A friendly debate????? - Page 2

[Justice2]

To Piglet..

Originally posted by Piglet68
Wow. Thank you, all of you for making my life easier (lol) and keeping this discussion so civilized. I have loved reading ALL the posts so far...this is great!! Let's keep it this way, huh?

see, I didn't need that suit afterall!

[Justice2]

I have a question....

What exactly is CIO? My definition of CIO is actully crying. My child fusses, ocassionally, when I can't get to him right away. For example, I don't wear him while I am cooking for fear that he will get burned. I place him in he swing and talk to him while I can't hold him. Sometimes he becomes fussy. Sometimes I am in between preparing dishes and can immediately find out what he needs or wants. Sometimes I am in the middle of pulling something out of the oven and cannot immediately find out what he needs or wants. However, this is not my definition of CIO. When I think of CIO I see a mental picture of a child all alone, screaming their heads off (probably out of fear of being all alone). Whether that child be in a crib or swing or elsewhere. I really don't consider my son fussing (we call it talking, it's kinda a loud unhappy cooing as he is only 3 1/2 months old) CIO.

[mirlee]

My answer wasn't there. I have let Sam cry. He has never cried himself to sleep,however, on the advice of a friend and a FORMER Pediatrician when he was about 2 months, we tried to CIO at night. It never worked. He just went into major hysterics never once calming down. We did this three times. Each time we felt horrible.

As a baby he was not terribly fussy. His cries were usually related to hunger or messy diapers. The one thing I did notice was that if he woke up from a nap and I didn't realize it or if I wasn't able to get there in what he felt was a reasonable amount of time , he would get upset. Usually, when I did get to him he was a little stand-offish for a couple of minutes until he was reassured that I was there and that I cared.

As toddler, I will let him cry but only if he is pitching a huge fit that involves screaming and crying. I let him get that out of his system even if it takes 10 minutes. I think at his age much of his crying fits tend to revolve around control issues. I always make sure he is not ill or hurt in any way. This doesn't bother me.



edited to add:

Each child is different. What works for one might not work for the other. A little boy at Sam's daycare will not go to sleep there unless he is placed in his crib and allowed to rock and cry himself to sleep. The caregiver was sad when she realized that all her rocking and snuggling wasn't going to get this little guy to sleep. At home he sleeps very differerntly, I believe with mom and dad, but since mom and dad aren't there, he has developed his own way of going to sleep. When I saw him doing this my first reaction was to go pick him up. The caregiver said that he usually only goes through this for 5 minutes then he is sound asleep.

[candiland]

I really couldn't vote, as I felt "sometimes" was an overstatement. If there was a "rarely" or "hardly ever", I would have chosen that one.
I tried it a few times with my DD and a few times with my DS, to no avail. Reason being, I was manic depressive/bipolar, and the lack of sleep had my disorder rapidly cycling to the point where I thought my kids were going to be taken away. The only time I had where my child was not literally attached to me was when I would take a bath, and even then I could hear them screaming hysterically in the next room, even though my DH or MIL had them! My Dh and I were also having serious marital issues, and we literally did not have two seconds together - we couldn't even sleep in the same bed, because all of us would keep each other awake all night long!
That being said, I gradually adjusted. My kids are soooo not textbook. And every time I'd try to do CIO with my DD, her immune system would get so depressed that she'd end up getting sick within a day or two. So I gave up. Same with DS - some nights it would work; other nights, it would be like starting from square one, no matter how consistent we were! It just wasn't worth it to me. I figured I'd just grin and bear it.

[DaisyD]

I voted sometimes, but I don't CIO for sleeping purposes. You might consider this CIO, I don't know...
Last week she threw what I can only describe as a temper tantrum. I thought she was tired, so I tried nursing-no go, I tried holding her-no go(just kicked and screamed), so I sat beside her on the bed while she sat there and cried. I talked to her calmly and would pick her up her couple of minutes until she stopped pushing me away. Eventually she just stopped crying. I don't know why she was so upset or why I couldn't comfort her, but that was that.
I don't really think it was CIO as that to me is crying for sleep purposes and the child is left alone and "ignored" by the parents. but maybe some will think my view is too limited.

