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A friendly debate????? - Page 6

Poll Results: Do you allow your children to CIO?

 
  • 0% (0)
    Yes, on a regular basis
  • 11% (33)
    Sometimes, usually for sleeping purposes
  • 88% (264)
    No, never
297 Total Votes  
post #101 of 149
Sofiamomma - Thank you for your post. It helps to know that someone understands where I am coming from.
I have found that sometimes I get a bit too involved in the philosophy and forget that everything needs to be based on our life, not a set of rules.
What I have realized is that whether or not dd and I are attached is something only we can determine. Others can say whether I am AP enough or at all but that has nothing to do with my attachment to my child. And that is what is important - not that I am AP, but that I am raising my daughter the way I think is best. And I do think it is best that we are attached, and I think that AP has some very good guidelines to help facilitate that attachment. But I don't think that I need to be labeled AP or do everything by the book to maintain a close, attached relationship with my child. In the end all that is important is my family's feelings on the matter, and I (and dh) are the only ones that can determine what is best for us. The more I have read here and thought on this subject the more I have realized that my uneasiness about allowing her to cry was not because I didn't think it was the right thing to do, but because I was worried about meeting certain standards. In this case trying to be AP kept me from listening to my instincts and my child's needs. So I need to worry less about what I am and more about what I am doing. These threads have really helped me in that respect, so I am glad to have read them, even though some ideas expressed go against AP.
post #102 of 149
No, but not "never". I tried it once. He never fell asleep. I never tried it again - it hurt me too badly to not comfort him as he wailed. Ds still has a hard time falling asleep, but letting him cry himself to sleep is not the answer for us. I think of how much it hurts me to listen to him cry, and it must hurt him so much more to be crying that hard. It's not for us.
post #103 of 149
I have never let my baby to cry alone... ever.

Now that she is 14mo I can see her mind working in different ways. If she throws a tantrum I will let her cry but she is not really crying.

My baby is a horrible sleeper and will nurse all night long. My dh and I had to do something to make this stop... I was going crazy and I did not want to stop sleeping with her. So.... sometimes at night (usualy the middle) she can wake up and my dh will roll over with her and she will cry... but not for very long. There were a couple times when I was not here and she cries for 20 minutes!!! But dh was holding her and comforting her. She does cry in the carseat and there is nothing I can do if I am the only one in the car and driving. Other then that..... no CIO.

I had a dd 10 years ago. I was a 16 year old mother and did not know much. I was married and my exdh said that she needed to CIO. That was the way. I will never forgive myself for letting her cry, alone in her crib.... my head under a pillow crying just as hard. It is just not right (my opinion)!! My older dd has always wanted to sleep with me... she never feels safe.... her nightmares were exream... she needs allot more then my bfed, co-sleeping, never CIO child. I will never alow my children to feel that way again.
post #104 of 149
No, never. I believe that CIO is one of the worst types of neglect.

My child has never, ever been left alone to cry and never will be. I'd rock him to sleep until he's 16 years old before I'd ever leave him alone to cry for me.
post #105 of 149
Yeah, I think it's hard for someone who's never walked a mile in another person's shoes to understand their points of view.
When you and your child are sooo sleep deprived that is seriously affecting your and your child's health - both mentally and physically - what is the healthier choice? To risk abuse, neglect, and the loonie bin or helping your child learn how to stay asleep, reducing the risk of mental and physical problems due to serious sleep deprivation?
Unless you've been there, it's hard to fathom.
Let's use an abstract example: a single mother of two who is forced to work ten hour days to put food on the table. An infant/almost toddler, who wakes her every half hour all night long... you can't even function enough to take care of your children, let alone work efficiently enough to keep your job. Honestly, what would you do? Go on welfare? Start a gentle sleep training program? Risk a week of "some" CIO for the longterm health of you and your family?
It's so easy to judge other people's decisions if you've never been where they're at.
post #106 of 149
I think many of us have been in that sleep deprived state and still wouldn't do CIO. My ds has never slept through the night (he's 2) and I seriously doubt he ever will. He has sleep disorders (runs in dh's family), plus is very spirited. He goes weeks with only 4 hours (with waking in between) per night and no naps because he just doesn't want to sleep. Of course this makes the sleep disorder problem much worse and he sleeps poorly for a long time afterward. I still won't CIO because I don't believe it is the right thing to do. Period! I don't think that means I am judging others by my choice, I am only making the choice I feel is right for my family. I also don't think its fair to say "if you'd been where they're at you'd do it too". That just isn't true.

Laurie
post #107 of 149
I think it is fair to say what candiland has said, because we only know how WE would react in any situation, given the benefit of our own experiences and perceptions- we cant tell why people do the things they do merely by observing them- it goes deeper than that.
post #108 of 149
I voted, No, never.

