What Was Ugliest BF Argument You Ever Had?

[dentente]

Go on. You can tell me. I need some perspective. I have had two really awful debates that got ugly with family members who disagreed about the importance of BF. I guess I'm not an eloquent speaker :

Anyway. I'm feeling a bit sorry for myself after my blow-up with my SIL and want to know if I'm the only one to have this particular subject cause such a rift.

Denny

[Quirky]

Unfortunately you are far from alone. I am feeling very estranged from two of my lawschool classmates, neither of whom has kids, who don't see breastfeeding as a feminist issue. I do, because I don't think we should live in a society that only treats women's breast as sex objects; because of the health issues for both mama and baby; because women's work should be valued whether it's in or out of the home, etc. and so forth. Both of them think that a woman should feel perfectly fine choosing not to breastfeed if she wants to work outside the home, if she wants her husband to take equal share in raising the baby, etc. After all, they were formula fed and they did just fine, so formula can't be as bad as we "breastfeeding militants" make it out to be.

It makes me so angry. (Can you tell? ) I don't see how they can miss the connections between big business formula companies and the lack of maternity benefits in this country and discrimination against women whether at home or in the workplace.

OK, thanks for letting me vent! You are not alone.

[tandemmama]

I got into an argument with my friend because after having much difficulty with breastfeeding my first, things were finally going smoothly and I commented "I'm so glad that we worked through those problems and are able to breastfeed. He'll be healthier for it" and she got all pissy because she figured that meant I was *putting her daughter down* because she wasn't breastfed (and therefore must be "not as good" as my son) and putting her down because she couldn't work past the problems she had (she tried bf) and I could. She didn't speak to me for a week.

[Viola]

Most of the arguments I've gotten into are online. There was a breast vs. bottle board on AOL and some of those moms are dead set against breastfeeding.

My sister and I did talk about it once, and she wanted to know why I was planning on nursing my daughter a full year, which she thought was gross. I said, "Well, I read books and it's healthier" and she said, "So are you saying I'm a bad mother? I read books too, and I figured the colostrum was enough."

OK, so if I exercise and talk about how I'm healthier for exercising, do I make people feel bad about themselves? I shouldn't say that exercise is healthier, or not eating trans fatty acids is healthier, because people who choose differently and find it hard to make the healthier choices will feel guilty and bad about themselves. Give me a break.

[dentente]

Interestingly, BF has become THE most controversial parenting decision I made so far. My mother had a bit of a problem with it at first. She did not BF me or my sister. The argument I had with my sister, however was unreal. She asked me what I thought of moms who never breastfeed or even try it and I said they were uninformed at best. She is a career person and has no kids but is the big earner in her marriage and thus, according to her logic, not able to breastfeed. She basically got angry because the way it came out, it sounded like I thought moms who didn't breastfeed were bad moms. She's wrong. I don't actually think that you can judge overall parenting ability based on any one thing but I somehow find I strongly believe every mother should at least try it. Just for the first week of the child's life at the very least. A life that will likely be stuffed full of so many artificial pleasures that will never come close to the beauty and purity of those first few hours of being held and nursed. I figure if you can give a tiny baby anything, at least give them that before you make with the damned similac.

Oh well. My sis was angry for months at me. She really thinks she can make a decision about feeding her baby based on, what was that word she used, oh yeah. CONVENIENCE. At one point in the argument I got so annoyed with her that I told her "If you want convenience then get a houseplant. Kids are totally inconvenient but worth all the trouble. Birth is messy, babyhood is messy. Breastfeeding is not messy. It is NOT inconvenient. Sickly babies? Those are inconvenient to say the very least. Breastfed babies are healthier. Go read up on it."

She did not shut up about it until she came out for a visit. She has a friend out here in the same line of work and who works similar crazy hours. The woman has a young baby and she breastfeeds. She pumps at work and her dh feeds the baby during the day. My sister finally admitted that it could be done. Whether she'll bother with it when the time comes remains to be seen.

Denny

[Meiri]

Oddly enough the hassles I've gotten in RL haven't been over BF or not BF, but where and when.