[aimcar]

I voted never, but maybe my definition of CIO is too limited? DS has never and will never CIO for sleeping purposes. As an infant his cries were never ignored. As a toddler, there are times when he gets angry and throws tantrums and no amount of redirection will sway him. So I will sit beside him or hold him if he'll let me, and let him cry. I don't consider that CIO because to me, CIO = abondonment and completely ignoring your child's cries.

[Evergreen]

I voted 'no' based on my personal definition of cry it out which is when a parent intentionally ignores a crying child. Usually I would consider CIO a horrible practice, then I read Kim's post about Dylan. She was obviously very in tune with his needs (and special needs children are oftten very emotionally different from most babies.) Unfortunatly for Kim, most people who do use CIO abuse it. And they give parents like her a bad rap from the rest of us APers. I had only heard of parents who put their babies in their cribs and let them scream no matter what for hours and hours. Sometimes these poor things would poop in their diapers or even throw up on themselves and the parents wouldnt even know, because they didnt bother to check on the baby. I didnt know how people could do this to babies, then I heard about Ezzo. There is something wrong with experts like him who promothe these methods. I have issues with him, not the parents who practice CIO (unless they REALLY abuse it, naturally.) But I dont let Dylan CIO, never have. If she fusses in her carseat I try and soothe her or pull over. Once, I had food poisoning or a 24 hr bug and did leave her screaming on the bed while I hurled my guts out. It broke my heart, but what else could I do? I do not feel guilty for it, it is over. I think we Ap parents need to realize that sometimes s*it happens, and our kids are going to cry. However, since we do not let them cry on a regular basis or to fit them into our lifestyles (when we should be molding our lifestyles around them) they will benefit from it.

[Alexander]

Originally posted by Gr8flmom
then I heard about Ezzo. There is something wrong with experts like him who promote these methods.

Darling,

The problem is, that he's not an expert!

a

[alexa07]

I am a believer in allowing a baby to cry in its crib for several minutes (not many, maybe 5) without being comforted as a method of allowing a baby to learn to sleep on its own.

I nursed both of my kids to sleep for the first few months. Then I began to feel that my kids needed and wanted more sleep then they were getting. They were waking up and crying when they were not hungry and were restless and growing more unhappy.

At the same time I did a great deal of researach on sleep. I looked at University Sleep Studies, Pediatiric Sleep Studies and Studies on sleep patterns in different cultures. ( I research for a living and thus have access to a wide variety of materials.)

I felt that in our culture (where we do not go from our parent's bedroom immediately to one we share with a spouse) that it is important to have the skill to fall asleep on one's own.

I also felt that any new sleeping environment is difficult. Many people feel it hard to sleep at first when they have a new bed or even a new pillow or blanket. I expected that my dc's might not like their new sleeping environment, at first. But like one who comes to love a new pillow I thought it was possible that they could come to be comfortable sleeping alone.

I also believed that trying to let them do this at an early age was better. So at a very early age, I let them try to fall asleep on their own, even though they cried. We never let them cry for more than 5 minutes without being comforted and we never let them cry for more than 15 minutes all told any night. They were offered bf'ing anytime they awoke and cried. But after BF'ing were put down to sleep on their own.

Within a few days my kids learned to fall asleep on their own. They woke less to feed and when they did wake up they were clearly hungry unlike before when they would pull on and off seeming restless. And their sleeping was MUCH improved. They slept longer and ate better. They seemed generally happier and calmer.

Once they had learened how to fall asleep on their own, I maintained an "open bed" policy. Any child who felt like they needed us in the middle of the night (because of storms or nightmares or general unease, was welcome to call for us or come to us.)

