Unconditional Parenting vs. Natural Consequences?

[Amber Lion]

So I just started reading Unconditional Parenting this weekend (I'm about half way) since it's been highly recommended numerous times on this forum. I was surprised to read that Alfie Kohn does not support natural consequences - something I've also seen discussed in a very positive light on this forum. I don't have the book with me or I'd quote it, but the gist was that natural consequences teach our children that the parent had the opportunity to help them and chose not to (or had the opportunity to avert an unpleasant experience but chose not to) and therefore is a form of conditional parenting i.e. a parent will help or protect their child only when s/he does xyz. He said that "consequences" was just a fancy word for punishment and didn't condone it.

Your thoughts?

Thanks in advance, I'm new to GD and all these ideas and am enjoying exploring them.

[LeslieB]

: I'm halfway through the book, too.

[mowilli3]

I just started reading it this weekend and I have to wait until DH is home to read because he doesn't want to miss anything. I love reading with him, but I want to read faster... argh!

Anyway, I think that consequences we expect sometimes don't come to pass and in some cases it's worth giving the kid a shot at trying the thing. Let me try to explain. My DD was hellbent on standing on the coffeetable. Everyday she would climb up on it and stand, then wave and shout "Hello, Friends!!" Everyday. We tried to remove her everytime or keep her from getting up there. Why? Because we anticipated that she would fall and hurt herself. Finally one night I told DH to just let her fall if she was so insistent on getting up there. And guess what? She didn't fall off. She stayed in the middle of the table walking from end to end waving to her friends (me, DH, and DS). I wasn't trying to punish her so much as just letting her do her thing and getting it out of her system. I would never let her touch fire to teach her that it's hot. But I wasn't confident in her balance whereas she was. Maybe she's practicing for a campaign tour or something! Now I just wave back and remind her to be careful.

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by Amber Lion

. . . but the gist was that natural consequences teach our children that the parent had the opportunity to help them and chose not to (or had the opportunity to avert an unpleasant experience but chose not to) and therefore is a form of conditional parenting i.e. a parent will help or protect their child only when s/he does xyz. He said that "consequences" was just a fancy word for punishment and didn't condone it.

Your thoughts?

I agree. If my kid doesn't want to put on his coat, but it's cold outside, how kind is it to say, "Fine. You don't have to wear your coat." and take him out and let him be cold? To me, that's punishing the kid with coldness so that next time he'll listen to me when I say, "It's cold out, you need a coat." Yes, it's a "natural consequence" but it's still something miserable that I could have prevented and chose not to b/c the kid didn't take my word for it that he needed a coat.

On the flip side, if I say, "Fine. You don't have to wear the coat. But, I'll bring it just in case." and then offer it up w/out any "I told you so." There's an unconditional response that doesn't hinge on me "getting my way" or not. And my kid knows I'm looking out for him and we are working on the same team. There's a level of trust that is built in this scenario that I much prefer, too.

[Amber Lion]

Hmm, I see what you're saying monkey's mom about the intention. If you're not intending to let your kid freeze in the cold to "teach him a lesson so he'll bring his coat next time", but instead avoiding a power struggle in getting out the door and allowing him to learn that "brr, it's cold and I want my coat and here it is!" then it doesn't feel like punishment.

In mowilli3's example, what if the child *had* fallen and hurt herself? Would you view it in the way Alfie Kohn says that the parent had the chance to keep the child from being hurt and didn't so it was therefore a punshiment for not getting off the table when asked? Do you think the child would lose trust in her parent for not *making* her get off the table and saving her from the hurt of falling? I can see the same punishment intention here, if you're hoping your child will get hurt to learn their lesson. How would you flip that intention in this scenario - or would you not have let your child try the coffee table walking in the first place?

(I'm not meaning to say that mowilli3 did anything wrong or was hoping her dd would get hurt... I'm just using that example to dig further into this. )

[monkey's mom]

Yes, intent would play a big part in it. If you went in with the, "Fine, go ahead and do the dangerous thing, but don't come crying to me." attitude, and you didn't reach out when the kid was falling, then that's punishment to me.

In that coffee table situation, I would help the child do the dangerous thing in the safest way possible--maybe putting cushions around the coffee table, moving it away from other hard things, holding my hands out to spot if the kid was agreeable. So, you are also helping the child by mitigating the potential natural consequences, rather than standing by and letting it be bad for the sake of learning--or for being right.

I'm also a fan of telling the child my fears ("I'm afraid you could fall." "It makes me nervous to watch you.") and not stating absolutes that may not be true ("If you get on the table you will fall." The child may NOT fall, and now you're a liar. ).

If after all that, the child fell and got hurt, I'd just comfort the child and see if they wanted to try it again how we could make it happen more safely by doing some problem solving together.

In all of it, as long as I'm working and focusing on being on my kids' team and not on opposing teams, that helps me keep it authentic and unconditional.

[pitchfork]

I'm about 3/4 thru the book too! I really had to say, I agreed with him, and I also think kids will get plenty of natural consequences in life that I can't prevent, like him falling when I'm just out of reach of catching him. I liked the idea of taking the coat along and offering it, but if it became every time I guess I would wonder what other tack I could take. DS is 12 mo, and I notice that if I do let something small happen to see if he will learn, he looks at me very hurt, as if just to say what AK talks about, "why didn't you help me?"

