A friendly debate????? - Page 3

[Kylix]

Nice civil discussion !!

Heartmama, your explanation about what CIO really is was extraordinary. I have always found your posts so well-written and so at the heart of how I want to raise my children.

I agree that CIO is an *intentional absence* on the parent's part. It is NO response. I think that at the heart of the attachment parenting philosophy is to provide children with a response good or bad. When a young child is tantruming, we show them how to regain control of their kicking and screaming not by ignoring them but by giving them a safe place to go and release that frustration. I've heard of mamas here talking about allowing them space to vent if they so want it or holding the child if that is what they desire. The key here is that the older child is not being left alone intentionally as a means of no response at all. Many AP mamas see ignoring a tantruming child's cries as dismissing his/her feelings. We want to teach our children to use their words to tell us how they feel. We don't do this by ignoring them. We do this by listening.

I say all this not to divert the conversation away from babies and leaving them to cry at night but to make a parallel point. If we believe, that it is harmful to our older children's guidance by ignoring their cries , why would we want to do the same to young babies??? Their needs are even more so important as they do not have the capability of understanding "mommy will be back...."

That's why this statement really doesn't make sense to me--

Originally posted by alexa07 I also believed that trying to let them do this at an early age was better. So at a very early age, I let them try to fall asleep on their own, even though they cried.

There is plenty of time in a child's life for him or her to learn to fall asleep on his or her own. Why start so young when they can't possibly understand what's going on? How can we teach our children anything by ignoring their cries?

I respect the way you raise your children. In the grand scheme of things, I do not believe that CIO is baby abuse. I think that is too strong a term especially considering the way that you have described that you use it. But I truly do not feel it fits in with the AP philosophy. To me, AP IS listening to your baby's cries.

Kylix

[FreeRangeMama]

There is plenty of time in a child's life for him or her to learn to fall asleep on his or her own. Why start so young when they can't possibly understand what's going on? How can we teach our children anything by ignoring their cries?

I just had to say I agree with this statement. My ds is very high-need/spirited. He has never been a "good" sleeper (and most likely never will). Despite this he is learning to fall asleep on his own without any prompting from me (he is 2). Starting at about 12 months he would occasionally unlatch, roll over, and fall asleep. Amazing for a child that still nursed on average 25 times/day at that point (actually it was probably more then that). We went through phases where he would do this every night, and other phases where he had such an intense need for me at night. Gradually he has slept for longer periods and needed me less at night (although we have a family bed). He is learning to sleep on his own, at his own rate. Plus, he knows that I am always there for him at night regardless of the reason he may need me. That is my job as his mother after all. I can't imagine that he will never fall asleep without me, he will not always want me around. I prefer to follow my own instincts, no book or "research" can tell me more about my child then I already know. Every instinct I have says that his crying himself to sleep just to "learn to sleep on his own" is just wrong. Other mothers will no doubt have different feelings and instincts about their children (especially in special circumstances), and I'm sure no research or book is necessary for them either. That is why listening to your child is so important

Laurie

[laralou]

I do not believe that CIO is baby abuse.

Keep in mind though, that if the same thing were done to an elderly person in a nh it would be called neglect and/or abuse. I have seen nh that were cited and fined by the state for exactly this reason.

I am not talking about you, Kim. I think you are talking about something different with your ds.

[Kylix]

Keep in mind though, that if the same thing were done to an elderly person in a nh it would be called neglect and/or abuse. I have seen nh that were cited and fined by the state for exactly this reason.

Good point, laralou. It's amazing what is seen okay to do to young children (hitting--renamed 'spanking' for example) but is thought of as abhorrent if done to an adult.

Kylix

[Alexander]

Sleeping a skill?

I can't help a giggle here. I feel it's like saying "breathing, a skill"!

IME children fall asleep when sleep calls them. Other factors are at work too. Good factors include when they feel secure and confident, happy and loved.

Other things that can help is stimulation. Putting the hoover on next to a baby's crib, rocking, stroking and massaging the body and limbs, non-dynamic music, car ride, general background conversation.