The worst arguments I've had have been with my breastfeeding family because I NIP where I happen to be. I don't hide in the restroom or in a bedroom. I didn't set myself up to HAVE to have all private and quiet for baby to be able to focus on feeding.

My sisters hid/hide, even the one that wandered into EN with her second. Dad was joking with me, during their last visit a few weeks ago, as I sat in our chair nursing the just turned 4 year old, that he has one daughter (me) who just nurses wherever and another who hides in her bedroom to nurse but drops her pants in the living room(to be fair, she thought he was safely elsewhere in the house. She's not an exhibitionist!:LOL)

I asked him just what was visible? My t-shirts drape nicely.

I had a horrendous argument with the bride's twin after I'd nursed 3 yr old DD during the wedding. I asked her what a crying flower girl would have added to the ceremony. The best part was when I deflated her by telling her how I've been known to brag about how she had nursed twins for a good year while working full time. I figured it'd be hard to sustain an argument when your opponent tell you she admires what You've done in the nursing realm even as the two of you disagree about another aspect.

[Lucky Charm]

I find this thread very interesting.

i breastfed all three of my kids, and only one of my friends did. no one said anything to me, even when i was first trying to nurse my first baby, and was all thumbs. i assumed i would nurse for at least a year, not because i was informed (the only book i ever read was the LLL womany art of breastfeeding), but because if formula fed babies had a bottle for a year, then my baby should have the breast for at least as long. i never had plans on brestfeeding any longer than a year, and didnt much think about womwn who nursed longer. i had friends who asked me questions about nursing, and gave them the info they wanted. no one seemd offended when i said breastmilk is best, because any knucklehead knows that. however, i never made anyone feel small when they said they didnt want to, or felt uncomfortable doing it. i figured my actions speak much louder than anywords i could ever say.

[Amazlilith]

My sister and I had a fight because I was really excited about an article about a Breastfeeding sit in in Mothering. She got all upset and said that she didn't believe in extending breastfeeding or breastfeeding in public. I told her I disagreed with her and that I did, that it was better for the baby. She had the audacity to tell me "well then it's a good thing that you can't breastfeed" (my daughter is adopted). I was so angry and hurt. Little does she know that when we adopt again I am going to nurse.

I also have a psychologist friend that told me that extended breastfed children were self-centered and would grow up with problems. I was shocked and speechless.


I am just so happy that I can come here and get support in my knowledge on what is good for my babies.

[Evergreen]

I havent had one, because I dont want to offend non breastfeeders. It is just pathetic! That is one reason I have soooooo much respect for you for sticking up to your sister, mother and sil. Honestly, not all women are like them, in fact my whole family is really supportive (not that it makes it any easier for you to hear that.) I do know people who did not bf (and not for good reasons) they know I bf, they know I am comitted to it, and they have never brought it up. If they ever started an argument about it, trust me, they would get it! But they never have, so I still feel I can not even mention the benefits of bfing without insulting them or how they parent. Just wanted to reiterate that I have read ave your posts and think you are wonderful, I am also sorry that your relationships have been compromised because of it. It should have never come to that. All women (actully all people) shouldbe as well educated on the matter as you are. You tried, you rock!

[dentente]

Thanks so much for the kind words. I feel like such a bad person the last few days. I have a feeling I do NOT come across as very nice when I say these things IRL. The reactions of my sis and my SIL in particular really scared me and showed me how almost political the decision to breastfeed or not is. It's almost the hinge that everything you do as a parent hangs on nowadays.

I'll say what I said to both of them. Breastfeeding (or not) is only one single aspect of parenting. I have met really crappy parents who breastfed. They did drugs and they were irresponsible. They probably should have bottlefed in retrospect. I have met great parents who bottlefed. Perfect in every way except for the fact that breastfeeding turned them way off. They cited those "convenience" and "modesty" factors I often hear of. So there. BFing is not what makes a parent a good parent IMNSHO. It's a nice start but it doesn't really begin or end there. Does that make sense?

