help me convince my husband not to circ. our son...

[Erinok]

I'm pregnant and due in about 3 weeks. this is my second son, my first is circed, my husband insisted it was necessary. I really regret going along with it though, and I really don't want to get this baby circumcised. his reasoning is that it prevents disease. I told him it doesn't but he doesn't believe me. can anyone give me some good links or articles on the subject.....
here is where it gets a bit more complicated. we are getting divorced (long story) I'm afraid that if I opt against the circ in the hospital, my husband may get him circed at some point in the future (where it will definitely be more traumatic) he keeps commenting that the baby will need to have it done at some point and it is less painful when done at birth. CAN HE HAVE THE BABY CIRCUMCISED, I MEAN WITHOUT MY CONSENT... am I just being irrational in worrying about it.... do hospitals circ older children at the fathers request?

[2crazykids]

Not really sure what to say. Stand your ground. Get an order of protection from a judge. Have your lawyer help out. Pray it'll be a girl? I am sure some others will have some great ideas here in this forum.

[RiverSky]

Oh so sad! I second the thought of an order of protection, just in case, to stop the mutilation of your child, but (and I'm sure someone else will be along with legal specifics), you might have trouble with that since your first was circ'd.

For now, try this:
http://www.nocirc.org/

[Getz]

The American Academy of Pediatrics says that there are no real health benefits of circumcision and none of the "benefits" out weigh the risk of the procedure.

I would definitely get an order of protection against him and not allow the baby to be alone with him until you do.

I hate to be negative, but would an order of protection stop him? I mean, would he still have it done and just deal with the consquences (jail or whatever?). Once the baby is circed you can't take it back.

I would fight for full custody and make it impossible for him to have any say in medical decisions in order to save your son. It seems extreme but your STBX is being outrageous!

:crfing:

[Quirky]

I would make it part of your divorce agreement that he cannot have the child circumcised against your wishes. Or that no major medical decisions (including surgery) can be made without both parents' consent unless it's a life-threatening emergency. I would definitely talk to your lawyer about this, and also send a PM to Dave2GA, a member here who's an attorney. You can also email the lawyer for Doctors Opposing Circumcision, John Geisheker (I'll add his email when I can find it, it's here somewhere). ETA: here it is [e-mail]

It will not be more traumatic necessarily for your son to be circumcised later, when he's older, FYI. Think about it -- why would it be less traumatic for a newborn baby, who experiences searing pain that he cannot possibly understand directly after he's born, when all he's designed to expect is cuddling, nursing, and security? He will experience pain during the procedure and then he'll be urinating and defecating into an open wound in his diaper until it heals. As well, every time you nurse him in the appropriate tummy-to-tummy hold, it will put pressure on his poor injured penis.

As to convincing your dh, you can tell him that no medical organization in the world recommends routine infant circumcision at birth to prevent disease. Even in the face of the new studies on HIV coming out of Africa that have gotten so much press coverage, the AAP still hasn't revised its position and in fact reaffirmed it in 2005.

Here's a link to the AAP statement.

Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision.

Tell your husband that unless he's a doctor AND he has done exhaustive research that goes beyond the review that the AAP has done, you're not going to take his word that circ is medically necessary and unless and until he proves to you that it is, using peer-reviewed studies, you're going to put your foot down and refuse to allow your baby to be circumcised.

[caricandothis]

For the short term, since you are so close to delivering, just stand your ground and don't let it happen. Dont' let that baby out of your sight for one single minute. If you birth in a hospital, they will give you consent forms. Do not sign them and make sure you are VERY vocal with any nurse or doctor you come in contact with that you do not want your son circ'd. You are the patient, not your husband.

For the long term, I agree with that the pp's have said. Hve it written in the divorce papers that he is not to be circ'd. Good luck, mama.

[~Kira~]

I would PM Dave2GA (a member here) and ask if he could write a letter as your attorney to give to the hospital stating that if they circumcise without your consent they will be facing legal action. Or something like that, know what I mean.

I know he is very busy, but there might be something he could do if you are really scared about your husband doing something behind your back.



- Kira

[sophiekat]

can you leave him off the birth certificate? that way he'd have no legal standing to consent to anything.

[Drewsmom]

What a difficult situation. If you are divorcing chances are anything you say he'll perceive it as not credible or just something he doesn't want to hear. I'm sure that you can get an order or make it part of your divorce papers that all medical decisions involving surgery need to be made by *both* parents. However, what I would worry about equally is how he will talk to your son and what he will say in the future when he is old enough to understand. Maybe he'll drop it and forget it but only you know what his personality is like. I just hope that he doesn't make this son feel less. Not saying that it's a good reason to circ just bringing up a potential.

Something that helped my dh is letting him know that only 50% of boy babies are being circ'd these days and that it's on the decline. What happens when he becomes the odd boy out *b/c* he's circ'd and the other boys aren't. I've always felt that if he would like to be later that is entirely his choice and I would support him in it but until then, it gets to be _his_ choice not mine. He can always be circ'd but to be uncirc'd is pretty hard. Esp. something affecting his future sexuality I feel should be made by him.

