Am I The Only One Who Has a Problem With This???

[Rain]

Hillary Clinton was just at the local school commending the afterschool and Saturday program to prep students for the 8th grade competency exam. 275 8th graders are enrolled, attending classes afterschool and on Saturday. By the way, this school district is supposed to be one of the best.

My issues are-WHAT ARE THEY DOING IN SCHOOL ALL DAY??? Why aren't they preparing students during normal school hours?? Why should kids have to go to school on Saturday because the aren't learning enough during the week? I understand that some students could use tutoring after school for a variety of subjects, and that is good, but 275 need tutoring for one test? That is just about the entire 8th grade.

Another thing is that our school taxes are just about the highest in the country, and now the teachers are getting paid overtime to teach what should be taught in regular curriculem.

Afterschool extra help isn't readily available for other subjects. This is all to pass one lousy test. By the way, I am no fan of standardized testing, and this seems to be a bit out of control.

They are looking at this like a pilot program, hoping to do this at many more schools as well.

Opinions anyone? My close friends agree with me, but the majority of parents in the school district obviously do not. I'd like some objective opinions!

[SagMom]

"objective opinions." That's my favorite oxymoron. ;-)

This kind of thing is being done with 4th graders here, in preparation for the ESPAs. The schools identify the children who they don't think will score well and then they get tutored for the test, by ps teachers who are getting paid ot.


It's just amazing to me that anyone finds these tests worthwhile. If this is what is needed (or if this is all it takes) to pass one of these tests, why bother?

[lauren]

If that were happening in my kid's school, I would have a major problem with it. I would agree that just using basic logic, if they aren't learning the material during the existing 30+ hours that they have the children, then either they are testing the wrong material or testing the wrong children. My guess is that some parents in your district must want this or it wouldn't be happening. There seems to be enormous pressure for children to test well on these standardized tests. This seems to be not only for the teachers. In our area there is a lot of pressure on children younger and younger to be doing college prep. as a lifestyle-- volunteering for numerous organizations, being in school clubs, etc., all for the benefit of their college application process. So this seems to be just an extension of that kind of mentality.

David Elkind is an author who has written a lot on this subject. Kids are being forced to worry about things at younger and younger ages. Mandatory preschool is another outgrowth of this type of thinking, as is full day kindergarten. Kids are supposed to know more and more, earlier and earlier, regardless of developmental considerations.

Have you been to a school board meeting to raise this issue?

[Rain]

Thankyou both! I feel better that I am not the only one.

I think that fourth graders are way too young to have to worry about passing a test!

That is so true about college prep. My friend has a 12 year old who is participating in sports, extracurricular activities etc. for the benefit of his college app. Unfortunately, thinking that she is doing what is best for him, she does put a lot of pressure on him.

I don't know, but when I went to school, we didn't have all these standardized tests that they have now. The requirements were much more lenient, and if you didn't do so well, you could always go to a community college and then transfer. Actually most students did go to the local community college even if they did well, because it is an excellent school and financially it basically saved 2 years of tuition. Anyway, what I am trying to say is that many of these students went on to become well to do professionals. Without the pressures that students are facing now.

I am reading a good book right now called "Better Late Than Early" by Raymond and Dorothy Moore. It is very interesting.

I hope mandatory preschool something that never comes to pass. Also all day kindergarten, although I think that all day kindergarten would be welcome by the parents around here because that would mean free daycare for them.

It seems the parents around here are happy that the school is open late and on Saturdays to tutor their kids. I think they just take it at face value. All they are interested in is their kids passing the test I guess. I haven't gone to a school board meeting yet, but I think it is time to start.

Remember when preschool was called nursery school?

[SagMom]

The question that this brings to my mind is...if the test is supposed to indicate what the children have learned in the past 8 years (or 4 years, depending on the test) then why do they need to be coached and prepped in these special workshops?

I'm not a fan of testing to begin with, but it seems that the schools are saying, "What you really DID learn is not important, only what's on this test is important, therefore we'll coach you to get you through the test." (Maybe the test is worthless then?)

If kids can "cram" for a week or a couple of Saturdays and pass these tests, why bother wasting their childhoods in school?