I feel anything you do you should do with conviction and definitely after weighing all the factors carefully. I often feel FFers avoid even looking at the facts because they are afraid of what they might find there. I feel if you choose to FF, do not carry a stick around to bash BFers or paint them as militant. You made your decision, so don't let anyone make you feel like a $hitty parent. If you do feel bad then you have a lack of confidence in your decision. Do it and and don't look back. Concentrate on being as good a parent as you can be and stop carrying extra baggage. Parenting is a heavy load on it's own. Have regret? Research a good LC and damn, girl. Get back on the horse and try again with the next baby. We are here for you.

Denny

[eilonwy]

Originally posted by Meiri
The worst arguments I've had have been with my breastfeeding family because I NIP where I happen to be. I don't hide in the restroom or in a bedroom. I didn't set myself up to HAVE to have all private and quiet for baby to be able to focus on feeding.

I hear that! I've never had any arguements with family; my mother is kind of squeamish about my NIP, but she knows that's from growing up repressed and she knows what I mean when I say "If more people don't NIP, society will never change."

The worst argument I've been involved in is in the post "Militant Breastfeeder?!". I was later told by the pregnant woman's dh "You are old enough to know better than to whip your boob out in a public place. F-off, you should be ashamed of yourself. Don't respond, don't call, and don't come down here again." As if! I won't be going down there anyway, unless it's to leave LLL pamphlets and baggies of frozen breastmilk all over their front porch!

(Okay, I probably won't do that. :LOL But it's a fun thought, right?)

[eilonwy]

Another thing...

I read somewhere that the women who get upset about their choice to ff are, for the most part, women who have nursed for only a short period of time and feel somehow "inadequate" for supplementing with/switching to formula. The article implied that women who choose to ff from day one are ok with the choice, and don't feel badly about it. Is this true? Not being in either camp, I wouldn't know...

[captain optimism]

Not the worst, exactly...

nor was it even really an argument. I have a friend who has training as an herbalist and alternative health practitioner. She eats a vegan diet and is fierce about organics. And SHE told me that she thought it was terrible that health care practitioners make women feel guilty for not breastfeeding! :

Okay, she herself has no children and is surprisingly poorly informed about some basic pregnancy stuff, considering that she is in the middle of taking biology courses to qualify to study accupuncture. (you have to do a pre-med sequence to go to accupuncture school.)

I just thought it was hilarious that this person who tries to make everyone feel guilty about nearly everything they put in their mouths--and who is incredibly opposed to giving children cow's milk-- and who reminds me every time I see her to do more chi gung and drink lemon water every morning---thinks that people shouldn't feel guilty about feeding babies formula!

I made a point of telling her all the health benefits of breastfeeding to nursing moms and to babies. She hadn't heard, for example, about the study that shows that breastfeeding reduces the risk of breast cancer. She was very interested and positive about it. But it was kind of silly that I had to do that!

[Viola]

Originally posted by eilonwy
. I was later told by the pregnant woman's dh "You are old enough to know better than to whip your boob out in a public place. F-off, you should be ashamed of yourself. Don't respond, don't call, and don't come down here again."

OMG, I would be livid. I'd probably throw a frozen bag of breastmilk through their front window. OK, I'd actually throw a rock, LOL. I just hate the "You should be ashamed of yourself for nursing your child in public" type of comments. I haven't gotten them myself, although I did get some flak from family who thought it was sickening to nurse a 3 year old. But to be fair, this was after I expressed discontent with my sister's parenting where she was slapping her child. It still made me mad that she compared extended bf to spanking, but I guess she was just saying that we make different choices and she hadn't said anything about mine.

But just the whole way of trying to gain an upper hand in an argument by coming across with this authoritarian, "You aren't a child, you should know better..." kind of stuff really pisses me off. How do you respond constructively to that? And then the added insult of "I'm going to say whatever I want to you and curse at you, but don't you respond to me" would really make me want to light some dog poop ablaze and set it on their porch.

[Viola]

Re: Another thing...

Originally posted by eilonwy
The article implied that women who choose to ff from day one are ok with the choice, and don't feel badly about it. Is this true? Not being in either camp, I wouldn't know...

Having participated in mainstream parenting boards, I would say that there are definitely women who don't care that they use formula. They think breastfeeding is great if you can do it, but most babies in the US are formula fed and turn out fine, and they themselves were formula fed and are fine and so on. I have known some to say, "it's great if you want to do it, it's not for me, I've read up on the subject and I still don't think it is that important." I've also heard, "I'm not like you breastfeeders, I just don't think it is that an important issue."