It's funny b/c we recently moved from the D.C. area and I had two diff. people quizzicly (I know I sp. that wrong) look at me when they discovered that ds#1 was circ'd....one when I was changing his diap and the other a urologist. The first, a fellow mom who had a son (and not AP necessarily) said, "Oh, he's circumcised?" and the urologist was hinting towards wanting to know my religion and if there were religious reasons for circ'ing. I thought that was interesting and well before we had ds#2 but definitely left an impression on me. I hope that helps. I think most men just worry, my dh included, that they'll be made fun of in the locker room. Funny when you think about it, putting a baby through a painful surgery just so that they might not be made fun of. Who knows if it will even happen. I just plan to strengthen my ds's self esteem to be able to handle it if it does happen and by that time I really feel like he'll be in good company esp the more of us who aren't circ'ing and it's not just Mothering moms who are doing it. A lot of mainstream moms aren't as well (from experience again of friends in DC)

[dnr3301]

Originally Posted by Erinok

my husband may get him circed at some point in the future (where it will definitely be more traumatic) he keeps commenting that the baby will need to have it done at some point and it is less painful when done at birth.

well, right here shows that he doesn't know what the heck he's talking about/ It is NOT less painful at birth. It is actually MORE painful at birth. I suppose one could argue that it is harder psychologically for older people to have it done, but one just simply can not argue that it is less painful for an older person.

reasons? glad you asked:

1. in newborns, the foreskin is fused to the glans (head) of the penis with the same type of fusing as your fingernails. At the beginning of the procedure, they have to break that apart, which they do with a blunt instrument. As people age, the body naturallt breaks down the fusing, so that part of it is eliminated altogether. =less pain as older

2. in newborns, they rarely give pain relief, period, and those who do use types that aren't sufficient, with older people, they are given pain meds that address the surgical procedure that it is.

3. post-op pain management for newborns is limited to tylenol and the like, and is dependent on other people (parents) for dispensing it. Adults can manage their own pain meds, and are often given more than tylenol.

for some reason people seem to think that babies don't experience pain the way adults do. To some extent they are right. There is loads of research out there that suggests that babies experience more pain, over larger areas, and for longer. So it hurts them more than it would hurt us, longer than it would hurt us, and the pain is in a larger area. Fun.

Even if 100% of men had to be circumcised as adults, I still wouldn't do it to my newborn.

[Cassandra M.]

Originally Posted by dnr3301

well, right here shows that he doesn't know what the heck he's talking about/ It is NOT less painful at birth. It is actually MORE painful at birth. I suppose one could argue that it is harder psychologically for older people to have it done, but one just simply can not argue that it is less painful for an older person.

reasons? glad you asked:

1. in newborns, the foreskin is fused to the glans (head) of the penis with the same type of fusing as your fingernails. At the beginning of the procedure, they have to break that apart, which they do with a blunt instrument. As people age, the body naturallt breaks down the fusing, so that part of it is eliminated altogether. =less pain as older

2. in newborns, they rarely give pain relief, period, and those who do use types that aren't sufficient, with older people, they are given pain meds that address the surgical procedure that it is.

3. post-op pain management for newborns is limited to tylenol and the like, and is dependent on other people (parents) for dispensing it. Adults can manage their own pain meds, and are often given more than tylenol.

for some reason people seem to think that babies don't experience pain the way adults do. To some extent they are right. There is loads of research out there that suggests that babies experience more pain, over larger areas, and for longer. So it hurts them more than it would hurt us, longer than it would hurt us, and the pain is in a larger area. Fun.

Even if 100% of men had to be circumcised as adults, I still wouldn't do it to my newborn.

Amen!


For babies older than newborns, they wait until they can put them out under general anesthetia at 1 yr of age. I don't get why they think it's ok to put a conscious newborn through the procedure, but any older and they need to be put under. :

[eepster]

This is the canadian pediatric societies handout on circ it is less wishy-washy than the US one, but still a completely credible nonbiased source http://www.caringforkids.cps.ca/babies/Circumcision.htm

[A&A]

Please read this article: (DON'T show it to your dh, though. Just read it and think about it)

http://www.stopcirc.com/vincent/vuln...ty_of_men.html

(NOTE: This article may or may not apply to you because you're getting divorced, though.)


But I agree, if it comes down to it, leave him off the birth certificate. But leaving him off the birth certificate means that it will be harder for you to get child support.

[Sijae]

definitely stand your ground. It should be in the divorce agreement that he doesn't take the new baby for visitation away from your presence for at least a year anyway because of breastfeeding. I would also put in the agreement that there will be no circumcisions without both parents consent. I would personally spell out the circumcision thing specifically in the divorce agreement and not just say surgery. By the way I would insist on this even if I got divorced now when my boys are a lot older - it's just one of those things I'm paranoid about. If it were me I would get a legal document barring circumcision before the baby is born just in case.

Laura

[Lula's Mom]

Originally Posted by Erinok

his reasoning is that it prevents disease. I told him it doesn't but he doesn't believe me. can anyone give me some good links or articles on the subject.....

http://nocirc.org/position/

This page contains the position papers and guidelines of medical associations worldwide.

I hope you will talk to the lawyers and do whatever is necessary to protect your son. Order of protection, 'no circumcision' in the divorce agreement- definitely. Spell it out in no uncertain terms.

I'm sorry you're going through this.