[lauren]

........which also begs the question, why does public school do the type of testing they do even for regular (not standardized tests)?? Think of ALL the tests we have all crammed for, pulling all nighters, etc. to make it through a multiple choice test or even a written test. You learn all that stuff and then forget it as soon as the test is over (or maybe a week or a month later). How many of US could pass one of these standardized tests after 12+ years of education! And what does that mean?

I used to wonder what the point of it was, even back when I was in high school/college. The only answer was that it was "required." Not beneficial, not even essential, necessarily, for someone's long range goal, or for a well rounded education for that matter. I can still remember the class I learned the MOST from at community college. It was an Abnormal Psych. class in which tests were "taken" in groups of 4 students, in which discussion and debate about the answer was required. We all were requested to help each other out. Now I really learned from those tests. Did the professor still find out if we'd learned the material? yes, he just wandered in and out among the groups to see how the discussions were going. He could tell who was getting it and who wasn't. I would love to see more "tests" like that in public school!

[Alexander]

I call this type of study "vomit learning". The kids stuff themselves with material just prior tot the test, then vomit it out onto the exam paper, leaving nothing inside them.

This whole learning system is the problem that the whole education system in Japan is breaking down, (actually it broke down a long time ago, but they have run out of paper to paper over the cracks!), and why kids know nothing when they get to university.

Actually, it's worse than nothing. Nothing is not a problem.

The real problem is that they don't know how to go about learning anything, they are completely unmotivated and give up at the first difficulty they encounter.

The whole business of "getting the grade" is a left over of the "Industrial Age", and has no place in the "Information Era". For this our schools need to change quite a lot.

If we wnat to know what kids really know., testing at random times, un-announced, is the way to do it.

a

[Rain]

When I was in community college (I loved it there by the way) I had the best class and the best teacher I have ever had. I hated science, and it turns out that the best class I ever took was a lab science class. I dreaded having to take a lab science, but it is absolutely amazing what a difference a fabulous teacher can make. As a rule I am a really good test taker, but in this class I was really struggling with the tests. They were hard and very technical, and I wasn't doing very well on them. However I enjoyed the class so much, and felt like I was learning a lot, even though my test scores weren't reflecting that. Anyway, during the labs, we had projects to put to work what we were learning. When it came to the lab, and actually doing the work, all my projects came out perfect, and I got A's on all of them. In this school, lab grades and class grades were separate, because the lab isn't always required.

Anyway, when it came time for the class grade, the teacher spoke to me and said that even though I wasn't doing well on the tests, I was going to get the same grade for the class that I was getting in the lab, because she could see that I really did understand the whole theory and concept that was being taught because of what I had accomplished in the lab.

How is that for a great teacher!!! I think of all the other tests that I took all through school and college and crammed for and did much better on and can't remember a thing about what I learned in those classes. I do however remember everything from that science class.

I don't know, but I really don't think I could pass one of those high school competency exams now. I hardly remember learning anything in high school, just studying for tests. Not learning, just using memory games to pass the tests.

[SagMom]

"If we wnat to know what kids really know., testing at random times, un-announced, is the way to do it. "

Alexander, I don't think it's that simple. Depends a lot on the design of the test as well as its structure, not to mention the student's test-taking skills.

If we MUST find a way to measure students' learning, the lab approach or disscussion approach gives a better opportunity for the student to establish their understanding of the material. The trouble with this is that it is time consuming and takes a great deal of focused attention from the teacher. (100 multiple choice questions are a lot easier to grade than having to observe the labs or discussions of a classroom full of students.)

The teachers that Lauren and Rain describe sound right on to me. Rain's statement that the teacher, "could see that I really did understand the whole theory and concept" is the whole entire point, isn't it?

[AutumnMoonfire]

Maud this thread scares me. What on earth is NYS looking for in these tests. especially at the fourth grade level. I was given to understand that the testing was measuring the school as much as the kid, if that's the case then the extra prep time is entierly wrong.

Makes me want to homeschool.

Regents exams were understandable, but I really want to see a Barrons review of what my DD will actually be facing.