DS has been in his own room/crib since early on. DS is, and pretty much always has been, a regular night waker. From moment one, we were committed to responding for as long as he needed us too. He's nearly 2 1/2 now and our philosophy remains the same. It's not always easy, I am indeed tired, but strangely, my body has learned to cope pretty well through shear repetition. Naps, taking care of myself otherwise (eating well, etc), time-off via *Dad and DS days* go a long way in helping out.
post #109 of 149
Jumping in to say that I have had serious sleep issues with ds#2 and I have not resorted to CIO (which I define as leaving my ds alone to cry), but I understand why some people choose to. I say walk a mile in someone else's shoes. I like the example candiland gave. If I didn't have the support from my dh that I get, then maybe I'd be posting here saying that I've tried CIO.
post #110 of 149
I tried CIO once when ds was about 5 months old. I left him in his crib to cry. I had to force myself to leave and not go, then I threw up from the strain of fighting my instincts. I went and got him and vowed never to do that again.
post #111 of 149
I voted no, not ever. I do not agree with CIO, but I would not condemn another mother for doing it. I just think that most people who use CIO are not educated on the matter and feel it is a necessary evil to get their children to sleep when *they* want them to, not necessarily when the *child* is truly sleepy. I can see those who allow a short time of CIO after researching and deciding it is what is best for their family, although I still feel it goes against the whole AP package. Still I respect a parent's decision...

But what I can't understand are the people who have these preconceived notions about when babies should sleep and for how long. A poster said something about resorting to CIO after the baby kept fussing at her 7:00 bed time and went on to say that as an adult she needed sleep but not 12 straight hours of it. What makes us think babies need 12 straight hours? Maybe some do, but I tend to thing 7:00 is an EXTREMELY early bed time; no wonder the babe in question was waking. If I put dd to bed at 7, DH would only see her for one hour each evening, and half that time would be spent eating dinner. I can't imagine a baby truly being tired that early. Our 14 month old dd goes to bed between 9:30 and 10:30PM and sleeps until about 7:30AM, with a few nursings in the night that she never even opens her eyes for. She takes one two hour nap in the afternoon. She transitioned from two naps a day to one with no doing on my part. I feel that when she is tired, she'll sleep. No tears are needed, just the warmth of my embrace and the milk from my breasts. And as she's gotten older, she has started unlatching before she's completely asleep and rolling over to sleep on her own. They'll learn if you are patient and let them do it on their own time table.

And to those who say cosleeping moms suffer from lack of sleep, I feel this is just baloney. It is the quality of sleep not the quantity that makes you feel refreshed in the morning. I could nurse dd every other hour and still feel fine the next morning because all I had to do was lean over and give her my breast, hardly even opening my eyes. I was way more sleep deprived when I was pregnant and woke up with a jolt to heartburn or leg cramps or had to trudge across the house in the middle of the night to empty my bladder. I think the purpose of the nightwaking/cosleeping board is a place to go to discuss cosleeping logistics such as the size of bed you need, or when dc is teething or sick and thus waking a lot, or making the "H" position, or when DH disapproves of cosleeping, or when you get criticism from just about everyone in real life, which I think we cosleepers suffer more from than you CIOers, no offense. If we seem defensive, maybe it's because we are sick of hearing the same, "babies need to learn to sleep on their own" argument that we hear ALL the time.

Babies were designed to wake at night. They get up to a third of their nourishment from night feedings, and the frequent stimulation at the breast helps allow for a nice period of natural infertility that nature designed for our bodies to recouperate from having a baby before having another pregnancy. I did not get my first postpartum period until 12 months. The average for "ecological breastfeeding," which includes frequent night nursing is 14.5 months. I am curious as to when fertility returned to moms who use CIO...
post #112 of 149
i voted no, never i have a almost 2 yo and a 7wo and can never see myself doing that. there are time when he has cried for a long time but not because i thought it was best for him. i will always do my best not to let them cry. this is just my $0.02
post #113 of 149
since this is such a long thread, i hope to be forgiven for not giving proper credit to those i quote -- i simply don't remember who said what! i do agree with whoever said, "cry it out? what is out, exactly?" because i think there's a distinct difference between letting a baby cry for a short period (like, a minute or so) and crying it out, which essentially seems to me like letting the baby "get over it."