Now that my daughters are older 6 and 8, they generally sleep alone 95% of the time. They know they are welcome to sleep with us if they feel the need.


I believe that letting my kids learn how to fall asleep on their own was important. I simply know of too many people whose kids do not know how to do this and are miserable from lack of sleep (both the kids and the parents).

Obviously, others feel differently about these issues. Their reading of things is different. But I feel good and confident about my decsion. I did not make it because of "convenience" or to make my child "independant" I did it to give my child what I feel was the best way to obtain a valuable skill.

Please respect my choices, and I will respect yours.

[candiland]

Alexa, good points. I know from experience that I will allow any subsquent babies I may have to fall asleep on their own. When my son - who is now one - was a small infant, he could fall asleep on his own, in part because that's pretty much all they do at that age. Instead of sticking with the pattern that *his body* created, I found myself nursing him at the first sign of a whimper, squirm, or sqeal. I'd nurse him to sleep in my bed, and I'd nurse him at the drop of a hat throughout the night, even though he was able to whimper for maybe five seconds and go right back to sleep: We got into the habit of this, and now it is virtually impossible for him to go longer than a half hour to an hour at night without needing to nurse. And with a three year old and him to take care of during the day, this serious lack of sleep is screwing with my psyche. My intuition tells me that if I had gotten him used to a sidecar sleeper, or crib, or bassinet, from the beginning, he would have absolutely no problem lying down and going to bed for the night, even if he did wake up a few times to nurse. But since we are right next to each other all night long, and we are both INCREDIBLY light sleepers - he can't even move without me becoming wide awake - we are both very cranky and sleep-deprived most of our days.

[vein]

Hearing Gavin cry for any amount of time hurts, so I don't let him CIO.

He has cried, however, a few times in his carseat in the car until we got home. There was no way I could pull over on a crowded freeway, nor was I going to go park somewhere in bad parts of Detroit to get into the back seat to quiet him down. I was in pain each time until we got home, when he was promptly picked up and held. (and smothered in kisses because I felt so bad about it)

I also follow his cues on when he wants to go to sleep. If I tried to make him go to sleep earlier than he wants to, it results in crying, and to me, he's telling me he's not ready to go to sleep. It's sometimes annoying to have 2395725 things to do and a baby who won't go to sleep, but there will be a time when I'll WANT for him to want to spend more time in my lap. Just not worth forcing the issue, IMO.

[OnTheFence]

Originally posted by Alexander
OnTheFence

Thanks. I found your post really good. Very interesting.

The part about your child finally finding sleep. It must have been such a relief for you.

As a matter of fact, many children find the moments before sleep tense, and crying is a form of tension relief. DD2 had this too, but crying is not the only way children relieve tension. Laughter can also do it.

We got into the routine of laughter before sleep. Sometimes she'd drop off in mid-laugh! You have to see it to recognise the strong corrolation to crying to sleep.

BTW Could you just tell me what SID and FAS/FAE are.

a

Yes, it was a relief once Dylan found sleep and we did too. (I got pregnant a few months later...LOL) Something I learned was that I had to pay attention to the cues of my children and if what I was hearing in my heart didnt jive with mothering or dr. sears then I just wasnt going to be as crunchy as I thought I was going to be.

SID is Sensory Integration Disorder and FAS/FAE is Fetal Alcohol Effects and Fetal Alcohol Syndrome.

HAve a great day!

[OnTheFence]

Originally posted by Alexander
Darling,

The problem is, that he's not an expert!

a

No he isnt and I have had personal communication with him and seen him in action in a forum similar to this. He's an icky man for sure. And I can assure you he would call this a "hen house".

Kim

[OnTheFence]

I am vrey anal when it comes to my kids. I have been keeping a sleep diary if my youngest child. Most of his night waking is due to cosleeping with his father and I so over the next several months we will be night weaning and moving him to a crib. I know he isnt getting enough solid sleep in the night and neither are we.