Wait...that would mean she's supposed to study for it, at 8ys old

Doesn't Vt keep portfolios of a child's work through the grades? how does this work in reality?

[EFmom]

This stuff is driven by politics, not by educational merit. School administrators and teachers are being evaluated pretty much entirely on the basis of the percentage of students who pass these standardized tests. DH is a HS teacher. Believe me, most teachers don't think this is a wonderful idea and overtime pay or not, most of them aren't dying to be working on Saturdays.

They already do spend the school day trying to prepare the students for these tests. They have precious little freedom to try to teach anything else of value if it's not on the test.

For some bizarre reason, the public has bought into this "higher standards" garbage with a passion. What they don't realize is that it does not mean higher standards for everyone. It actually means lower standards for the more academically inclined students as teachers now spend nearly all class time prepping for basic tests. So the more motivated students have been "dumbed down." For students who are not academically motivated or don't have the ability, these new tests are unbelievably frustrating.

I won't even go into the discipline issues.

The people who need to hear that you object to all this testing are not teachers and administrators. They are the members of your board of education and your politicians.

[Bay's Mamma]

My intention for my dd is to homeschool. DD is just four, so we've got some time to make a decision. One thing I was thinking about recently was how much time, in my opinion, is wasted in school. Between transportation to school, homeroom, lunch, study hall, phys. ed., I believe about 1/2 of the child's day is not centered on academics. Rain, you are talking about even more time? YIKES! From what I have learned so far, I think I can do all my child's academic courses in less than four hours and therefore, have time for other activities like dance and violin lessons without feeling like she will be "overscheduled". I know several parents who are in a quandry because they want their children to do extra activities outside of school, but due to school and homework, feel there is little time left, even for family fun activities.

I'm not downing public school, I had a good experience going to school. But, now that I think about it, I remember standing in line (shortest to tallest) a lot in grade school. We stood in line to go to the cafeteria, the library, outside for recess, everywhere. What a waste of time!

It just makes me sad that kids these days are spending so much time at school and are having less time to be "kids".

Love and Light.

[LizD]

Our school- a public Montessori magnet- takes the children out of class as early as 3rd grade to prepare for the FCAT tests. I would much rather such prep was offered after school instead of taking time away from the regular program to try to do well on a stupid test that measures nothing but how much money the school gets next year (even our principal admits this; scores were really bad before our governor took over and just plain changed the standards, thereby erasing the problem of lower-scoring schools. They all look much better now!). If the prep were offered after school, my child just wouldn't attend. Don't forget your power as parents; write those magic excuse notes!

[anythingelse]

Whatever happened to playing? afterschool and being with dad or mom or visiting gramma on the weekend

[khrisday]

3 words:
homeschooling
homeschooling
homeschooling

[mommy22]

The biggest gripe I have about public school is just that...testing. I don't have a problem, per sey, with standardized tests, my gripe is that these tests are so important to the school that they teach to the test. If we want a true measure of how our schools are doing, it should be thru averaging the students' grades for the whole year, all subjects counted, and go from there.

Here in Florida, we have the FCAT test. In and of itself, the test is a good one. The problem is that it only test math and reading comprehension, and the majority of the school year is spent teaching only what is on the test.

Results of this FCAT, in turn, give the school a grade (A-F). Based upon this grade, the school recieves extra funds. So we have students that pass the FCAT, but yet, cannot compose a sentence...that's not tested.

Because of this silliness, we have had an explosion of charter schools in Florida. So many, in fact, that several new charters were turned down last year.

The charter school movement is about the only thing, in my opinion, that will force the ps system to re-evalutate the way they are running their schools.

[treehuginhippie]

It is ALL political! I have met very few educators that agreed with all of the standardized testing and the methods used. Unfortunately, when the district says you will teach this way, and you will tutor after school, and all of the other crap, there isn't much choice left in the matter.

Portfolio assessment is fabulous. It is basing kids "grades" on actual samples of what they have learned. Unfortunately, in our law-suite happy society, trusting an expert to assess a childs learning isn't good enough. Most parents would rather trust a piece of paper.

[mommy22]

I've never heard of portfolio assestment, but it DOES sound great. Ah...in a perfect world....!!!