ds cries in the car, pretty much every time we get in it. well, i've got stuff to do, and we're attached and he goes everywhere i go, so he's gotta ride in the car. and he's crying because he doesn't like to be restrained, which means that without unstrapping him, i cannot make him stop. stopping and unstrapping him is futile because as soon as i restrain him again, the screaming starts again. there's only one thing i can do for him -- unstrap him -- and i cannot do that, so he must cry. i'm not punishing him, i'm not teaching him a lesson, it just is what it is, an unfortunate situation that breaks my heart. i've modified my driving; i bought a wire cart with wheels and i now do all of my grocery shopping on foot so i don't have to put him in the car as much and i try to walk everywhere i possibly can. but to visit family, or to venture out to target or something else not within walking distance, he's gotta be strapped in, ergo he's gotta cry. know this: i hate it. it hurts me. i feel tremendously bad when he cries and i hate putting him in a situation where he's hurting. but, as i see it, there's no choice in this situation. an adult in the backseat does no good because it's not about boredom or loneliness for him -- it's about restraint. if someone has a suggestion, i'm happy to hear it but please don't say, "don't take him in the car," because there just isn't a choice sometimes -- that's the kind of world we live in. and the things i do in the car are for the betterment/survival/comfort of our family, of which he is a part: sometimes, we gotta get in the car to buy toilet paper or soap or to visit grandma or get a haircut or pay the gas bill ad nausaeum, and i'm not asking him to "get over it," i'm asking him to "get through it." i don't know how else to deal with it.

all that said, he rarely cries at home; i have the built-in night alarm where i anticipate his waking and am able to pick him up before he starts to cry (he sleeps in a sidecar), we are together and slinging most of the day, when he's not quietly observing he's latched on or sleeping. if he starts to fuss, i talk to him, shift his position, feed him, play with him, or change him. he naturally falls asleep in the evenings between 830 and 900; i have successfully put him down without him being fully asleep two times (he's only 11 weeks) but would never do it if i didn't think he was on the verge, as it were. never would i just plop him in his crib, wide awake, attempting to schedule him -- that's not my decision, it's his body's decision. research shows that a human body responds, with allowance, to the earth's natural rhythms (circadian) and naturally shuts off when it's dark, so logic dictates that he will fall asleep eventually. and infants are programmed to wake several times at night, anyway, for nourishment/warmth/comfort/reassurance, so my body postpartum is programmed to satisfy those needs. am i more tired now tired now than before he was born? i don't think so; i think mum2sarah was right when she said she lost more sleep pregnant than she does as a mother -- that's true for me, too. i was up more than half the night when i was pregnant, whether it was peeing or muscle spasms or hunger or heartburn or just plain insomnia, it wasn't a pleasant time. i hardly wake up now, i just reach over and latch him on for the ten or so minutes that he needs, then i put him back down; this is TOPS twice a night. i cannot imagine walking down the hall to a separate room to go through a whole ritual and really have my sleep disrupted, which is where i see all this new-mother-sleep-deprivation propaganda coming from. i'm sure there are co-sleepers who are sleep deprived, but i'm talking averages here.

