ, meth, etc, I can ALMOST GUARANTEE it will be removed. That is the climate here in Utah.

As for drug testing... It can be done with out consent. The problem is that hospitals usually racially, socially and marriage status profile who they think might have a problem. If you come in off a HB transfer, I bet they run a meconium screening. (All you hippies and pot, snark sorry). There are legal and science problems with the meconium tests, but they get used in child welfare tests all the time. (IE there is not a standard level to determine a positive, no time frame for exposure, high levels do not always translate to high levels of use.) Or if you annoy staff, they might run one.

One was run on DD. When I saw that in the chart and had a row with the lovely social worker there.. she was like, well it came back clean, drugs can cause IUGR, etc. The test was run after she and I had our first "conversation". I do not fit the so-called profile for the person a hospital runs a drug test on, but one was run on me anyway, even though the notes from my OB clearly marked no concerns or suspicions of drug alcohol or tobacco use.

One problem with hospitals using a profile of who a user is means they use arbitrary and immoral reasons to test rather than assessment. Middle class married women are very prone to meth addiction. (I had a meth user in recovery who claimed she had not used while pregnant. The judge said she could keep her baby with her if meconium came back clean. She was white and married. When I went to the hospital to inquire the nurse actually said... she does not look like a drug user... At my request they did the test, and the baby was clean and stayed with mom.)

Can you tell this is a hot topic to me? It was a hot topic for me even before the incident with DD.

BTW, I in no way shape or forum endorse the racism and classism that hospitals exhibit in how they pick who to test. I'm highly offended by it.

[whitewolfgrrrl]

Marijuana use will not hurt the baby, from what I've seen. My sister in law and one of my friends both smoked weed while breastfeeding and they have healthy happy kids...

Let's see... I know nothing of alcohol, so I can't tell you anything... a small amount probably wouldn't hurt but a large amount might intoxicate the baby... :P

[Enchanted Gypsy]

MJ is a sacred and beneficial medecine that, when used respectively (as oposed to obsessively ) can be a great help to mom and no harm to baby. It is MUCH safer than alchohol..

I would however, reccomend using a Vaporizer. This works by heating the plant to a certain temp that extracts the benefical ingreients (THC) and leaves behind the carcinogens..it creates no smoke and thus none of the potentially harmful ingredients are consumed ! It is what most drs reccomend to patients prescribed MJ for various health conditions. There are several on the market, the Volcano Vaporizer being the best and most dr recomened. Below is a link to another one that kind of explains the process a bit more..

Check it out here,

http://www.marijuanavaporizer.com/benefits.html

[lollith]

I would also recommend making MJ cookies instead of smoking if you are concerned. You use MJ butter and make cookies with that. The butter is quite a common food spread in some other countries where MJ is not demonized like here in the US. Recipies are easily found online.

As far as street potency, I would think most people who smoke regularly or even occasionally are not buying on the corner downtown and don't have to worry about what it's laced with. Do people really lace MJ anyway?

[mamamoo]

I seriously think the lacing thing is a scare tactic. MJ is super cheap compared to most things that people would lace it with. That would be a really bad business practice.

[cal195]

I've done a fair bit of research on both of these things--marijuana and alcohol use--during breastfeeding.

One thing I thought was interesting is that while alcohol may make you *feel* like you produce more milk, it actually does the opposite. It inhibits prolactin production in the body, and it also inhibits the letdown reflex. makes sense, since it's a depressant. However, if you don't drink to excess, I'd think these effects would probably be negligible.

I've heard anecdotally about some positive effects beer--and particularly dark beer--can have on milk production. I think this is related to the non-alcohol components of the beer. So a non-alcoholic beer would be your best bet if you are truly trying to boost your milk production. If you are really worried about your production, it's probably wise to avoid all alcohol until you're not having the low-supply problem any more.

About marijuana--I too have read studies that show that babies/kids of moms who smoke once in a while don't show observable behavioral or cognitive problems. Moms who smoke a lot tend to have kids who are behaviorally behind other kids--but that's probably a no-brainer. These druggie moms aren't going to be socializing their babies and responding to their needs the same way most moms are. So it's hard to separate out potential effects of the drug directly on the baby, from effects of the drug on the mom (who then becomes a less effective mom).

As pps mentioned, I'd stay away from marijuana while pg and probably while bfing, because not only THC is introduced to the body, but also carcinogens resulting from the incomplete combustion inherent to all types of smoking. Also, THC has a long half-life, so whether it has a deletorious effect or not, it's going to be hanging around in your body and in your child's body for a long time. And the THC molecule tends to attach itself to fat, so it will be somewhat concentrated in breastmilk relative to blood.

For me, if I was a pot smoker, I'd probably indulge relatively rarely during bfing, and not at all during pg. Same with alcohol--I abstained during pg, and I drink very rarely while nursing. You could probably drink more than I do and be fine (1-2 drinks/month) but that's my comfort level.

Catherine

[frenchie]

Originally Posted by L&IsMama

! Um,I'm no expert,but I don't think that's a good idea.:

No study has proven it to be a bad idea.

