The Granola Extreme - Page 6

[TigerTail]

Originally Posted by Viola

Don't mess with the silverback, as my husband says.

My dh says that too.

[BelgianSheepDog]

Originally Posted by uptownzoo

Strollers, playpens, babysitters, cribs, and bottles are like c-sections: way over used, but still valuable and useful when used appropriately.

I don't know, I agree that they're sometimes overused but even the c-section comparison seems a little overdramatic. (I know you weren't trying to do that.) C-sections are risky even when they're needed. The other things...I'd say they're a lot more neutral. They are tools that can be useful or not, used properly or used inappropriately, just like a hammer or a saw. I think we give the material accoutrements of modern industrialized first world parenting too much power and weight, whether we're talking about "baby buckets" or fancy slings.

Someone needs to start laying an AP guilt trip on my daughter, though. No one told her that she should hate strollers and playpens. The fact that she will happily sit in the playpen and throw socks around (socks are toys, toys are just weights to hold the floor down) for half an hour or so saves my sanity. I have a big dog and if I want to use the bathroom, sweep the floor, and make my lunch without having a nervous breakdown, either the 8 month old or the Sheepdog or both need to be "penned." Guess which one doesn't whine and scratch the door when in her "pen"?

And no, peeing, eating, and breathing are not negotiable to me. I won't hold it until my husband gets home, I won't kill my back trying to potty with the ergo on, and I won't live off nuts and granola bars until she's 6. It's : that I feel gutsy putting my foot down about that.

[UptownZoo]

Originally Posted by BelgianSheepDog

I don't know, I agree that they're sometimes overused but even the c-section comparison seems a little overdramatic. (I know you weren't trying to do that.) C-sections are risky even when they're needed. The other things...I'd say they're a lot more neutral. They are tools that can be useful or not, used properly or used inappropriately, just like a hammer or a saw.

Yes, you're right. I guess I missed my own point: we too often throw the baby out with the bath water and demonize things (or practices, or procedures, or whatever) out of hand. I get so frustrated when I read or hear something like, "Oh, I would never use a baby swing! That's just neglect!" Well, no, it's not. It's a baby swing. Should a baby be left in one for hours? Of course not. Is a baby swing bad? Again, of course not. It's like we're afraid of ourselves, if we let a little "convenience" into our lives, that we'll be sucked into a world of forced-independence parenting and there'll be no going back. And I recently got attacked for using allopathic medicine for my youngest child's allergies/asthma, so I have a whole inner diatribe about western medicine happening in my head; you know, not evil, just overused, etc..

And I guess some of my feelings on the topic come from the fact that I changed parenting styles mid-stream, and dramatically. I cared for my eldest children in a fairly mainstream style when they were little. I think AP is better (and my youngest benefitted from my education), but my 13 and 11 year olds are wonderful people, and we have very attached relationships. This despite the fact that they went in their bucket seats when we shopped! So this whole notion that we're going to "ruin" our children with cribs or strollers or bucket seats or whatever just rings so hollow. Yes, I was mainstream. I was also head-over-heels in love with them, and bottom line, that's what I think matters. I did some things I would like to have done differently, but I couldn't possibly have asked for a better outcome, because let me tell you, those are some fabulous people, my kids.

[BelgianSheepDog]

Originally Posted by uptownzoo

It's like we're afraid of ourselves, if we let a little "convenience" into our lives, that we'll be sucked into a world of forced-independence parenting and there'll be no going back.

You'd almost think our society was founded on Calvinism. : :

[UptownZoo]

Originally Posted by BelgianSheepDog

You'd almost think our society was founded on Calvinism. : :

Almost!

[shayinme]

Originally Posted by Rivka5

There's a recognized social psychology phenomenon in which, as groups of liked-minded people discuss their positions, they gradually become more extreme over time. I definitely see that happening at times in AP/NFL communities. It's like the bar is continually set higher and higher - first for what is considered ideal, and then for what is considered *minimally* acceptable.