When a baby cries and is left alone, and falls asleep, I feel what it is doing is going into a very primitive survival mode. It has learned that no-one is around, and the safest thing to do is conserve energy and shut up.

Just random thoughts on my gut feelings here. I have not yet thought this through very thoroughly and welcome feedback on your insticts.

a

[CandyLayne]

we don't cio at home but like jane, if she has a melt down in the car, we sometimes just keep going if we're very close to where we're going and talk to her until we get there. if we are traveling though, we stop and calm her down before going again

[lilyka]

By the time I had my third child I relized the benifits of helping them form good sleeping habits from the get go. (wow, that experession looks stupid written out, anyway . . . )

My first had SID and would sleep anytime she got overwhelmed so spent most of her first year asleep as she was easily overwhelmed. We didn't even have a clue about her eye color until she was near three months old because she never stayed awake long enough for anyone to get a peak.

#2 being thepolar opposite of her sister was super charged by any sort of stimulatiuon and was living off of about 8 hours a day of sleep by the time she 3 months. No naps for this baby. I assumed that if she needed sleep she would sleep. I assumed that her constantly crabby disposition had nothing to do with her lack of sleep. after all if she was sleepy she would sleep. Afraid not. Some kids have a harder time sleeping the more exhausted they get. this was the case for Lilyka. She just kept getting more and more tired. And thusly more and more crabby. I don't remember when I snapped. One day when she was about 2 I decided she would begine going to bed at 8:00PM sharp instead of 12:00-1:00 as she had done all her life. You bet she whined about it., For about 3 solid days for hours. Now a year later she marches herself up to bed when she is tired before her bedtime and she has started taking pretty consistant naps. And she is once again the happy smiley girl I gave birth to. I just wish it hadn't taken me 2 years to figure it out that some kids need more help and more work to establish good sleep habits. I vowed it would be different with my next one and it was.

The day we brought Ava home from the hospital I started putting in her crib" sleepy but awake". Just like every9one out there says to. She occaisionally fusses . I tend to her if she screams but if she is just fussing and whining I let her work it out herself - she has a right to mad about it being bed time but it is time for sleeping none the less. I wish I had doine this with my other children. She is so happoy and always well rested. She is so much easier to get to sleep and lets face it. When your baby gives you a nice nap it is just easier to be a good mommy. Everyone wins and if a little fussing is what it take to make my children happy in healthy in the long run and me a well rested sane mamma then count me in.

Again I would not leave my child to scream bloody murder but a little fussin' for a few minutes just isn't that traumatizing. I guess with my first one I wouldn't have been able to tell the difference between whining, fussing and crying for help and attention but then agian I hardly ever took the time to listen. I would just shove a boob in her mouth. I like it better this way..

[alexa07]

Sorry to disagree with you Alexander. I believe sleeping is indeed a skill and is not like breathing. If it were there wouldn't be so many people suffering from sleeping disorders.

What all of the reserach that I read showed was that people who did not learn to fall asleep on their own as children had a higher risk of problems with insomnia as adults. Now, this is only a risk. It is not an absolute cause and effect.

The reserach also showed that the earlier one learned to fall asleep on one's own, the better the chance of developing better sleep habits later on. And again this just increased the odds, didn't gurantee anything.

Allowing a limited amount of crying at night when they were first sleeping on thier own seemed to be what my kids needed to get the sleep their bodies so desperately needed.

I feel I made the right choice for my kids. At 6 months they were sleeping 12 hours at night (uniterrupted) and another 3 hours during the day. I guess my kids really need alot of sleep.

If you feel you all have done what is best for your kids, that is great too.

