or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Mom › Parenting › The Granola Extreme
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The Granola Extreme - Page 9

post #161 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by HerthElde View Post
Maybe MDC should have a subforum on effective communication in activism or something.
Totally OT, but this is a great idea!

I am the administrator of Norways first AP-messageboard. And we actually have a subforum where we can discuss, learn and talk about how to communicate Non Violent. As in, NVC NonViolentCommunication written by Marshall Rosenberg.

Maybe that would be possible here at MDC, too?


Ooh, and I totally agreee with your posts in this thread, by the way.
post #162 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greensleeves View Post
I have a question, though. Does it matter what a person's motivation is for doing all the AP/NFL stuff, or is it enough that they're even doing it?

I guess for some people, a huge part of the appeal of AP/NFL is that it's kind of 'edgy'. If it became mainstream, would it still appeal to them as much?

It seems like in many movements, there is a pride of ownership in those who were there 'first'. And they feel like everyone who comes after them is somehow not as authentic. KWIM?

Arrgh, I will try to come back tomorrow to form more coherent sentences after some sleep.
I actually think it's ALL about the motivation. AP is about being *attached* to your kids. If creating that bond and maintaining a connection throughout your child's life is the basic focus of your parenting, then you're AP, IMO.
*HOW* you maintain that bond will vary from child to child and from year to year. What works for DC1 may not work for DC2, what works at 1 year probably will not work at 13 or 25 or 40.

It's all about being motivated to maintain that connection and bond.

I think it gets tricky when you start mixing NFL & AP. Cloth diapering is not AP, organic lentils and soy milk are not AP, being "crunchy" does not equal being "attached". I come here mainly for the AP side of things. I'm comfortable with my semi-crunchy status and I'm not ashamed to say I occationally eat fast food & have no good veggie chili recipes & have used mainly sposies for the last 6 months. I'm not offended by the "Crunchier than thou" statements. Being more "crunchy" will not make me a better mom and "going through the AP motions" will not make me more attached.
post #163 of 327
I'd like to read this thread but it's too wide! Why is it doing that? :
I hate scrolling back and forth every two seconds.
post #164 of 327
I don't know why it's like that - it was doing the same thing to me earlier and then it "fixed" itself somehow.........
post #165 of 327
Thread Starter 
"What I see in this thread is that people want posters that happen to be at the "extreme" end of any topic and have the "audacity" to post about it should be quiet and go away. So you get rid of those people and start chipping away at the next layer. Soon you are on babycenter. While I do not think it is ever OK to come onto a thread and purposely make people feel bad, I do think that people who post on a NFL board should be aware that NFL topics will be discussed and that anyone coming on here stating that they do things that are not NFL/AP should expect to have that challenged. Like I love Taco Bell. I eat there up to once a week. I am happy with that decision and not looking to change it. But I am not going to come on here and expect everyone to pat me on the back and tell me how wonderful Taco Bell is when i know full well that it is not healthy, not natural, bad for the environment/workers/sprawl, etc...... I do not discuss it at all on the board because there is simply no reason to. It is not NFL."

See -- I disagree with this. I see alot of people on these boards doing "reality checks" -- looking at how other mothers manage their lives. If we don't share our "taco bell meals", it provides a distorted picture of ourselves and increases the heat on mothers who may be struggling in certain areas.
post #166 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by bczmama View Post
See -- I disagree with this. I see alot of people on these boards doing "reality checks" -- looking at how other mothers manage their lives. If we don't share our "taco bell meals", it provides a distorted picture of ourselves and increases the heat on mothers who may be struggling in certain areas.

I agree. Frankly, I like to hear about people who occationally eat fast food or love their baby swing or (gasp) question aspects of AP-a-la-Sears. I'm not at one extreme or the other. My life functions better with a balance of "super NFL" and "mainstream". It's actually good to hear that there are others who have found ways to pick and choose, too.
post #167 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamsmama View Post
I think it is incredibly unhealthy to consider yourself anything other than just a human being, because that is really all that we are and nothing else. Stop with the labels and pour that energy into taking care of yourself and your family instinctually. If we truly love isn't that enough?
Amen, sister.
post #168 of 327
Well labels are useful. I don't walk around calling my family an "AP family" but I did seek out a forum to express myself amongst like minded parents and, more importantly, learn from those people. That forum happens to have a NFL/AP label

The label doesn't define me but labels are useful tools on the internet. I understand the sentiment that getting caught up in labels without understanding what they are about or trying define yourself or others within one's narrow concept of what that label means but to declare that labels need to be thrown out isn't realistic or useful.

I am not interested in reading posts about babies being spanked and left to cry so I do look for the AP "label" on a site. Unfortunately, labels aren't doing much here at MDC anyway. Still have to read pro spanking/CIO posts :
post #169 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzharmony View Post
Unfortunately, labels aren't doing much here at MDC anyway. Still have to read pro spanking/CIO posts :
Well, if it makes you feel any better you do get the pleasure of seeing anybody who posts that way get an immediate slap upside the head, internet style.