For example:

Mothers should breastfeed for at least a year.
Mothers should breastfeed for at least a year, without EVER supplementing with formula.
Mothers should breastfeed for at least TWO years without supplementing.
Mothers should breastfeed for at least two years, AND breastmilk should be the primary source of calories until children are over two.
Mothers should breastfeed for MORE than two years.

Or, for GD:

Parents should not use physical punishment or humiliation.
Parents should not use time-out.
Parents should not use ANY form of punishment.
Parents should not criticize.
Parents should not use rewards.
Parents should not praise.
Parents should rescue their children from natural consequences.
Parents should not use distraction or playful techniques which are manipulative.
Parents should be careful not to indicate approval or disapproval of their children's behavior.

The "right way" keeps getting redefined to include fewer and fewer people. Delaying solids until 6 months is no longer enough - now people are being urged to start later and later, and then to only give "tastes" of solids until after the first year. Keeping your child rear-facing to the seat's weight limit is no longer enough - now people are being urged to buy new seats with higher rear-facing limits. And so on.

The longer I am here at MDC and hanging with out with other AP/NFL minded folks this seems really true.

So many good thoughts have been expressed in this thread but I willsay what saddens me is when a Mama come here asking questions like is this CIO, etc? I had my first kid 15 years ago and there was no internet to hop on and "do research" and in many ways it was probably a good thing. Sometimes with my dd who is 18 mos, I feel like my behavior borders on obsseive with the need to research everything.

I finally had to put the AP checklist down and go with my instincts. I remember when dd was about 6 mos, I was so conflicted about leaving her even for just an hour and I know that came from my warped perception of AP. Thankfully I am now working on finding balance of being a mindful parent as well as a mondful partner to my dh. I think sometimes balance gets lost in the shuffle.

Shay

[TigerTail]

Originally Posted by BelgianSheepDog

You'd almost think our society was founded on Calvinism. : :

: Bwa ha ha!

[wannabe]

Originally Posted by BelgianSheepDog

I don't know, I agree that they're sometimes overused but even the c-section comparison seems a little overdramatic. (I know you weren't trying to do that.) C-sections are risky even when they're needed. The other things...I'd say they're a lot more neutral. They are tools that can be useful or not, used properly or used inappropriately, just like a hammer or a saw. I think we give the material accoutrements of modern industrialized first world parenting too much power and weight, whether we're talking about "baby buckets" or fancy slings.

Ah, well, now there was a recent study that found breathing difficulties in babies sleeping for long periods in baby capsules, along with the bad effect of the spine being in that position for extended periods. And there's evidence to show that touch is very important to normal development, so if those tools were over-used it could be risky for the child. But for average use (ie, a proper flat stroller, not a travel system, and actually holding the child when fussy rather than ignoring, etc) I agree with you.

[AntoninBeGonin]

Originally Posted by saraann

Wearing the baby makes getting things done around the house possible, while still meeting my baby's needs and it is much easier to manuever then a stroller.

Visualizing someone pushing a stroller around the house as they stack the dishwasher

~Nay

[The4OfUs]

Originally Posted by uptownzoo

Yes, I was mainstream. I was also head-over-heels in love with them, and bottom line, that's what I think matters.

I think this is very true - being head-over-heels, and the responding to their needs...both of which can be done in a 'mainstream' upbringing

Originally Posted by BelgianSheepDog

And no, peeing, eating, and breathing are not negotiable to me. I won't hold it until my husband gets home, I won't kill my back trying to potty with the ergo on, and I won't live off nuts and granola bars until she's 6. It's : that I feel gutsy putting my foot down about that.

Word.