[Sofiamomma]

I didn't let dd1 CIO until she was about one. She would go down for the night around 7pm and wake about every hour until I went to bed, 4 or 5 hours later, then she'd wake to nurse every couple of hours. It got frustrating at times because I *did* want to watch TV (read veg out) or socialize with adults, you know get a couple of my needs met so I'd have something available to give to dd, kwim? Anyway, I got to a point where I just couldn't be in that bed for 12 hours every night. I need sleep, but not 12 hours! And by then she was not just waking every hour she was fussing pretty much constantly if I tried to leave the room after she fell asleep, even if she had "the limp limb sign." So I let her CIO, which more accurately should be called fuss herself to sleep. I would give her a hug, put her down, pat her back, tell her I was going to be right in the next room if she needed me, that I'd be to bed later, it was her bedtime, not mine. If she kept fussing I'd go in every few minutes and repeat this. If the cries were winding down, with pauses to listen in between then I'd go about my business, but if they escalated into "I NEED You" screams then I would go in and lie down with her. She eventually learned to sleep from 7 to midnight, and when she was about 18 months I night-weaned her from all but the midnight nursing. I worked 3-11, so would come home and nurse her and then we'd all get a good night sleep. It did not solve all our problems. She still often kept me in the bed more than I wanted to be there, but it was worth it and I'm glad I did it that way. At six she has her own bed in her own room, puts herself to sleep and has absolutely no sleep issues. If I had to do it all over again I would know not to be so resentful of needing to stay in the bed with her so much.

[sadie_sabot]

The only times I've not responded to dd when she cried (she's almost 7 months) have been, yes, in the car. i totally lose my sh** when she cries and I can't respond. I get all shaky and freaked out and kind of frantic. ! i can't imagine what would happen to me if I tried CIO, never mind dd. I feel very fortunate that she sleeps well -- she co-sleeps and nurses a few times in the night but we don't really wake up for that.

There are times when she fusses or cries herelf to sleep--but in our arms. I've noticed if she doesn't get her nap and gets overtired, she needs to have a mini meltdown to get to sleep. but it feels right to me that I or my dp hold her through that, and I suspect if we put her down she would get freaked out and not fall asleep.

[EFmom]

I have on occasion, mostly for sleeping, but sometimes for tantrums. I mostly agree with Alexa, and have also researched a great deal of sleep literature.

My kids were adopted. We had huge sleep problems when my oldest came home. We tried all sorts of things to no avail. Nobody could get any sleep and we were all miserable, which was making her adjustment extremely difficult. I was petrified dh or I would fall asleep at the wheel, which was becoming a real possibility. We finally tried a modified Ferber approach which worked perfectly in two nights. We were all, daughter especially, much happier after that. Neither of our kids would sleep at all with us in the same room, by the way.

My younger daughter will not accept comfort when she is having a tantrum. She wants to be left alone. So, it that situation, I let her CIO.

[heartmama]

(((Kylix))) I think your posts are far more eloquent, but thank you for being so supportive!

Kylix wrote:

But I truly do not feel it fits in with the AP philosophy. To me, AP IS listening to your baby's cries.

Parents who believe children should CIO have plenty of support. All the reasons given here by parents who have used CIO would be understood and encouraged at almost any other website. The mainstream is on the side of CIO. That is the reality.

Shared sleep, or at least parenting a child to sleep (nighttime parenting) is at the very heart of ap. CIO is not part of ap. It is, obviously, the antithesis of ap. It is choosing not to respond to a child.

Ap parents have a wealth of anecdotal and scientific evidence, much of which has been made widespread through Mothering magazine, which supports nighttime parenting over CIO as the best way to fullfill the emotional and physical needs of babies and mothers.

We aren't debating whether CIO is an ap issue. CIO is not a part of ap, and I think (hope) we can all agree on that.

Which leaves me to wonder, what are parents who CIO going to prove in this thread? I understand the other thread used the term *abuse* to describe it, and parents who CIO wanted to defend themselves against that label.

This is a different thread. What is the point of a CIO debate at Mothering?

[Sofiamomma]

Heartmama,

You have an excellent understanding and clear definition of what CIO is. I don't think anyone here believes that CIO in its true definition as you explained in another post is AP. I do think that there are a lot of parents who are trying to attachment parent but when it comes to listening to themselves and their children as far as crying/fussing and going to sleep, having a tantrum, or riding in the car are a bit confused as to whether they are CIO and if that is okay if you are AP. They are trying to listen and do what feels right, but question themselves because its not AP.

