Love and Logic

[ErinB]

Has anyone heard of Love and Logic? It's a series of books and seminars on parenting based mostly on the teachings of Jim Fay.

My husband's therapist is recommending it to him, and I want to know if anyone here has any experience with any of the material, and if so, what your opinion is.

[mom22girls]

Seems a bit controversial among the folks on this board. I know there are older editions of the books that promote spanking and time-out. But the books I bought don't have any references to either. They do mention sending kids to their rooms, but encourage parents not to set a timelimit - e.g. please go to your room until you feel you can speak in a pleasant tone of voice to me... I like them, though, : they stress logical consequences. I don't think it works for the younger children, but it does seem to work fairly peacefully with my 5 year old. The website is www.loveandlogic.com, and I know there's an audio clip you can listen to and there may be a video, but I don't stream very well. What I get out of it, and what has been good for me, is their assertion that kids need to learn their own control, through making mistakes and learning from them, rather than being controlled by their parents and "taught" a lesson. Just my opinion.

[mamaduck]

I really appreciate the rationale and the philosophy behind this approach, but I have to say that the examples given in the book are lousy and do not fit their rationale very well. For me, it was an irritating book to read, because there were jumps in logic between ideas and illustrations. Many of the examples are NOT tactics that I consider respectful with children.

Having said that, I have read much worse. Love and Logic is very helpful to many families who would be spanking and loosing control otherwise.

[Spanish Rose]

It's an interesting idea, but the application is absolutely horrible. Many of the examples don't fit the rationale at all and are really just punitive consequences. The younger book (L&L From Birth to Six, or something like that) is pretty bad imho. Just punitive parenting dressed up with fancy words.

That said, it IS worth a look. The underlying concepts are sound, and some of the ideas are very good, especially for issues such as backtalk. The books are very focused on behavior, so if that's your main goal, you may like them.

[Bellejar]

Over the top

I read love and logic and thought it was pretty out there. I agreed with the premises, but not how far they carried them. I think the leaving your child on the side of the road part was a bit much for me. I really like the Sears Discipline book. I am very much an AP style parent.

[Valian]

There are lots of threads on the books here, just search for the title.

There may be some redeeming value for older kids in allowing them to experience logical outcomes for their actions. Don't do your homework, get a bad grade. But, my Mom bought us the books for birth-six and it does not at all fit with positive or gentle discipline.

This is just a brief outline but in one memorable example, the authors reccomend putting the lock for your child's bedroom door on the outside so you can lock him/her inside for a timeout. You wait listening outside the door until your (in the example 18 mo) is finished screaming and crying, then you ask if s/he is ready to be nice and if they say yes, you embrace them and if not, you close the door again. They give no time limit for how long you should lock your child in to scream and cry alone. :

[RomanGoddess]

Agree with the previous poster. I love the concept but I think some of the examples would or could be inappropriate. I would never lock a person in her room, at any age, for example.

That being said, I have learnt a lot from the book about practising empathy, offering choices, and using discipline as a way of making children responsible for their own actions.

[chicagosarah]

my husband and i went through the love and logic class, and i have to say that i was totally turned off by it. we used the DVDs in our class, so we got to not only read the authors' words but SEE the emotions and feelings they had as they taught on the subject. let's just say what we saw wasn't very reassuring.

for those of you who don't know, the DVD has the founder of L&L and his adult son teaching. the thing that REALLY creeped me out was the sadistic gleam in the son's eye as he would say over and over how he loved it when his kids misbehaved so that he could use his Love and Logic strategies on them. it seems to me, that his father's use of love and logic on HIM during his childhood turned him into someone who believes that manipulating kids is fun now that HE's the parent and the one in power. he really seems to enjoy being so smart that he can get his kids to do what he wants, seemingly without fuss or argument from them (mainly because the kids give up after a point when they realize their needs are not going to be listened to).

i have to admit that as a technique, it is probably effective in getting kids to behave the way parents want them to in the short run, but if the long-term testimonial as seen in the founder's son is someone who delights in being a puppeteer of his own kids, i don't think that it produces the result that most of us would be looking for as parents.

also, the home page for love and logic claims, 'Kids don't come with an owner's manual, but I've found one, it's Love and Logic.' the runon sentence aside, this should tip you off that it's about controlling kids' behavior, not dealing with the underlying unmet needs that may contribute to the behavior.

those are my thoughts on L&L, anyway...

[somanythings]

I agree with the thought that the concept makes sense, esp. for older kids, but it can be used to punitive ends - we just had a speaker come to our church's mother's group. One of the examples from the video was a 16 month old who wanted to go climb the (dangerous) spiral staircase, and "knew not to" (inappropriate expectations/setting child up for failure) so when he went toward it - when all the adults were ignoring him - he was physically restrained until he had a fit - which the guy telling the story found hilarious and a great example of the baby learning "he wasn't in control". How about if you have something that is dangerous in your home, you childproof it and don't expect a 16 month old to not want to climb a facinating challenging piece of equipment? The concepts of "wanting them to mess up" or being excited when your child does something wrong so you can gloat over them and then tell them what they should have done icked me out.

[Zonie]

I have only read the love and logic for teens, and I love it. It makes so much sense.

It's hard to tell where to draw a line for teens between letting go, and holding on. But, this book makes it so much clearer, and gives great ideas.

[PatchyMama]

I agree with most of the previous posters. We had to take this class as part of the girl's co-op preschool. I see why they choose the class.. its a middle of the road method and definately better than spanking, etc. However I did find most of the younger child stuff to be disrespectful and very punative. I do see how it could be used in a positive, teaching manner with teenagers tho.

[thehappyhippo]

Yep, a lot of the stuff geared for younger children just seems wrong. I started falling prey to their ideas until I sat and thought about it for awhile though.

However, I am currently reading one of their other books in the series "From Innocense to Entitelement" and I really liked the first half of it. Now they are getting into how to actually apply certain parenting methods to acheive the ideas presented in the first half of the book. Some of their applications don't sit well with me, however others seem to be a solution I feel "works".

Has anyone else read this book?

Do you have any other good suggestions for books that adress entitlement? I am completely against the entitlement mentality in our culture and want to do what I can to bring my children up in a way that will at least show them that it is not an acceptable attitude in our home.

[mamaduck]

jess -- I just read the reviews for that book at amazon. It doesn't sound like my kind of thing.

[thehappyhippo]

Originally Posted by mamaduck

jess -- I just read the reviews for that book at amazon. It doesn't sound like my kind of thing.

I just read the reviews too. The individual that gave a negative review referred to the examples that I also hate and give all of these books such a bad name. There is only one example that I saw that I thought was a good way to handle a situation. I am only a little half way through the book but don't really plan on finishing it. The first half of the book, I like. It discusses what entitlement is and how it destroys our lives and affects our society. What I don't like is the second part of the book that discusses application of the theory - how they jump to that in to explaining how to avoid entitlement in your children. It would seem like that if you had a healthy attachment to your kids in the first place you wouldn't use the tactics they suggest, let alone would they be necessary.

So, I guess I am looking for a more GD acceptable book that specifically references the idea of entitlement.