Nursing Strike or CLW? PLEASE HELP! - Page 6

[lrlittle]

hang in there, sweet mama. and i just wanted to repeat what was said at LLL...to take EP'ing one day at a time. you don't have to decide today how long you'll do it or when you want to stop. easier said than done, i know!! i'm working on it myself...

[ndunn]

Hang in there.
I've had 3 friends to date who have had toddlers that have gone on 1 month or more strikes. Yup, it happens. All of them when teething...and at the same age as your DC. And they've all nursed again.

I guess the way I see it is that we are designed intelligently. Nursing is like a dance, and both give 50%. Sometimes when your partner is dragging their feet, you need to help them along. We are so used to the child asking to nurse because that is all they do when they are babies, that we feel like we are over stepping boundaries when we offer alot. But perhaps that is just part of the dance that has to happen. I don't believe that a toddler would just stop nursing, leaving the mother painfully engorged, etc. (I'm speaking from the viewpoint of long ago when we had no breast pumps, etc.)
Anyway, I found this article interesting. There are too pages.

http://arlinghaus.typepad.com/blog/2...once_in_a.html

[vanessab23]

Originally Posted by PrennaMama

I'm relieved to read that your snuggle-time took an up-swing, in the wake of weaning. How tough it must've been, to have this plan in mind, and then have HIM decide his own route, which did not fall in line with your plan.

If I may ask (dunno if this is too OT, and some don't approve... : ) when is his birthday? I'm an astrologer, and just curious about independance in the chart, and early decision-making ability, etc... Some boys (Scorpio, Sagittarius, Capricorn - the winter boys) seem to be more likely to have very intense feelings one way or the other, either nursing til they're like 6 or cutting it off early.

I love astrology but know very little. Yup, he's December 27th. What do you make of that???

Originally Posted by lrlittle

hang in there, sweet mama. and i just wanted to repeat what was said at LLL...to take EP'ing one day at a time. you don't have to decide today how long you'll do it or when you want to stop. easier said than done, i know!! i'm working on it myself...

Thanks Leah, I am. I was pumping less and then he got a cold so it seems stupid to stop pumping now. I've given him whole cow's milk twice over the weekend. Once alone, and once mixed with EBM. He has done fine on it, I mean-- no allergic reaction yet.

Oh and I had a dream that he tried to nurse and I started to let him and then stopped him. I am trying to gently feel that one out I know what it's telling me, but it doesn't make me feel very good inside. :

Originally Posted by ndunn

Hang in there.
I've had 3 friends to date who have had toddlers that have gone on 1 month or more strikes. Yup, it happens. All of them when teething...and at the same age as your DC. And they've all nursed again.

I guess the way I see it is that we are designed intelligently. Nursing is like a dance, and both give 50%. Sometimes when your partner is dragging their feet, you need to help them along. We are so used to the child asking to nurse because that is all they do when they are babies, that we feel like we are over stepping boundaries when we offer alot. But perhaps that is just part of the dance that has to happen. I don't believe that a toddler would just stop nursing, leaving the mother painfully engorged, etc. (I'm speaking from the viewpoint of long ago when we had no breast pumps, etc.)
Anyway, I found this article interesting. There are too pages.

http://arlinghaus.typepad.com/blog/2...once_in_a.html

I agree. Back in the day cave mamas didn't have fancy Medela PIS's and freezer bags, and sippy cups. But they also had other nursing mamas-- maybe they helped each other out in these situations? ie; A friend is going to wean soon b/c she needs to go on some unsafe meds. Her baby girl is very attached to the boob and she joked that we should swap babies I actually thought it was a fantastic idea, but logistically it would be very difficult as our caves are not very close.

And I'm not saying I know which of the many reasons are to blame, but cave mamas also didn't have antidepressants. It's still quite possible that the swicth from zoloft to wellbutrin caused (or added fuel to the fire) his strike.

Thanks for the link ndunn-- I will read it tomorrow.

[PrennaMama]

You are such a trooper.

[vanessab23]

Originally Posted by ndunn

I've had 3 friends to date who have had toddlers that have gone on 1 month or more strikes. Yup, it happens. All of them when teething...and at the same age as your DC. And they've all nursed again.

I guess the way I see it is that we are designed intelligently.

I don't believe that a toddler would just stop nursing, leaving the mother painfully engorged, etc. (I'm speaking from the viewpoint of long ago when we had no breast pumps, etc.)