anyway, back on track: even good old dr. sears says, "[sic]babies cry; sometimes, we cannot make them stop. what we can do is not let them cry alone." i think that if you offer comfort to your crying baby, whether they stop or not, you are not practicing CIO. if you are willfully allowing your baby to cry alone, in another room, in order to "train" him/her to adapt to your needs, you're practicing it, whether it's to the ezzo degree or to the ferber degree. i don't think that's what i do in the car because i feel as though i wouldn't do it if i had a choice. maybe parents who practice that at home feel that they don't have a choice, either.
post #114 of 149
I wish I could offer you advice on the car crying. Unfortunately, I can't because ds did the same thing. Evnetually, he just outgrew it. Sometimes, distraction would help as he got a little older but putting him in the car seat was often a two person job because he would fight so hard. When he gets a little bigger, I found snacks were a good way to calm him down. If I gave him a banana or some crackers, he would be intent on eating and not thinking about being strapped in. Obviously, that doesn't help you yet because your ds is too little for solids. Now that my ds is forward facing (at 19 months) the carseat is less of a struggle. I don't know if turning him made the difference or just the fact that he was getting older. Good luck
post #115 of 149
I voted never, but I don't count the late nights when I've walked with the baby for an hour and I need to set her down for 2 min while she's still crying to get a drink of water, use the bathroom, give my back a break for half a second, or whatever. She rarely ever cries unconsoleably, so when she does I really try everything but sometimes my back starts to cry with her. And then it's only for a moment because I can't bear to hear her cry and not at least try to do something about it.
post #116 of 149
OK, I'll try again. Yes, I am educated. No, I do not have preconceived notions about how much sleep babies need and when, etc. And yes, my daughter really did need that much sleep. I knew that by reading her cues. She is now six and still needs 11 hours a night. When she was one she switched from 2 naps a day to one and she slept 12 hours a night. Now, of course, I am talking about something that happened 5 years ago, so my times and such are approximations I used simply to be able to articulate my story. And just because a 7:00 bedtime would not have fit in with *your* lifestyle and your dh would not have seen much of your dc that does not make it wrong for me and mine. As a single mom I parent a little differently than I might if I were a married SAHM. Also, I did not say that as an adult I needed sleep, but not 12 straight hours. I was not actually concerned with sleep. I was concerned with needing a little alone time. I did not want to be *in the bed* all evening. My dd is *very* social and likes company. She will always choose to socialize over any other activity, including eating and sleeping. Yes, she might fall over asleep dead tired if I let it go that far, but as her parent I feel that that is not healthy and I intervene to help her get the sleep (and food!) she needs. At a year of age she *wanted* me in the bed for her. She preferred my company. I know there are other ways I could have dealt with the situation, letting her stay up, slingling her, etc., but *I* did what worked for our situation, including having my sister watch her while I worked evenings. On the nights she simply *fussed* I went in and comforted her and left and she wound down and went to sleep. I DID NOT LET HER CRY IT OUT. If she cried I gave her what she *needed.* There were nights when I did stay in the bed the whole night after having been with her the whole day because that is what she needed, but by allowing her to fuss a little she was able to fall asleep and stay asleep for several hours most nights. And again we are talking about a toddler. And we are talking about a single mom doing what she needed to avoid anger and resentment toward her child. I also do not believe that the instant repsonses necessary for a wee babe are good for an older babe/toddler, but I guess that's a whole 'nother debate. I guess we can argue til we are blue in the face about what constitutes fussing vs. crying and whether they should be responded to in any situation for any age baby. Suffice it to say I did what I felt was the best thing in the situation I was in with cues I was receiving from my baby and what worked for us as a family, trying to achieve balance and weigh everyone's needs, not from a place of ignorance, convenience, selfishness, or what have you.
post #117 of 149
ITA, Sofiamomma.

And also if there are a number of children to consider, not just the one, cicumstances may be different.
post #118 of 149
Sorry, Sofiamomma, if I misunderstood your post. I was not saying that *you* were uneducated. I believe what I said was that a lot of moms who use CIO are not making an educated decision. I guess I interpreted your reference to "fussing" as CIO, and I apologize if that was not accurate. The way I see it is that newborns need a lot of sleep yes, but you said your baby started fussing at her bed time as she got older, and my question simply was, was she really tired that early? It seemed to me that my dd needed less sleep as she got older, so I just wonder if the fussing had to do with not really being sleepy yet.

ITA that small infants have different needs than older babies/toddlers. When my dd was very tiny, I'd nurse her at night at the first sign of awakening. But now that she is 14 months, if she is restless at night, I sometimes see if she will fall back asleep before nursing her, but a yawn and a whimper I feel are different from CIO, and that was a distinction I should have picked up on when reading your post, but I must have lost your true meaning in trudging through all the other posts (long thread). Again I apologize.


I guess the point I was trying to get across is that often parents use CIO because their babies do not fit the pattern of sleep that the *parents* think they should. I have heard moms say they "had" to let their babies CIO because they just would not go to sleep at some prescribed time. I realize now that you have clarified that you do not fall into this category, but my point about such situations remains the same: why not wait until the child really is tired enough to go to sleep gently instead of using CIO to get them to sleep when it's "convenient?" (Again, that is not a question for you, Sofiamomma, but more for the other moms who I have described above--forgive me for my misinterpretation).
post #119 of 149
Hey, no problem, it's okay. Thanks for clarifying. FWIW, she started fussing for me at night after she'd "gone down for the night" from the get go. It just did not become a problem until she was older. When she was little it was just what I needed to do, kwim? Anyway, my frustrations stem from several years worth of defending myself (and since I'm more middle of the road, I get flak from both camps : ), so I apologize for sounding off in regards to your post. I do see what you are talking about, had blinders on there for a moment. Sorry!
post #120 of 149
You know, that's a good point about getting criticism from both camps. I never thought about that for "middle of the road" moms, but I'm sure that must be absolutely true. Sometimes I'm so caught up in going against the mainstream that I feel like the cruchiest moms are the only ones who get criticism. If you are more in the middle then I guess it's hard to feel like you fit anywhere and that can be frustrating, I'm sure! The one thing I tell those who are critical is, "I know I'm doing what's best for *us.* I read up on things on both sides and the decisions I make are based on not just info. out of a book, but on compatibility with our lifestyle." I think that's the most important thing to remember. Anyhow, I know I'm getting off topic here, but I'm glad we were able to reach an understanding. Thank you for an enlightening discussion.
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