Daughters seeing Papa naked - Page 7

[mamabain]

wow. my girls will see daddy naked until they or he are uncomfortable. hasn't happened yet. girls are 5 and 2

[Lovenest]

Originally Posted by BusyMommy

But if the stats are inaccurate, then they are contributing to a hysteria. YES no-one should be abused, 0 out of 4 is the goal, but I really hate to see people get hyped up and paranoid over false or inaccurate reporting of statistics.

Well these are prob as close to accurate as it gets.
I looked for about an hour at stats and this was about what I got everywhere i looked. I just thought it was good info that the site was giving, and also good info on how to prevent abuse. Knowledge is power.

I would not intentionally create hysteria, that's not me. I went back and erased the stats, if people would like they can look at the website and find it themselves. Sorry if I stepped on any toes.

[BusyMommy]

Oh no, I'm sorry, I'm not speaking to you directly. I'm just speaking to the bandwagon people jump on.
The whole issue sucks--sorry

[wasabi]

Originally Posted by doriansmummy

Well these are prob as close to accurate as it gets.
I looked for about an hour at stats and this was about what I got everywhere i looked. I just thought it was good info that the site was giving, and also good info on how to prevent abuse. Knowledge is power.

I would not intentionally create hysteria, that's not me. I went back and erased the stats, if people would like they can look at the website and find it themselves. Sorry if I stepped on any toes.

I think her point was that 2 out of 3 represents 67% of girls. 1 out of 4 is only 25%. Yes it's still a big number but it is much much smaller than 67%.

I answered the one that was who cares however that was phrased. I grew up with no nudity in my home. I can remember being shamed for walking around in my panties and camisole when I was 4 or something ridiculous like that because I was showing off inappropriately. I remember my sister and I being sat down and given a lecture complete with quotes from the Bible about the sins of incest after we were caught wrestling on our bed and I looked down her pants and said "I see your butt!" I was 4, she was 5.5. My husband grew up with a single mom and she was naked around him as a part of normal life. He would sit in the bathroom and talk to her while she took a bath and vice versa. When we started dating in high school this seemed like the height of inappropriateness to me. Now I'm probably much more comfortable with nudity than he is.

Currently Dh usually takes off his pants after dinner if not the second he walks in the door. He usually sleeps in just his underwear. He bathes in a shower with a clear glass door and everyone comes and goes while he's in there and stops to chat with him. He still bathes with the girls (4 and almost 2) on a fairly regular basis. DD#1 has never seemed to be that interested in his penis other than the typical "you have a penis" type stuff. She does sometimes pull on her labia and say "Look I have two penises" and she'll say when she grows up and becomes a boy then she'll have a penis. DD#2 has been more interested in the penis in the bathtub if it was floating. It's clearly not a sexual interest but a "hey what's that bobbing in the water." She is easily redirected to a toy. Other than that if he is changing he has no problem with them being in there at this time. At the point that he or they become uncomfortable it will stop. I'm guessing that will be around the age of 8 or so but we'll see. They can see me naked until it becomes an issue and that would be I have no idea when. Puberty? Never but stop bathing with me when they're large enough physically that it would be a pain? Sooner than that? (Which would be awesome because I've barely taken a bath by myself for the last four years! ) If I had a son I wouldn't do anything differently. DD#1 weaned at four which was my personal cutoff but might be different for each child but certainly until at least age 4 he'd be allowed to see my nah-nahs. Neither child has the slightest concept of my breasts as genitalia. We were eating lunch at a friend's house recently and I asked DD#2 if she wanted nah-nahs. The little boy there said he wanted some nah-nahs and his mom said "You don't know what nah-nahs are do you?" He said no and my DD pulled her shirt down, pointed at her nipple and said "They're these. These are nah-nahs." He had only recently weaned himself and has a brother who nurses so he was just like "oh ok." There was nothing remotely weird about the scene because to them boobs weren't sexualized. :

Now my DD loves to be naked. Loves loves loves it. She usually will take off her pants the first times she goes to the bathroom after she comes home on a school day and if not she almost always strips at bedtime. She just doesn't like sleeping in anything for the most part. And around us I think that's totally fine. When she wants to wear clothes around us then she will. She does however know that when other people are around she is supposed to wear clothes. Some days she'll ask "Mom is anybody coming over today?" because she wants to know if she has to get dressed or not. I don't want to teach my girls that their bodies are bad or dirty. They are taught that their bodies are theirs and that no one can touch their vaginas except them (except for diaper changing/ toliet help). But because for us some level of nudity is normal there does not seem to be any shame associated with it at all. There just really isn't.