Okay so I was laying in bed last night and rethought your post. I'm confused. At first you say you've seen this happen (a month long strike or more) and that the babies came back. But then you say you don't believe a toddler would just up and stop, leaving mom painfully engorged. But that's what you said happened with your friends!!! :

And back to my cave mama analogy:
A baby who abruptly stops, could lead a cave mama to plugged ducts, mastitis, death.....etc.. Or perhaps when cave babies went on strike, cave mamas hand expressed to a comfortable level??????

[alegna]

Well, if we're talking cave mamas and babies- it would be difficult at 13 months for a cave- baby to get adequate nutrition without nursing.

-Angela

[vanessab23]

Exactly. My guess is that cave papa brought home meat (that was chewed up for baby so it already had digestive enzymes-- they still do this in many tribes, ie; nepalese groups) and the other cave mamas offered their babies to nurse on the mama so she didn't get engorged(?). Or the baby died of malnutrition.:

So what do you suggest that they did? You aren't suggesting that they didn't have strikes are you?

[alegna]

Originally Posted by vanessab23

Exactly. My guess is that cave papa brought home meat (that was chewed up for baby so it already had digestive enzymes-- they still do this in many tribes, ie; nepalese groups) and the other cave mamas offered their babies to nurse on the mama so she didn't get engorged(?). Or the baby died of malnutrition.:

So what do you suggest that they did? You aren't suggesting that they didn't have strikes are you?

I don't know what they did. I do think it is less likely they had strikes. Self preservation is a pretty strong instinct. If they weren't getting enough nutrition without nursing (and were hungry) I expect they'd nurse. It's not really a fair comparision if you go too deeply, because of course we don't want to starve our babies...

I'm sure they chewed bits of food here and there. I seriously doubt that it was a normal thing to do *more* than a few bites here and there. Humans are not designed to regurgitate like some animals.

-Angela

[pixiepunk]

here are my somewhat scattered thoughts on the subject...

i'm sure there were sometimes nursing strikes, but i do think that they probably were less frequent. if you think of many of the common reasons behind strikes - like a change in mom's diet or medication for instance - those triggers didn't exist. diets were very consistent (and probably a little boring...) and obviously medication as it exists today did not exist then.

other things that can cause strikes, like mama reacting badly to a bite, for example... that can happen more in modern times because a lot of moms don't know how to deal with that type of behavior until *after* the strike happens and they read up and say "oh no! i shouldn't have yelled and pulled him off, i should've pushed him further onto the breast!" - but when you're around nursing pairs for your entire life you've probably seen that a zillion times and would not therefore react that way in the first place, kwim?

and also, it's hard to know exactly how much knowing that our modern tools are there for us affects how we deal with a strike. we are able to offer expressed milk or formula, or more pureed food if the child isn't nursing - and thankfully so! not only do we know it, but our children know it too on some level. we're not going to let our child starve, why would we in this day and age? we wouldn't want to withold all other food and drink from a striking toddler, obviously - but our cave sisters probably didn't have much choice because there weren't a lot of options. so it probably is more likely that the child would eventually nurse out of sheer desperation and overwhelming hunger. it's not advisable, IMO, to withold these things when you've got options, and i would never advise such a thing. but if you have no other choice, then that's just what would happen, and i imagine the child would either nurse again or fail to thrive.

and finally, i think living in a small society where you have lots of support from family and friends, as our cave sisters would have, allows you more of an opportunity to just do nothing but cloister yourself away and have a nurse-in for as long as it would take while your sisters, mom, etc. helped you out with other responsibilities. most of us are unfortunately very far from family and friends and can not say to them "can you clean my house and cook my meals and care for my older children while i get this nursing strike under control?" but the rest of the tribe would likely absorb those responsibilities as the survival of one of its members depended on it.

so i guess i mostly think that things are so drastically different now-a-days than they were then that it's almost impossible to even contemplate how it would affect a nursing relationship on the most very basic level.

[MovingMomma]

Wow, momma. I've got to congratulate you on your persistence & positive attitude! Your little guy is lucky to have you!

I did have two thoughts that I didn't see mentioned earlier in the thread:
1) Could he have an ear infection? This could make sucking painful.
2) Have you considered trying a nipple shield? This would provide some degree of protection from being bitten & maybe baby would find it tolerable.