My firstborn needed an AP guilt trip, too. He was happy as a clam in any number of 'containers', loved his little umbrella stroller; though he is a poster child for cosleeping, always needed me to sleep (until well over 2 yrs old), and still climbs into bed with us half the nights out of the week (and we it). My daughter, on the other hand, "puts the *attach* in attachment parenting" (a funny my mom made last time we were visiting them) . She LOVES her mama....and most of the time only mama will do when she's awake. But, she's happy to sleep on her own in her little sidecar, not touching me. . Yet another reason why I'm convinced that parenting *responsively* is at the heart of loving parenting - responding to the variable needs of individual children.

[siobhang]

Very interesting thread.

A couple of comments. The prevailing attititudes on MDC are defintely a lot stronger than I personally have - but that I am closer to the MDC approach than on other parenting boards. And frankly, I am glad to get a range of perspectives - I think reading more mainstream boards and hanging around parents IRL and then reading MDC helps me get a broad range of ideas and tools to use on parenting.

MDC has also challenged my thinking on several issues - but not really changed my mind on most of them - instead clarified my real beliefs. I actually am more authoritative/directive with my kids NOW than I was before reading GD boards. I think reading them, trying to put some of the ideas into practice, seeing what worked and didn't, and then determing that I needed to be stronger in my leadership of my kids than I feel the GD forum supports was right for us. What I took most out of the GD forum was the need to be thoughtful of our parenting method - that we are modelling behavior we want our children to follow. This alone has become a fundamental part of my parenting philosophy.

It is very hard to not become extreme on the internet. As others have said, and as my dh points out about all message boards (even software development boards, believe it or not), it is easy to keep raising the bar to exclude more and more people.

And the voices we hear most clearly are the extreme, judgemental ones. Unfortunately, the vast majority of posters may be very diplomatic or non-judgmental - but if I read 100 posts, I remember the 2 or 3 most extreme and insulting ones. Nature of the beast, unfortunately.

I came to MDC with too thin a skin. I stay now with a much thicker one. I refuse to participate in certain conversations. I learn a lot from others. I think that is the best that any of us can do, really.

Oh, and I do encourage everyone (and remind myself) to push back when we see any human being attacked or demeaned. Because, after all, if we shouldn't do it to our children, why on earth would it be okay to do it to another adult?

My 2 cents.

[UptownZoo]

Originally Posted by siobhang

Oh, and I do encourage everyone (and remind myself) to push back when we see any human being attacked or demeaned. Because, after all, if we shouldn't do it to our children, why on earth would it be okay to do it to another adult?

It breaks my heart when I see someone get trounced. Sometimes it's just plain bullying, and how many people ever had their mind's changed because they were bullied? It's so hurtful. And I always wonder something else, too: if you wouldn't say it IRL, why is it OK to say it on a message board? Because it still hurts when it comes through on the other end.

My youngest DS was HN to an indescribably degree. He cried all the time. I got it from every side -- mainstream folks were convinced that I was spoiling him by carrying/nursing him all the time, and AP folks were convinced that I somehow wasn't APing "right" because all the books say an APed baby doesn't cry, right? And people just pushed and shoved and judged and it was a nightmare. I was constantly defending myself, often pointing to my very well-adjusted older children as proof that I'm not a total incompetent! That experience taught me how very, very far a little support can go. Because honestly, even if some of the people who were so critical of me had some good ideas, I wouldn't know it, because I shut them off in a big hurry. How sad it that?

[Snowdrift]

Originally Posted by BelgianSheepDog

You'd almost think our society was founded on Calvinism. : :

[Snowdrift]

This response wold fit better on page one or two of this thread, but I didn't post then bc I wasn't in the mood, but my are are as follows on teh whole issue:

I must be much less sensitive about my parenting than oh, *everything* else. I just don't feel the condemnation. The only hints of acrimony I've felt have been from one or two posters here who were obviously trying to "out-AP" everyone else to the point of ludicrosity and self-condemnation. It is easy to ignore those. The other time was in an IRL group when I mentioned MDC and anoother woman said, *very* snippily that MDC is all about out-parenting, yadda yadda, and not to bother.