Because I practiced (and it is "practicing" since I'm still trying to get it right) AP I felt comfortable with what I did. I knew my dd and myself and what we needed at that point. It really wasn't CIO, because I was responding to her on many levels. I think the debate may actually lie in what constitutes a response. I also think it is debatable whether babies understand intent. I think my 2 mo old knows my intentions if she's crying and I can't get to her right away. I'm either talking to her or explaining once I get there. I think on some level she understands. I think she also can tell if I am angry. It stands to reason she would also know if my intent was to harden my heart to her cries. Speaking of cries, I think we can also debate the definitions of crying vs, fussing and whether letting them fuss is okay.

I agree with you that emotional abandonment is not AP and is in fact its antitheses, but these parents are not necessarily describing emotional abandonment.

[heartmama]

Sofiamomma, at least we agree that CIO is not part of ap.

CIO is not defined by how loud a baby cries or for how long they cry. CIO is best distinguished by the attitude and response of the parent to the cries of their baby.

I cannot stress this enough.

No parent who uses CIO thinks of it as "emotional abandonment" of their baby. Obviously emotional abandonment is not a part of ap. That doesn't mean so long as a parent thinks they are doing what is best, that a lack of response to their babies cries is a part of ap.

I understand your question noting the tendency to evaluate the validity of a baby's needs based on their cries. In all fairness, the terms fussing/crying/whining all describe the same thing...a signal for attention.

I think that if ap is the philosophy in question, any signal for attention from a baby constitutes a valid signal. Trying to pick apart whether "this kind of cry" or "that kind of cry" deserves a response sounds like mainstream parenting. Fine for many. But again, probably not a discussion that helps understand ap.

Ap can help answer the question "How should I respond to this situation?". Responding to signals is the foundation of attachment parenting.

[Foobar]

I voted sometimes. Let me 'splain.

Goo is a very wound up little girl. She will talk to us at night. She was a great sleeper from the get go (I love that phrase) and she was sleeping over night without waking up by 14 weeks, with very little help.

She does need to get the day's frustrations out. Now that she is crawling and standing and going everywhere, she has to wind down at night. We have a routine at night, bath every other night, jammies, 2 books and then bottle.

Some nights, she isn't ready for the bottle. She wants to talk and hold. So we cuddle. Some nights she wants to play instead of go to bed. If she isn't tired, then ok, we play for 10-20 minutes before we try bed again. Well, at this point, I can recognize her cues and I KNOW that she needs to sleep. If she is truely tired and fighting going to bed, I will put her down in her bed (crib) and she will complain.
We give her about 5 minutes to complain/cry/fuss OR if she starts to get too upset, we'll come in earlier. Then we will go in, pick her up, hug and try the nighttime feeding again. She rarely doesn't want it the second time. About 60% of the time, she falls asleep in those 5 minutes after getting her stress out. Does she have any other way of getting that stress out? Yes, she will be very giggly when she is getting tired, but when she is past that edge, she will cry. She has a limited range of verbal expressions and things that are upseting; hurt, angry, frustrated, abondoned, and tired are things that she expresses with crying. Each upsetting cry is different and I need to listen for it, but crying itself does not mean she needs me. (Like today when she bumped her head. She cried from the pain, but wouldn't let me hug her. She wanted to try climbing again).

Is this abuse? Not in my opinion. My child is like me, I have trouble falling asleep if I am wound up. I need to get that energy out.
Do I ignore her? Yes, and no. I let her cry, yell, jabber to get the stress out, but if she gets panicked, I go right back to her.

Is FALLING asleep a skill? Yes. I am not good at falling asleep. I hope that Goo can learn how to soothe herself.



Heartmama asked:

Which leaves me to wonder, what are parents who CIO going to prove in this thread? I understand the other thread used the term *abuse* to describe it, and parents who CIO wanted to defend themselves against that label.