[vanessab23]

Originally Posted by pixiepunk

here are my somewhat scattered thoughts on the subject...

i'm sure there were sometimes nursing strikes, but i do think that they probably were less frequent. if you think of many of the common reasons behind strikes - like a change in mom's diet or medication for instance - those triggers didn't exist. diets were very consistent (and probably a little boring...) and obviously medication as it exists today did not exist then.

other things that can cause strikes, like mama reacting badly to a bite, for example... that can happen more in modern times because a lot of moms don't know how to deal with that type of behavior until *after* the strike happens and they read up and say "oh no! i shouldn't have yelled and pulled him off, i should've pushed him further onto the breast!" - but when you're around nursing pairs for your entire life you've probably seen that a zillion times and would not therefore react that way in the first place, kwim?

and also, it's hard to know exactly how much knowing that our modern tools are there for us affects how we deal with a strike. we are able to offer expressed milk or formula, or more pureed food if the child isn't nursing - and thankfully so! not only do we know it, but our children know it too on some level. we're not going to let our child starve, why would we in this day and age? we wouldn't want to withold all other food and drink from a striking toddler, obviously - but our cave sisters probably didn't have much choice because there weren't a lot of options. so it probably is more likely that the child would eventually nurse out of sheer desperation and overwhelming hunger. it's not advisable, IMO, to withold these things when you've got options, and i would never advise such a thing. but if you have no other choice, then that's just what would happen, and i imagine the child would either nurse again or fail to thrive.

and finally, i think living in a small society where you have lots of support from family and friends, as our cave sisters would have, allows you more of an opportunity to just do nothing but cloister yourself away and have a nurse-in for as long as it would take while your sisters, mom, etc. helped you out with other responsibilities. most of us are unfortunately very far from family and friends and can not say to them "can you clean my house and cook my meals and care for my older children while i get this nursing strike under control?" but the rest of the tribe would likely absorb those responsibilities as the survival of one of its members depended on it.

so i guess i mostly think that things are so drastically different now-a-days than they were then that it's almost impossible to even contemplate how it would affect a nursing relationship on the most very basic level.

: ITA

Originally Posted by MovingMomma

Wow, momma. I've got to congratulate you on your persistence & positive attitude! Your little guy is lucky to have you!

I did have two thoughts that I didn't see mentioned earlier in the thread:
1) Could he have an ear infection? This could make sucking painful.
2) Have you considered trying a nipple shield? This would provide some degree of protection from being bitten & maybe baby would find it tolerable.

Thanks movingmomma--
a couple days into it he got sick so we took him in to get his ears checked. they were fine.
i was on a nipple shield the first 7 or 8 weeks after he was born, and I am not eager to return there! But, it is a suggestion I hadn't gotten yet. I wonder if it would make him feel even more free to bite harder since there would be more resistance and less pain for me.

Dunno. Thanks for the hugs!

[ndunn]

Originally Posted by vanessab23

Okay so I was laying in bed last night and rethought your post. I'm confused. At first you say you've seen this happen (a month long strike or more) and that the babies came back. But then you say you don't believe a toddler would just up and stop, leaving mom painfully engorged. But that's what you said happened with your friends!!! :

And back to my cave mama analogy:
A baby who abruptly stops, could lead a cave mama to plugged ducts, mastitis, death.....etc.. Or perhaps when cave babies went on strike, cave mamas hand expressed to a comfortable level??????

Sorry, I didn't see this post until now. What I should have clarified is that while I have seen nursing strikes that last that long, they were always in the presence of an external factor (paci, bottles, too much other liquid, too much solids, teething...) and often combined with sickness (cold, flu, whatever). The babies did come back, yes, but not without effort from the mother. I've known a few other mothers who have had the same thing happen and interpreted it as weaning and their children haven't gone back to nursing. That is why I was saying its kind of like a 50/50 dance.

And do I think nursing strikes happened in cave-times? Maybe once in a blue moon, but not to the degree that they do today where we have a totally different idea about attachement to our young.

Hope that clarifys things a bit for you.

[vanessab23]

Update

Originally Posted by ndunn

Sorry, I didn't see this post until now. What I should have clarified is that while I have seen nursing strikes that last that long, they were always in the presence of an external factor (paci, bottles, too much other liquid, too much solids, teething...) and often combined with sickness (cold, flu, whatever). The babies did come back, yes, but not without effort from the mother. I've known a few other mothers who have had the same thing happen and interpreted it as weaning and their children haven't gone back to nursing. That is why I was saying its kind of like a 50/50 dance.

And do I think nursing strikes happened in cave-times? Maybe once in a blue moon, but not to the degree that they do today where we have a totally different idea about attachement to our young.

Hope that clarifys things a bit for you.

It does, thanks.


Update: Still no nursing and I'm still pumping 1 - 4 x/day
:

--Vanessa