[MomToKandE]

Dd is 6 and is not showing a desire for privacy yet. She still takes baths with ds (3) and is around as dh is getting dressed. When she's older and wants privacy then dh will cover up as well.

When ds was born I thought there would be lots of questions about boy parts and girl parts but honestly she's not very interested in the differences. She's more interested in the fact that she and I are both girls but I have "fur" (her word) down there and she doesn't.

[Devaskyla]

Originally Posted by doriansmummy
Here are some stats from:
http://www.darkness2light.org/KnowAb...atistics_2.asp

The statistics are shocking

* 1 in 4 girls is sexually abused before the age of 18.
* 1 in 6 boys is sexually abused before the age of 18.
* 1 in 5 children are solicited sexually while on the internet.
* Nearly 70% of all reported sexual assaults (including assaults on adults) occur to children ages 17 and under.

I wonder if those stats include cases like one I heard of recently, where a 15 year old girl went down on her 17 year old boyfriend (voluntarily), her parents found out and now he's in jail for a very long time (unless he appeals again and wins) with a sex offender label for life. I've actually heard of several similar cases. I don't consider those abuse and I think the treatment of the boy is despicable, but I suspect that those would be included.

[angelcat]

Originally Posted by alegna

This is a good point.

For me, my dad's openness allowed me to feel safe in my relationship with him. It felt open like there weren't areas we couldn't talk about with eachother, without any suggestion of taboo topics.

-Angela

Exactly. And I found it pretty easy to say "hey, put on a robe, I don't wanna see that!" when I wasn't comfortable with it.

Originally Posted by Devaskyla

Dh is actually more modest around the boys than I am. Until recently ds2 had separation anxiety and I could not go to the bathroom with the door closed or leave it closed for a shower, so ds1 saw me a lot. We're working with him on closed bathroom doors=private, even for mommy (he gets that for daddy & grandma, but since he's never had to deal with me wanting privacy before, it's weird for him. Both kids regularly are around when I get changed and ds1 took pictures at ds2's birth. I don't think it's a big deal. I do find it a bit weird that my mother doesn't have a problem changing in front of them, but she's never had a problem changing in front of me either.

I just have a girl, so I wouldn't find it odd if she changed in front of Rachel. Now if papa did, that might be a little odd. As I said before, it' wasn't a big deal, I did see him naked when I was under 10. But I don't think he'd be comfortable changing around Rachel.

[newmainer]

i want to thank papoose for being brave to not only tell her story, but to stick with a discussion and giving a point of view that is not often heard and is in stark contrast to what most mamas here do.

and, i think people are getting a bit snarky.

i have not been abused (thankfully) and as i got older adn learned more about my friends, i realized that *i was lucky*. I could have been- our landlord in one place we lived kissed me inappropriately on the mouth once ( i was in 3rd grade) . it could have gone further and worse and i feel so grateful that was all and i was never scarred for it, though it is also a vivid memory.

but i have learned from my friends who have been abused that it affects all aspects of your life and yes, clearly her experience has affected this aspect of raising her child. enough already. she has already stated that she understands most MDC mamas are different and she respects what others do. if changing her perspective was as easy as reading an MDC thread, i am sure it would have been changed long ago.

sorry papoose if i interpreting you wrong, but while your guidelines wouldn't work in my family, i see where you are coming from and i think in certain cases, it is absolutely appropriate.

for example, i *would* consider an adult who is blatently nude often in front of young children (esp. ones not his/her own) potentially abusive if it makes those children uncomfortable. there is a power dynamic there and while we all like to believe we are raising our kids to be outspoken about how they feel, it is *hard* to go against an adult, esp. one you know and love.

our dd loves to be nude, but i felt after 1 yr. i wanted her to have bottoms on around adults besides me and dh and maybe my mom. she would want to sit on laps and end up flinging her legs all about, her yoni all exposed and i just thought it was too much. i didn't want to freak her out or anything but i would gently tell her she needs to put on pants when we knew other family or friends were coming over (not if we had a bunch of kids all swimming nakies or something). only dh and i and grandmothers bathe her... no way male family members. i trust them, but still... it just feels better. its not a blatant rule or anything, in fact there's never been a discussion, but that's how it happens.