Seriously, if pro-spanking/cio posts are your worst criticism of MDC you might want to try not being so critical about stuff. Because those two points of view are really not tolerated here.
post #170 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by chinaKat View Post
Well, if it makes you feel any better you do get the pleasure of seeing anybody who posts that way get an immediate slap upside the head, internet style.

Seriously, if pro-spanking/cio posts are your worst criticism of MDC you might want to try not being so critical about stuff. Because those two points of view are really not tolerated here.
I have seen a whole bunch of crap tolerated here in the name of being "non-judgmental" that never would have flown when I first joined 4yrs ago.
post #171 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper View Post
What I see in this thread is that people want posters that happen to be at the "extreme" end of any topic and have the "audacity" to post about it should be quiet and go away. So you get rid of those people and start chipping away at the next layer. Soon you are on babycenter. While I do not think it is ever OK to come onto a thread and purposely make people feel bad, I do think that people who post on a NFL board should be aware that NFL topics will be discussed and that anyone coming on here stating that they do things that are not NFL/AP should expect to have that challenged. Like I love Taco Bell. I eat there up to once a week. I am happy with that decision and not looking to change it. But I am not going to come on here and expect everyone to pat me on the back and tell me how wonderful Taco Bell is when i know full well that it is not healthy, not natural, bad for the environment/workers/sprawl, etc...... I do not discuss it at all on the board because there is simply no reason to. It is not NFL. So you like disposables/circ/CIO/Walmart......? Great. This is not the place to declare your love for that and expect pats on the back.
I think there are two issues here. First is the issue of "catching more flies with honey", and second is the issue of people respecting this community for what it is - AP/NFL.

On the first issue, I think people can be extreme in their views without being rude. Being belligerent and militant is not synonymous with being extreme, passionate, or fanatic. It's just plain rude. Period.

For example, I am VERY extreme about formula feeding and breastfeeding. I am low supply mom and worked my heiny off to be able to exclusively breastfeed my daughter. I pumped so much that at one point my hands cracked from washing pumps parts 10-12 times a day. So when someone gets on here and says they're working hard to pump and then I find out it's only 3 or 4 times a day, oh boy, I get steamed. HOWEVER, that does not give me permission to be rude, because I will not get my point across by making myself sound more committed to breastfeeding then the person who only wants to pump 4 times, not 12.

And on the second issue, I think there is a fine line in preserving this AP/NFL community and alienating people who are still walking the fence. While I whole heartedly agree that people should read the MDC mission statement before posting, I also think it is in extremely bad taste to lambaste someone for coming here to research about CIO, circ, cloth diapers, or vaccinating. You catch more flies with honey...

Having said that, it is REALLY frustrating when some people tend to perpetuate a non AP/NFL sentiment in a place that should uphold AP/NFL. At a certain point one must put their foot down and point up the NATURAL FAMILY LIVING banner to remind people why they are here.

I DO think there is a difference in finding your way, and simply flaunting what is not AP/NFL on an AP/NFL forum. To use the Taco Bell analogy, it would be the equivalent of someone coming here to genuinely inquire about how bad Taco Bell is, and someone else continually suggesting that others eat it because they do and they haven't keeled over yet.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think rudeness, belligerence, and snarkiness can or should be tolerated under the guise of being extreme or passionate.
post #172 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzharmony View Post
I have seen a whole bunch of crap tolerated here in the name of being "non-judgmental" that never would have flown when I first joined 4yrs ago.




-Angela
post #173 of 327
I admit, I have read only the last few posts here, so I hope I am getting the jist of things...

Something used to occasionally happen in my women's studies classes long ago. In the interest of being nonhierarchical and accepting, anyone could put forth an idea about one of our readings and it would be accepted. The amount of actual debate or constructive criticism would be approximately zero--unless someone unthinkingly put forth an idea that could be found sexist, or else an idea that was not politically correct. Then they'd get yelled at.

The problem here was not the PC thing, though that has its issues. What I really hated was the fact that you could say the dumbest, least-analyzed idea possible and nobody would really question you--because doing so was somehow oppressive. But this just meant that the level of discussion was incredibly bland and predictable. When you start accepting all points of view, simply out of some vague ideal usually expressed as "everyone has their opinion," then you just end up with something dull and flat and mediocre. MDC is mostly women, and women are famous for not actually arguing their points too much and, if they do, shutting down the minute someone disagrees. But I don't think this serves us very well.

I am actually all for MDC being fairly 'extreme' in its granola point of view. I really like that I find people here who are even more granola than I am--I learn new stuff all the time. I do not like the idea that we should become an all-inclusive place and water the whole thing down. MDC *IS* a granola extreme--and that's the way I like it. If you use 100% disposable diapers or eat at Taco Bell, that's fine, it's your life--but I don't think you should expect that people here are going to think that's normal or desirable. (I suppose you could get a charge out of being 'rebellious', though ...)