[ebethmom]

I have never felt compelled to let my son CIO. I thought that as a family, we didn't believe in letting him "cry it out." What is "out" anyway?? In addition to being philosophically against the practice of CIO, I don't believe that it would work with my son's temperement. I'm afraid that he would hurt himself by thrashing around and banging his head.

He does nurse to sleep at bedtime and naptime. We had a rare night last weekend, and I didn't get home from a job until 3 AM. Ds woke up at about 1 AM, and my husband had a really hard time getting ds back to sleep. He told me that he tried "everything" including a car ride to get ds back to sleep. And then he put him in his crib to let him cry. I'm still really frustrated by my husband's response in this situation. I understand that he was exhausted and angry with me. But I think he took it out on our son.

[captain optimism]

My baby is still very young, so it's not fair for me to say, "oh, no, never." I don't want to do it, but I know I would if it was the only thing that helped him sleep. I just think it's better not to if we can avoid it.

Sometimes, when we put him down for a nap, our baby will cry for a few seconds while dh is soothing him to sleep. (He sleeps in a sidecar sleeper, which is great when he is napping or when he goes to bed before we do.) Dh knows he cries emphatically for those seconds. But he doesn't leave the room until the crying has stopped. He just quietly pats the baby or tucks him in, taking his hand away only when he sees ds has gone back to sleep. I do the same thing when I nurse him down.

I can see why some parents leave the room to reduce stimulation when they know the baby will cry for a few seconds or a minute or two. But I like our way of dealing with it better. I hope it will continue to work for us that way so that ds can always feel how much we care for him. When he cries at night of course I just pick him up and put him in bed next to me to nurse. He's still so young that it's nearly always because he's hungry. Usually he doesn't even get to cry, I just wake up when he does because...why? I don't know, I do even when he's in the sidecar and not right next to me.

whooooooo! spooky!

We do nurse him to sleep a lot, but not exclusively.

I really hate it that our baby cries in his car seat and I can't respond immediately. But I don't consider that a case of intentional CIO. Whenever possible, we have an adult sit in the back seat with him to help him keep calm.

[kofduke]

Originally posted by captain optimism

Usually he doesn't even get to cry, I just wake up when he does because...why? I don't know, I do even when he's in the sidecar and not right next to me.

whooooooo! spooky!

I also wake up a few seconds before Aaron's really awake, and he sleeps in a crib next to my bed. I think it's one of the benefits of sleeping with babe in the room - their REM cycles tend to be in sync with mom's, so you awake from a very light sleep, and at the end of a sleep cycle, rather than being awoken from a heavy sleep which is much more draining. It's not spooky - it's being in tune with your babe!

Kristin
Mama to Aaron, 1/26/03

[heartmama]

Adding to the references to special needs, ds was also a very special needs baby.

This more than anything was my motivation to avoid any CIO, or even crying without satisfaction (meaning I am one of those who would have pulled the car over, although I don't consider it CIO if you can't or/won't pull the car over with a crying baby).

Aletha Solter's books, and other research on primal therapy, highlights the critical relationship between pre verbal humans cries (meaning a baby or toddler), the response they get, and the ability to heal.

When a baby has experienced any trauma, their cries are more than just signals for pain and attention, but also an attempt to release the trauma they have experienced.

[heartmama]

Is anyone else familiar with the research by Dr. James McKenna (I know I spelled that wrong)?

His articles on the natural emotional and physical benefits of sharing sleep are some of the finest research I have come across in the subject of human sleep patterns.

[sagewinna]

I am not comfortable with CIO.

My kids co-slept, each until they were about 2 1/2. They both go to sleep fine now, on their own, and if they wake at night I usually don't know it because they go right back to sleep. They are 5 and 9 now.

The friends that I have that used CIO had kids that still cried for several minutes when they were put down for a nap or for bed, even at 1 or 2 years old.