oh, and dd started to get curious about dh's penis when she was about 18 m. or so and he started wearing trunks w. her in the tub- she wanted to touch it and was a bit fascinated and he was more comfortable in trunks.

it *is* true that children are sexual beings- i think the term 'aroused' is a loaded one- but intense curiosity and excitement, definitely. i mean, i knew my was allllll around my parts at a very young age , so i get where some of that is coming from. When dd was little (like 2 or so) she asked once or twice for us to tickle her yoni. obviously we said no, that was not appropriate her yoni was for her only and she could touch it if she wanted in her room. that was the kind of thing that made me freak a bit about her being naked w. other adults.

anyway, this has turned into a novel but i guess my overall point is that this is such a sticky situation and while yes, i think comfort with nudity is wonderful there are other issues that bear thinking about (not that no one is...).

ok, enough out of me!

[blessed]

Originally Posted by newmainer

i want to thank papoose for being brave to not only tell her story, but to stick with a discussion and giving a point of view that is not often heard and is in stark contrast to what most mamas here do...

Thanks, papoose!

[BusyMommy]

:

Yep, I totally agree w/that!

[Ambrose]

We're pretty open about nudity too. DH occassionally gets embarrassed but that's usually when DD goes up to him and points and says "butt" when he's naked or finishing going in the bathroom. It's usually not an issue though.

[thepeach80]

I think 1 in 4 is low, but that's from my own experiences and my friends' experiences. I know I was assaulted before 18 and never told my parents and never reported it etc. I have at least one other friend like that, so add that to the 1 in 4 and you're getting closer to the 2 in 3. Obviously there will never be accurate stats on this, but why should it matter? It happens and however we choose to try and make sure it doesn't happen to our children, hopefully will work!

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by thepeach80

I think 1 in 4 is low, but that's from my own experiences and my friends' experiences. I know I was assaulted before 18 and never told my parents and never reported it etc. I have at least one other friend like that, so add that to the 1 in 4 and you're getting closer to the 2 in 3. Obviously there will never be accurate stats on this, but why should it matter? It happens and however we choose to try and make sure it doesn't happen to our children, hopefully will work!

Many, maybe most, of my female friends were sexually assaulted, too. Most of my male friends were also sexually abused (despite the stats that consistently show a lower rate for boys). However, 100% of my friends had at least one parent who's an alcoholic, so I tend to avoid using my personal circle of friends as a baseline. I know full well that the percentage of people who grow up with an alcoholic parent might be high - but it's not 100%. I think I was always drawn, without realizing it, to people who had the same kind of crap in their lives that I did. I simply couldn't relate to people who thought sexual abuse or a drunken parent was something horrible to "ooh" and "ahh" over in movie. Their lives weren't real to me at all.

Most of my old friends are out of the picture now, and I'm starting to meet people without that kind of background.

I was wondering about the "2 out of 3" women thing, because I'd seen stats cited many, many times and they were never that high before. I wondered where the number had come from.

[ledzepplon]

My dd is 2.5, and we don't care at this point who sees who naked. (I voted "no big deal.")

I think when she gets a little older, we'll limit the opposite-gender parental nudity. That means, if she walks in the room, oops. But we'll be more modest in general.

[Storm Bride]

Oh, yeah - with respect to children learning when it's appropriate to be naked...ds1 was a total nudist until he was about 5. He didn't really see any reason to wear clothes most of the time, and I'm not all that fond of laundry, so... anyway - he wasn't dressed a whole lot, unless we were going out.

I've never had an issue with him. He never insisted on being naked if we told him that a given place or event required clothing. The only vestige left of my first little nudist (I have two new ones) is that he likes to wander around with no shirt on. He's also inordinately comfortable with his body, and doesn't freak out about sex and sexual topics. (This is the kid who gave his female elementary school principal and three female grade 7 classmates all the reasons why routine c-sections weren't a great idea, and why natural birth was better, etc. He was also completely unphased by the sex ed curriculum, which included a childbirth video. That's not from being around when I had his siblings, either - they were both "born" by c-section at the hospital.)

[dallaschildren]

Abuse in all forms impacts us profoundly and I respectfully request that we remain compassionate in our responses.