An another note, my DH was at a coffee shop today, and overheard one mom telling the other that her son only walks when she cheers for him. WALKS! Such a basic skill. I think the drive to learn is so strong, and I don't want to interfere with it with praise. I'm so glad I'm reading the book. The same might be true with consequences. If DC understand that we will help them, but also see what would have happened if we did not, can we trust them to learn to do what is best for them?

[flowers]

I am 3/4 through the book to and I do agree with a lot of what he says. We are in a deep freeze here in New England and ds (2) is anti-coat...seriously. So I always offer him his coat and if he refuses he goes out and plays and either returns in 15 minutes (way longer than I could last!) or I go out after a good 5 minutes and just hold it up and he puts it on.

If he refuses to put shoes or boots on I tell him he can't walk to the car by himself and I will carry him. Or he can put on his shoes and walk himself. He fusses over it a few minutes and then makes a choice.

What about baths? I mean ds hasn't taken a bath in a long time...he hates them! What do I do about basic cleanliness?

[Dar]

Originally Posted by Amber Lion

Hmm, I see what you're saying monkey's mom about the intention. If you're not intending to let your kid freeze in the cold to "teach him a lesson so he'll bring his coat next time", but instead avoiding a power struggle in getting out the door and allowing him to learn that "brr, it's cold and I want my coat and here it is!" then it doesn't feel like punishment.

Well, but it doesn't feel *nice*, either. I always just throw the coat in the car if Rain didn't want to wear it. If I forgot, I'd share mine. I think it's all about how you would want to be treated. If I forget a coat, or get a headache and have no aspirin with me, or need cash and forgot to hit the ATM, Rain gives me hers without a second thought. Isn't this what we want from our children?

Originally Posted by flowers

What about baths? I mean ds hasn't taken a bath in a long time...he hates them! What do I do about basic cleanliness?

Would he prefer a shower? Sometimes those are more fun... especially if you get in with your clothes on, and then strip down in there. Or wear a swimsuit...

dar

[susank]

My son went through a no bath phase. I took a bath with him for about a week and then he got over it. I've read 2 chapters in unconditional so far.

[mama42dds]

[QUOTE=monkey's mom;7282401]

In that coffee table situation, I would help the child do the dangerous thing in the safest way possible--maybe putting cushions around the coffee table, moving it away from other hard things, holding my hands out to spot if the kid was agreeable. So, you are also helping the child by mitigating the potential natural consequences, rather than standing by and letting it be bad for the sake of learning--or for being right.

I'm also a fan of telling the child my fears ("I'm afraid you could fall." "It makes me nervous to watch you.") and not stating absolutes that may not be true ("If you get on the table you will fall." The child may NOT fall, and now you're a liar. ).

If after all that, the child fell and got hurt, I'd just comfort the child and see if they wanted to try it again how we could make it happen more safely by doing some problem solving together.

In all of it, as long as I'm working and focusing on being on my kids' team and not on opposing teams, that helps me keep it authentic and unconditional.[/QUOTE

I like these ideas, but I wonder how it works with younger siblings that want to mimic his/her older brother/sister? It is a different story when you have a 11 month old trying to climb the coffee table too?!? Any ideas on working with your 3 yo on these situations? BTW, I am also a big fan of UP - but am having trouble getting my dh to implement (he is stuck on the consequences thing...

[monkey's mom]

Oh yeah, my 1.5 yr. old is right next to the 5 yr. old on the coffee table! I just try to keep things safe and do a lot of spotting.

My older went through a loooong phase of not wanting to shampoo his hair and we tried many many many different ideas, but ultimately it was his body his choice and he went almost a year without shampooing! He was still getting haircuts and would occassionally let me run a wet washcloth over it, so it wasn't HORRIBLE, but it was HARD for me. That was a couple of years ago, and now he shampoos regularly and happily.

[monkey's mom]

Originally Posted by Dar

I think it's all about how you would want to be treated. If I forget a coat, or get a headache and have no aspirin with me, or need cash and forgot to hit the ATM, Rain gives me hers without a second thought. Isn't this what we want from our children?

So true! The other day we were in line for a coffee and a snack and my 5 yr. old offered to spend his allowence money on a cookie for me. : And he wasn't getting anything there--lots of food sensitivities--he just really wanted to do something kind for me.

And if I haven't thanked you lately, Dar--THANK YOU! : Reading about your relationship with Rain and how you parent her changed my life. And the lives of my kids!

[nathansmum]

Originally Posted by pitchfork

An another note, my DH was at a coffee shop today, and overheard one mom telling the other that her son only walks when she cheers for him. WALKS! Such a basic skill. I think the drive to learn is so strong, and I don't want to interfere with it with praise

I have been a UP fan for over a year, but have a dd that *did* need the encouragement to walk and it threw me a bit (after having a ds who was keen as keen to get up and go). She didn't walk until almost 18mths and at the point of needing intervention - so I did my best to make it an exciting thing for her to be doing. Maybe not needed? But hey, once she mastered it and saw it as being a great mode of getting around she doesn't get praise or cheering on anymore lol. It's hard to know exactly what the mom was referring to - encouragement is not neccessarily bad (and not necessarily the same as praise)... I didn't do it as a judgement or show disappointment when she chose not to, just it didn't seem to be such a basic, easy to grasp skill for her.

[Amber Lion]

Thanks all for helping me wrap my brain around this concept! I really like Monkey's Mom's comment about always trying to look at it from the standpoint that she's on the same team as her kids. And Dar's about it not feeling nice. Those make sense in a way I think I could apply to any given situation. I think I'm going to print out this thread and stuff it into the book where he talks about natural consequences so I can always remember this perspective!