[cal195]

No study has proven it to be a bad idea.

But... no study has proven that drinking Draino during pregnancy is a bad idea, either. But most of us avoid that. You can't rely on the absence of a study to prove that something is harmless.

I'm not saying that it's proven that pot is harmful during pregancy, either, because personally I haven't seen any studies that show that it is. But, for me, it seems like a common sense thing to avoid breathing smoke (which contains carcinogens, no matter what you're burning) when pregnant. Also, to avoid ingesting a pharmaceutical with a long half-life that's known to cross the placenta and is retained in fat, that has unknown effects on a fetus or baby. I don't think it's dumb or bad mothering to smoke pot during pregnancy, personally, but it's not something I'd be comfortable with, either.
It seems like taking an unnecessary risk. (Unless the mother is having medical issues, such as hyperemesis or anorexia, which pot could help--then all bets are off and my above remarks don't apply.)

Bear in mind that I'm risk-averse during pregnancy. I don't even plan on having an ultrasound during my next one. They haven't been shown to be harmless and I can't see the benefit, for a low-risk mom. But that's my own personal risk/benefit analysis--everybody has to make their own.

Catherine

[cal195]

Originally Posted by frenchie

No study has proven it to be a bad idea.

No study has proven that it's a bad idea to chug antifreeze while pregnant, either, but I'm guessing most of us avoid that. You can't rely on the absence of a study to show that something is harmless.

In the absence of hard data, you have to use common sense. Me, I'd rather avoid deliberately inhaling smoke (which contains carcinogens, no matter what you're burning) as well as THC while pregnant. THC is a psychoactive pharmaceutical which has an unknown effect on the fetus/child, and which is known to cross the placenta, has a long half-life, and adheres to fat molecules--which the fetal brain is largely made of.

In addition, while there aren't any studies done on humans that I'm aware of (and I agree that these would be the most convincing) there are studies done on monkeys, which share 97-99% of our DNA. Here's a quote from a study published in the Journal of Reproductive Medicine:

The effect of delta 9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC), the principal psychoactive component in marijuana, was studied in pregnant and lactating rhesus monkeys. THC (2.5 mg/kg/d) or vehicle was administered during different periods of gestation, and effects on pregnancy outcome and hormone concentrations during pregnancy were studied. The most obvious effects were observed with administration early in pregnancy; three of five pregnancies aborted within days after the drug injections began, and one pregnancy resulted in a stillbirth at term.

Daily THC administration during the middle or third portion of gestation resulted in lesser pregnancy loss (one premature birth and four live births at term with THC treatment during the middle portion; two premature births and three live births at term with THC treatment during the third portion). All the premature infants died within two weeks of birth.

Now, I don't know how much THC is ingested by a person smoking one pot cigarette a week, say. Maybe the amounts mentioned above are way, way greater than a normal user would get. But how can you say that ANY amount is safe *for sure* when you know that large amounts cause very serious effects like fetal death? At least with alcohol, we have some studies in humans that show that very small amount don't usually lead to bad outcomes.

Catherine

[cal195]

Sorry for serial posting! I thought my first reply didn't post, so I grumbled and wrote another one, mostly saying the same thing. Didn't mean to repeat myself!

Catherine

[pixiewytch]

Okay, I'm gonna raise my hand here and admit that I enjoy 1-3 glasses of wine or beer on any given night. I enjoyed an occasional glass during pregnancy. I think this is such a controversial and divided issue. There are just as many people who believe there are no adverse effects as there are people who believe there are. I guess nobody knows for sure. I don't think drinking in the evening is necessarily a healthy habit or admirable one but it's either that or xanax or some other even more sedating drug for my nerves. Or I could just not BF at all? It gets a bit complicated and it's easy to get on a pedestal and say that abstaining completely from such substances is a no brainer or small sacrifice to pay. However, we are all human and I'm sure I'm not the only one with a few weaknesses that aren't going to disappear with the wave of a wand.

As for MJ, I don't indulge anymore and haven't for a number of years. The biggest red flag issue for me on it is that its ILLEGAL. I'm already absolutely petrified of having my kids taken away from me because I'm a nutjob who homebirthed or because I take my kids to see live music or insert other crazy alternative lifestyle stuff. There is just no way that I could justify to myself doing any substance that would automatically get my kids taken away from me, no questions asked. That is a risk I am not willing to take. I had some friends back in the day before I had kids and they had a five year old. They would smoke around her but refer to it as "the funny cigarette". I believe they had been doing it for so long that it just kind of evolved into that as she was older. I just wonder what happens when she goes to school saying that mommy smokes the funny cigarette.

Ultimately these are very personal choices and none of us are perfect. I think you just have to examine the possible risks and consequences, use moderation and common sense.

[frenchie]

Originally Posted by cal195

Sorry for serial posting! I thought my first reply didn't post, so I grumbled and wrote another one, mostly saying the same thing. Didn't mean to repeat myself!