I found the suggestion that I was all about the "out-parenting" board to be hurtful.

But other than that, everyone I knwo within my local AP-ish community and the one I used to live in (and still hang out with when possible) is just kind and helpful. Never a hint that I'm a bad mom when I pass my baby around to others because I am tired of holding/wearing her. Never a thought of judgement about people who use baby buckets--just the occassional worried comment about a particular baby in a particular situtation and always with a "how could I have helped/I was worried so I did x to help" things like that. Maybe MI mamas are just more charitable and kind?

I dunno. I'm just not feeling the acrimony except in a very few cases, easily ignored.

[marybethorama]

Originally Posted by BelgianSheepDog

Of course. Because sexism and the patriarchal structures that uphold it is the water we swim in. We may congregate into different schools, but the water stays the same.

I agree

I once found an article discussing sexism in "alternative" culture. They were talking about modern day "hippies" (the word they used) and how women were being objectified and treated in a sexist manner. Just because people were outside the mainstream didn't mean they weren't living the same patriarchal, sexist values.

Also "crunchiness" does not equal liberal values. People with many different value systems can be "crunchy"

[shayinme]

Originally Posted by marybethorama

Also "crunchiness" does not equal liberal values. People with many different value systems can be "crunchy"

I really wish more people understood this, that crunchy does not mean liberal at all.

Shay

[North_Of_60]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

OTOH, maybe I'm just clueless. I'm not particularly crunchy, and have never used the terms "AP" or "NFL" to describe my approach to life and parenting...

I do what I think is best for me and my family, and it mostly falls more into AP than otherwise, but I'm not hung up on the label at all.

I couldn't read this part and not respond. I totally agree, and that is exactly, to the letter, how I feel as well.

I love MDC in that I can relate a lot more to the wisdom here then I can on "mainstream" boards. I also LOVE to learn more about AP, NFL, GD, etc then what I know from pretty mainstream upbringing, but it's not about following a set of rules, or being difficult for the sake of being difficult.

I didn't even know that what I was doing as a new mother even HAD a name, I just did what came naturally to me. It wasn't until I began "sticking out like a sore thumb" among other groups that I even began to seek out other mothers like me.. which led me to MDC.

Sometimes I feel like I fall into the "not crunchy enough for MDC" catagory. Some days that bothers me, and some days I don't care. If anything, being a mother has tought me more about following MY instincts and being true to myself then anything else I have ever done.

[witchbaby]

i constantly joke to my husband about "getting negative ap points" when i do something like put one of the kids in the stroller, give them junk food or happily leave them with their grandparents. what i do is best described as ap, but i do a lot of stuff that would generate a "can you believe this mother?!" post on mdc, as well.

[BelgianSheepDog]

Originally Posted by marybethorama

I agree

I once found an article discussing sexism in "alternative" culture. They were talking about modern day "hippies" (the word they used) and how women were being objectified and treated in a sexist manner. Just because people were outside the mainstream didn't mean they weren't living the same patriarchal, sexist values.

Also "crunchiness" does not equal liberal values. People with many different value systems can be "crunchy"

Yep. An interesting point to note also is that historically, the second wave of feminism originated from women disgruntled with sexism in the civil rights movement and the "student" movement which encompassed many of the folks we call the hippies. So in particular, just because a man is "crunchy" doesn't mean he's not going to expect you to wait on him hand and foot and embody his madonna/whore complex.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by BelgianSheepDog

So in particular, just because a man is "crunchy" doesn't mean he's not going to expect you to wait on him hand and foot and embody his madonna/whore complex.

Or vice versa. DH isn't particularly crunchy - probably even less so than I am. (He's willing to go along with me on a lot of things, though...and I think he kinda likes the cosleeping, even though it also drives him nuts.) But, he'd also never expect me to wait on him in any way and I think he'd be boggled by the entire madonna/whore thing. He sees me as a whole person, not a set of stereotypes.