[TEAK's Mom]

My worst one was not about breastfeeding, but about nursing in public. I am a part time programmer for the state of AK and had to travel to LosAngeles for some training. I brought my mother along with my to watch dd while I was in class and she brought her to me at all of the breaks to nurse. The facility had a nice common room with tables, chairs, coffee, etc. We were not disturbing anyone; in fact, people were gathered around admiring her and the other bf moms who lived in the area were jealous that they had to pump in the dirty bathroom.

On day two, the receptionist tried to offer me a "private room." This room was on another floor behind a security guard. I told her no thank you and went about my business. That night, I got a call from my administrative manager. She said that she had been gotten a call from this company's sales manager. They said, "do you know that she's BREASTFEEDING A BABY?!?" Her response was, "umm yes." They asked to talk to my supervisor about disciplinary action for my unprofessional behavior.

Thankfully, she ran across the hall to the deputy commissioner's office. He is an attorney married to a nurse. He told them that he couldn't see a problem with what I was doing. So, they asked to speak with HIS supervisor. These people are relentless! The chain of command here goes him, commissioner, governor. He had to threaten them with legal action to get them to leave me alone.

On the good side, though. I was impressed with the level of support I got. I just found it ironic that in seriously, frighteningly conservative Alaska, no one bothered me, but in LA, they tried to get me fired.

Sorry this was so long!

[dentente]

That rattling sound is my head shaking. What a weird bunch of people. Why does this continue to be a problem? I will never understand. If you bottlefeeding no one would have batted an eye.

Sick, sad, world.

Denny

[nancg]

Not counting when I told my FIL "No, you're wrong" when he told me I couldn't nurse two (when I was pregnant with DD2).

My worst was with one of my students - a college student, microbiologist, who (not knowing I am nursing a 3 year old plus my baby) said something about nursing being irrelevant after 3 months. I nearly blew a gasket, though I restrained myself to trying the humorous path of talking about how kids' poop stinks when you introduce formula. I am still debating having a lecture on breastfeeding in my agriculture course, but given that I've NIP'd in the classroom building, including during student conferences, I figure my views are probably quite clear.

Nancy
mom to nurslings Emily (3) and Hazel (9 months)

[Sofiamomma]

I once brought up becoming a baby-friendly hospital at a staff meeting. . . oo you shoulda seen the sparks fly! Well, how on Earth would we pay for formula? Make the parents that choose to formula feed buy their own?! Oh, my Christmas, no! That would be "punishing" them and "discriminating" against them for their choice that they have a right to make! It would be disrespectful!

Um, and handing out formula samples to breastfeeding moms isn't disrespectful of their choice? And if you choose to formulafeed, aren't you also choosing to buy formula? Or get it from WIC, I guess. If something like 70% of moms breastfeed in the hospital why are worried about whether the formula parents will be pissy and not come to our hospital and give us their business? Maybe we will just miss the free stuff the formula companies give us. Diaper bags, buttons, badge holders, pens, mugs, lunch, inservices, blah, blah, blah.

I was told that I was a "militant" breastfeeding Nazi, etc. And that I shouldn't go around making the formula moms feel bad about their choice and try to talk them into switching. As if! I just don't understand this reaction. If I'm taking care of a mom who is choosing to bottle feed I respect her choice. Sometimes I will ask about her decision to see if there is anything I can do to help her. Mostly I don't, but if something makes me suspect she has made her decision on something like I can't do both, I have to do one or the other, I will give her some information.

I also love the comment on how someone's children were fed formula and they survived. I said, "That's just it. Formula is for surviving. Breastmilk is for thriving." I do not want moms who had no choice but to give formula in order for their children to survive to feel badly. They have to find other ways to help them thrive and they do. But I get tired of hearing that formula is just as good. It's not.

[Viola]

Originally posted by Sofiamomma
That would be "punishing" them and "discriminating" against them for their choice that they have a right to make! It would be disrespectful!

: :

Why would not giving a formula feeding mom a sample or two punish her? It really doesn't make that much difference anyway, does it? Sheesh!