Catherine

That's alright!
There have been studies...and those studies have been unable to prove harm to the fetus. There is a thread in the Pregnancy forum, that is pulled at the moment for some UA violations...but will be returned as soon as the violations are removed. It's loaded with links and valuable information on the subject. I really don't have the energy at the moment to gather it all on my own I will say that the studies that I have read are in complete contrast to the study you posted below.

[TwinKristi]

Originally Posted by pixiewytch

As for MJ, I don't indulge anymore and haven't for a number of years. The biggest red flag issue for me on it is that its ILLEGAL.

What about in states where it isn't illegal??

I have done my homework on MJ and pregnancy as well (a LOT from Mothering.com actually!) and there ARE studies done on the outcome unlike Drano or Antifreeze. You KNOW the outcome will be catastrophic unlike MJ! These toxins are man-made chemicals, not organic! Its quite a silly comparison if you ask me.
I also have dealt with the medical field on it showing up on a drug test and they cannot take your baby over THAT alone! If you test positive in the state of CA for meth, cocaine, heroin, etc. you WILL have your baby taken away. They turn it in to the DSS immediately, MJ doesn't get turned into the DSS, and I'm speaking from experience. I have 2 little boys sleeping in their bedroom who both were tested in the hospital and the results have never come up since. I spoke with my OB specialist as well as the on-site counselor at my OB's office. I printed out articles backing up my views and she couldn't argue! I knew what I was talking about. If its not legal in your state than yes, DSS could get involved.

[pixiewytch]

If it was legal and it helped me to relax then I would do the research and consider it. Even though my kid might not be taken away, "might not" isn't enough to keep me from being paranoid about it, especially in the government climate we live in today.

I'm not sure what your comparison was about man made chemicals and toxins. Were you talking about alcohol or something else? I know plenty of people like myself who drink homegrown or organic ale. I can't imagine that being as deadly as drano or antifreeze. Maybe I'm confusing what you are talking about.

[EdnaMarie]

Moderation for alcohol, and as for pot, I agree with the PPs who said if you can't get it 100% guaranteed clean, don't do it. I wouldn't do either every day but I did have a couple glasses of wine each trimester. I can't say if there was an effect because I don't know what she'd have been like without it!

I almost never smoke pot- like, 5 times in my life- but I craved it during my first trimester. There was no way to get it safely so I didn't do it, but I wous have!

[cal195]

Originally Posted by pixiewytch

If it was legal and it helped me to relax then I would do the research and consider it. Even though my kid might not be taken away, "might not" isn't enough to keep me from being paranoid about it, especially in the government climate we live in today.

I'm not sure what your comparison was about man made chemicals and toxins. Were you talking about alcohol or something else? I know plenty of people like myself who drink homegrown or organic ale. I can't imagine that being as deadly as drano or antifreeze. Maybe I'm confusing what you are talking about.

No no, I certainly wasn't trying to compare alcohol or pot to draino or antifreeze. My only point there--and perhaps it was badly worded--was that you can't rely on the absence of a study to prove something's harmless. In other words, think of some risky, dumb thing to do, like drinking draino. There's no study to show that that's harmful, right? So why can't we all drink draino during pregnancy? Because we use common sense to know that it isn't safe. Even though there's no study saying so. So, a pp was saying that no study shows that smoking pot during pregnancy is dangerous. Sure, but there are no studies on pot, period, because it's illegal. The absence of a study showing that it causes harm doesn't mean that it's harmless--only that it hasn't been studied. Does that make more sense? It may be true that pot is completely harmless. Heck, it may be that pot is beneficial. But--here's the thing-- we don't know that. There's no way to know whether it's harmful, neutral, or beneficial to the fetus. And in the absence of any hard data, you have to use common sense. Smoking anything is bad, due to the carcinogenic (cancer-causing) compounds produced by the incomplete combustion. So, even if pot was totally harmless, smoking it would still be a bad thing. Maybe putting it in brownies or something would be better. But, we actually don't know that pot, even in brownie form, is harmless. It's a psychoactive compound which readily crosses the placenta, and we don't know how it interacts with the fetal brain. So, my thinking is that it's probably safer to avoid it during pregnancy.

Catherine

[mamamoo]

But actually there have been studies done, correct? On jamiacan mamas. I believe those showed no hard at all...someone else mentioned it too, wonder how to find the study.

[Enchanted Gypsy]

Originally Posted by izobelle

I agree with the PPs who said if you can't get it 100% guaranteed clean, don't do it.

Honestly, getting it "clean" is not really much of an issue, not in my experience. Most people who smoke herb are getting it from good organic sources that they have known for awhile or from the local "store" or club where it is sold legally, in the many states (increasing yearly !!) whrere it is now legal.

Also, once again, if used in a vaporizer the carcinogen issue is totally a moot point. ~ Pixie

[GooeyRN]

Not pot for me, I would loose my nursing license... But I do drink 1-2 beers or wine on friday and/or sat nights after getting home from work. I am an EPer, and never noticed a difference in dd's behavior after I gave her that milk. However, I didn't give her the milk if I drank prior to her being 6 months old.