DC

[hottmama]

I think 1/4 women and 1/6 men comes a lot closer to the truth of the matter. Anecdotally (since so many people have told their stories and how many friends they know who were abused), I have never been the victim of any sort of sexual violence, neither has my male partner, my sister, or either of my best friends (1 male, 1 female). I have heard many personal stories and statistics on sexual violence as I got my BA in Women's and Gender Studies, and I think saying 2/3 women are sexually abused before 12 is completely, totally untrue and could lead to paranoia and hysteria. I understand that having that type of experience affects someone's perception but those of us with a less biased perception can come to a more sensible conclusion, IMO.
I don't think that outlawing nudity in the home is a good way to prevent child abuse. I think raising confident children who feel empowered in their own bodies and can speak up for themselves is the way to protect them. And keeping a close eye on our young children, of course. My son is very shy and tries too hard to please everyone-- so I keep him under close wraps for the time being. But I do trust people outside of myself with his safety.

[roxyrox]

Originally Posted by hottmama

I think 1/4 women and 1/6 men comes a lot closer to the truth of the matter. Anecdotally (since so many people have told their stories and how many friends they know who were abused), I have never been the victim of any sort of sexual violence, neither has my male partner, my sister, or either of my best friends (1 male, 1 female). I have heard many personal stories and statistics on sexual violence as I got my BA in Women's and Gender Studies, and I think saying 2/3 women are sexually abused before 12 is completely, totally untrue and could lead to paranoia and hysteria. I understand that having that type of experience affects someone's perception but those of us with a less biased perception can come to a more sensible conclusion, IMO.
I don't think that outlawing nudity in the home is a good way to prevent child abuse. I think raising confident children who feel empowered in their own bodies and can speak up for themselves is the way to protect them. And keeping a close eye on our young children, of course. My son is very shy and tries too hard to please everyone-- so I keep him under close wraps for the time being. But I do trust people outside of myself with his safety.

I love your post. You said what I felt, only much more eloquently. I still find it hard to accept that 25% of women are sexually abused before 18 but it does seem a lot more realistic.

It just got to me that it was quoted as "fact" that "the majority of women are sexually abused before 12 years old". 67% of women are abused before they are 12?: How can anyone believe that - it is so obviously untrue.

For the record too, I have never been abused and I don't know anyone who has and I have a wide circle of friends who are all pretty open. I think sexual abuse of children is fortunatley rare. It is awful that it happens at all. No child should have to go through that but I think it is the exception, not the norm. Children shouldn't grow up suspecting people and having to cover up. I also agree that child nudity doesn't have any baring on whether a child will be abused. In fact I think the opposite.

[blessed]

Originally Posted by roxyrox

For the record too, I have never been abused and I don't know anyone who has...

This is interesting to me. Either people were sexually abused and so were many of their friends and aquaintances, or else they were not abused and neither were any of their friends or aquaintances.

I was abused, in several circumstances, different ages, different people. Many, many women I know were abused, to the point where I have been left with the impression that the majority of women don't make it to adulthood without it.

Maybe it has to do with the vulnerability of the child. Like me, most of my friends were from broken homes and had single, working parents. We were all relatively unsupervised throughout out childhoods and there was a lot of probably inappropriate interaction with older kids and adults that a more protected child wouldn't typically experience.

Maybe the unmolested crowds are the more traditionally parented kids? I wasn't hanging out with those kids, usually because their parents thought I was a bad influence .

[eviesingleton]

Originally Posted by blessed

This is interesting to me. Either people were sexually abused and so were many of their friends and aquaintances, or else they were not abused and neither were any of their friends or aquaintances.

But how do we know for certain that they weren't abused? Because they haven't said anything? I also think that when one person in a group of people says they are abused, more people will confide in that person.

Maybe it has to do with the vulnerability of the child. Like me, most of my friends were from broken homes and had single, working parents. We were all relatively unsupervised throughout out childhoods and there was a lot of probably inappropriate interaction with older kids and adults that a more protected child wouldn't typically experience.

Maybe the unmolested crowds are the more traditionally parented kids? I wasn't hanging out with those kids, usually because their parents thought I was a bad influence .

Aside from the part about being vulnerable, there are so many thing wrong with that statement that I don't know where to begin. I really don't see how "traditional" parenting has ANYTHING to do with vulnerablity. If anything, I see conservative and traditional parents as more likely not to equipt their children with the skill necessary to protect themselves and come forth when something happens. For example, it is okay to kick an adult male in the balls and run away screaming if he tries to push himself on you.

I know someone who wish her mother had told her that.

That said, I don't think parenting (by itself) has much to do with it (of course, unless the parent is the abuser).

Think about how many children are abused by teachers, coaches, priests, scout leaders, other family members--all of those seem pretty traditional to me.