This is a different thread. What is the point of a CIO debate at Mothering?

I think the issue is that if you leave your child crying, some people consider it CIO even if you don't. I really don't consider what we do with Goo to be CIO, but others would. THAT is why it is valid to debate it at Mothering. What is the definition of CIO and how the parent responds are the issues to consider. I think too often, we focus on the C part of CIO and forget that crying child does not equal CIO.

[heartmama]

Sofiamomma wrote:

I agree with you that emotional abandonment is not AP and is in fact its antitheses, but these parents are not necessarily describing emotional abandonment.

I just want to point out, I don't think I ever used the term "emotional abandonment".

I said this in my original post:

In order to identify CIO, there has to be an *intentional absence* of response from the parent to the baby. The lack of response comes from a belief that crying without response is beneficial for a baby. These are the hallmark of CIO.

If you don't agree with this definition, fine, and I would like to see a better one. I based this on the way CIO is understood, not just by those who are against it, but by it's supporters, such as Ezzo, Ferber, and the like.

I see a number of posts that fit this description perfectly, and some insist they aren't using CIO.

We can't begin to debate this unless we agree on a definition. And I don't think a definition of this behaviour exists that understands the description I gave as ever being a reflection of ap.

[Piglet68]

I'm interested to hear reasons why a parent might choose to use CIO - reasons other than the usual mainstream garbage like "If they are fed, and dry, then they are crying for no reason". Instead, I'm hearing some thoughtful posts from parents who have obviously put some thought into the matter and come to decisions that sit right with them.

For me personally, I cannot and would not leave my daughter to cry alone. Fortunately, I've never been pushed beyond my limits. Thus, I try not to judge people for making choices that differ from my own.

I believe my innate instincts to attend to my baby, to pick her up and hold her when she cries, are something almost sacred or spiritual. Something to be honoured. I used to read about that feeling, that "urge" mothers felt, but honestly I couldn't begin to truly understand it until I experienced it myself. I feel connected to Nature and to the universe when I feel the pull of that deep-rooted, mammalian maternal instinct. I don't want to dull myself to it. And when "medical experts" (traditionally men) try to convince women that they are "ruining" their children by giving in to "emotional hysteria"...well, I find that insulting to all Women and Mothers. Each woman I know who did full-blown CIO admitted to being near ill with anxiety while they fought the instinct to respond to their baby. I am angry for them that anybody taught them their instincts weren't worth honouring. This is what the CIO issue means to me.

[Cloverlove]

I voted "no, never." BUT both my children are TERRIBLE sleepers! I am not convinced that my way is the only way or indeed the best way because they do have such sleep issues (we coslept and nursed down). It is a shame because dd was such a great little sleeper and I feel we encouraged otherwise by responding to every fuss. I *do* believe there is a difference between fussing and crying and I think being ap can mean that you are in tune to your baby winding down (fussing) or really needing you (crying).

Just my $.02

[darlindeliasmom]

I keep wanting to post, but never quite can find the words to express how I feel...until I read heartmama's posts.

Thanks heartmama, for saying what I would say if I was as eloquent as you...and not as hormonally challenged as I am right now!

[heartmama]

Piglet I agree fully with your post. It actually gave me chills. Ds is getting so big now (just turned seven!) reading your post reminded me how it felt when he was small and pre verbal and ours was a communication of look, touch, and togetherness.

I do want to point out that not every parent necessarily feels torn doing "full blown" CIO. Some ezzo boards reflect that.

Most parents respond to their babies as they think best. I do not think every response reflects ap. Some parents come to the GD board who truly think their child needs to be spanked, and benefit from it. That does not mean spanking is a part of GD.

I don't think withholding a response intentionally is a part of attachment parenting a child to sleep.

I can't change anyone's mind about it, but I do think that for the sake of parents who are attracted to attachment parenting, and are still searching for answers on these boards, it is worth repeating even if I'm starting to sound like a broken record...

(((Darlindeliasmom))) thank you.....