Some definitions I found

[mensright1]

Be carefull with what words you use when talking about a circumcision because none of these words allow it to fit in their definition.

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Surgery:

1. the art, practice, or work of treating diseases, injuries, or deformities by manual or operative procedures.
-A healthy foreskin is not diseased, injured, or deformed.
-Dictionary.com. Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary (C) 2006

2. A surgical operation or procedure, especially one involving the removal or replacement of a diseased organ or tissue.
-You can't remove a healthy foreskin if it's not diseased.
-The American Heritage (R) Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition (C) 2000

3. the branch of medical science that treats disease or injury by operative procedures
-WordNet (R) 2.1 (C) 2005 Princeton University

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Amputate:

1. to cut off (all or part of a limb or digit of the body), as by surgery.
-This definition contains "surgery". See "surgery" above.
-Dictionary.com. Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary (C) 2006

1. To cut off (a projecting body part), especially by surgery.
-Again with "surgery"
-American Heritage (R) Dictionary

1. remove surgically.
-"surgery" takes up 50% of this definition!
-WordNet(R) 2.1 (C) 2005

2. Traumatic or spontaneous loss of a limb, organ, or part.
-Ok, so it fits in this one because of the traumatic part.
-The American Heritage (R) Stedman's Medical Dictionary (C) 2002

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Operation:

10. Surgery. a procedure aimed at restoring or improving the health of a patient, as by correcting a malformation, removing diseased parts, implanting new parts, etc.
-Dictionary.com. Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary (C) 2006

6. Medicine A surgical procedure for remedying an injury, ailment, defect, or dysfunction.
-The American Heritage (R) Dictionary

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Costmetic surgery:

1. plastic surgery for improving a person's appearance by restoration of damaged areas of skin, removal of wrinkles or blemishes, etc.
-Dictionary.com

1. plastic surgery to remove wrinkles and other signs of aging from your face; an incision is made near the hair line and skin is pulled back and excess tissue is excised
-WordNet(R) 2.1 (C) 2005 Princeton University

1. Surgery that modifies or improves the appearance of a physical feature, irregularity, or defect.
-Notice "surgery" in that
-The American Heritage (R) Dictionary

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Ok. Um. What words does that leave us with?
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Dismember:

2. to divide into parts; cut to pieces; mutilate.
-Dictionary.com

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Procedure:

1. an act or a manner of proceeding in any action or process; conduct.
-Dictionary.com

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Harm:

1. physical injury or mental damage; hurt.
-Dictionary.com

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Attack:

1. to set upon in a forceful, violent, hostile, or aggressive way, with or without a weapon.
-I picked this word because of the "forceful" option.
-Dictionary.com

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Mutilate:

1. to injure, disfigure, or make imperfect by removing or irreparably damaging parts: Vandals mutilated the painting.
2. to deprive (a person or animal) of a limb or other essential part.
-Dictionary.com

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I could go on but I'm sure you get the idea.

[Romana]

"Mutilate" seems like the best term from the definitions, but it can really alienate people fast. For the purposes of outreach (as opposed to the angry - and thorougly justified - rants here) it might make sense to continue to use some of the terms the strict definitions would eliminate. :

Julia
dd 10 mos

[Seldon]

Originally Posted by mensright1

Be carefull with what words you use when talking about a circumcision because none of these words allow it to fit in their definition.

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Surgery:

1. the art, practice, or work of treating diseases, injuries, or deformities by manual or operative procedures.
-A healthy foreskin is not diseased, injured, or deformed.
-Dictionary.com. Based on the Random House Unabridged Dictionary (C) 2006

2. A surgical operation or procedure, especially one involving the removal or replacement of a diseased organ or tissue.
-You can't remove a healthy foreskin if it's not diseased.
-The American Heritage (R) Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition (C) 2000

3. the branch of medical science that treats disease or injury by operative procedures
-WordNet (R) 2.1 (C) 2005 Princeton University

Your second definition of surgery does not exclude circumcision just because the tissue is not diseased, it says especially if it is diseased. In fact if we want to be super-technical based on the claims of the omniscient dictionary writers, I can declare picking my nose to be a surgical procedure and then it gets caught in the infinite loop, getting batted back and forth between the definitions of surgery and surgical that use each other to define themselves. As a result, you can't really exclude circumcision from being called amputation, operation, or cosmetic surgery either.

[Seldon]

Oh hey, one of the definitions of circumcision on your favorite dictionary site (mine too):

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circumcision [(sur-kuhm-sizh-uhn)]

The surgical removal of the skin that covers the tip of the penis, usually performed soon after birth. Although circumcision is common in the United States, the procedure is no longer widely recommended as a medical necessity by physicians.
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[hunnybumm]

I asked him to post this from an anti-circ group on MySpace. I agree that these terms are harsh and shouldn't be used when first introducing someone to circ. But especially on boards like this, I see consmetic surgery mentioned a lot, when in fact it's not cosmetic surgery. I thought these definitions would be very refreshing on this board.

[Seldon]

Except that circumcision is specifically defined as a surgical procedure from the same sources that the rest of the definitions were obtained from. One of the definitions of surgery doesn't technically exclude circumcision, it says "especially" involving the removal of diseased tissue. That means that it usually, but not always, involves the removal of diseased tissue. The others kind of do contradict it, but dictionaries often contradict themselves if you try to be too technical. That's why people shouldn't try to argue with common usage (where language originates) with technicalities from dictionary writers who don't have space for, or interest in, every technicality.

Given that circumcision is a surgical procedure, as those sources specifically say, cosmetic surgery defines it perfectly when a person's reason is based on appearance, as it often is in this country.

There certainly are varying degrees of harshness associated with each term. I'm pretty sure that is the intent of most people using the terms amputation and mutilation. But that doesn't mean that they don't technically apply.

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circumcision

3. the act of circumcising; surgical removal of the foreskin of males

WordNet® 2.1, © 2005 Princeton University

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circumcision [(sur-kuhm-sizh-uhn)]

The surgical removal of the skin that covers the tip of the penis, usually performed soon after birth....

[Chapter:] Medicine and Health


The American Heritage® New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition
Copyright © 2005 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.

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cir·cum·ci·sion (sûrkm-szhn)
n.

1. The surgical removal of part or all of the prepuce. Also called peritomy.
2. The cutting around an anatomical part.

The American Heritage® Stedman's Medical Dictionary
Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.

[Seldon]

I mean, if you use only WordNet's definitions, cosmetic surgery does not exist because it does not fit its own definition of surgery unless you consider aging to be a disease.

[mensright1]

You make a good point about "especially". I hadn't noticed it until now. But when surgery is not done to injured, disformed, etc. body parts then it's considered "cosmetic surgery" because it's not done for the purpose of improving the health of the person, do you agree? If we have a phrase to describe surgery done to healthy parts, then shouldn't "surgery" not contain "especially" and "cosmetic surgery" get placed in there for clarification? That's what I think... Dictionaries need to be tightened up a little.

This isn't the only word that has poorly worded definitions. I've read many dictionaries that say "rape" is only done against women. Others say it's "especially" done against them. Some more are gender-equal and don't suggest who it's done to. There's something wrong with our society when one word is treated so flexibly like that. And it's another log in my fire of why dictionaries need to be tightened up a little.

And the thing you (Seldon) said about WordNet's definition of "costmetic surgery" not fitting in its own definition of surgery is still another reason to tighten things up. A dictionary should never contradict itself, or others. We go to them to understand the meanings of things and we should all have the same idea and the right idea after reading them.