I think that if we let MDC become watered down, the super-granola people will leave and the site will become fairly mainstream. It will become mostly Whole Foods shoppers who are uncomfortable spanking, instead of the homesteaders with the acre-sized garden and the milk goats who do 'elimination communication' and are practicing Buddhists or geez, even polyamorous pagans. The site does serve a purpose in 'educating' those WF shoppers to a lifestyle even more extreme than the one they imagined they were living...but. There's a reason many hardcore granola types sort of drop out of society...and it's often because they are tired of 'educating' and want to just live.

Well. No one can accuse me of not being ready to make a speech about a thread I haven't even read!
post #174 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuller2 View Post
I am actually all for MDC being fairly 'extreme' in its granola point of view. I really like that I find people here who are even more granola than I am--I learn new stuff all the time. I do not like the idea that we should become an all-inclusive place and water the whole thing down. MDC *IS* a granola extreme--and that's the way I like it. If you use 100% disposable diapers or eat at Taco Bell, that's fine, it's your life--but I don't think you should expect that people here are going to think that's normal or desirable. (I suppose you could get a charge out of being 'rebellious', though ...)

I think that if we let MDC become watered down, the super-granola people will leave and the site will become fairly mainstream. It will become mostly Whole Foods shoppers who are uncomfortable spanking, instead of the homesteaders with the acre-sized garden and the milk goats who do 'elimination communication' and are practicing Buddhists or geez, even polyamorous pagans. The site does serve a purpose in 'educating' those WF shoppers to a lifestyle even more extreme than the one they imagined they were living...but. There's a reason many hardcore granola types sort of drop out of society...and it's often because they are tired of 'educating' and want to just live.
Interesting. The only problem with your logic is that in real life, the drop-out extremists are more likely to have consumed Taco Bell in the past week, year, or ten years than the less-extreme GD Whole Foodies. Because they have less money, and fewer pretensions. I have spent far more time living without electricity than most MDCers - and I also have eaten far more Taco Bell.

And drop-out extremists are least likely of all to do a checklist. What comes up again and again and again is the reality that doing a full checklist is a luxury. A few months ago there was a LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG thread over whether it was rude to refuse a piece of fruit at someone's house because it wasn't organic. Some people appear to have completely taken leave of the humane values that were supposed to drive this philosophy in the first place.

I believe it was BelgianSheepDog who recently said that she finds the whole idea of having a parenting "style" with a name to be silly and bourgeois. I'm tempted to look up the exact quote and make it my signature.

Just look at some of the input whenever class/welfare issues are discussed. There are A LOT of people on this site who have no idea how the other half lives, and we make a major mistake if we think that doesn't color our collective concepts of AP/NFL purity and what it takes to achieve it.

I also think that rigorously adhering to the whole checklist is a sign of lack of independent thought. Which is not to say that everyone who happens to do everything on the list lacks independent thought - but the pursuit of the list as such is frankly kind of sad.

I guess what I am inarticulately and somewhat ungraciously trying to say is that MDC's collective self-image as "crunchy" rings false for me because it doesn't seem to have that much in common with the concept of the countercultural lifestyle and aesthetic I would previously have designated as "crunchy granola" before discovering MDC. A large part of that lifestyle is individualism and nonconformity, not only from the "mainstream" rules but from the whole idea of living by a rulebook, in general. I see many, many references to lifestyle choices that lie beyond the purview of MDC's specific AP/NFL obsession that would instantly disqualify someone from being "crunchy" in my perception if I met them in real life. That's not a judgment, it's just reality. It partly refers to me; I am not the epitome of countercultural lifestyle, myself. But I have not allowed MDC groupthink to colonize my lifestyle concepts. Anyone who thinks you can tell how "granola" someone is by enumerating from a finite list of specific practices doesn't know what "granola" means.

By strict MDC logic, the trim blonde McMansion-dweller who spends thousands on hyena fluff is crunchier than the tattooed inner-city punk mama who uses sposies because she has neither a washing machine nor a car to get to the laundromat. (Or make up whatever example you want.) It's patently absurd.

IOW, it's already mostly WF shoppers who feel uncomfortable spanking, and the crunchier-than-thou dynamic doesn't help matters. The rest of our lives are just too messy.

Another thought: in any given MDC discussion, a huge red flag goes up for me when someone starts saying "Noone can make you feel guilty" in defense of something they or others have said to...well....make people feel guilty. I think "noone can make you feel guilty" is the MDC equivalent of Godwin's Law! Much of what I see on this thread is the same idea generalized to the site as a whole.

Beware of the mentality that only people with everything checked off the list fully belong here and the rest of us should just be sitting at their feet. Life is full of ambiguity. This is a discussion site. If the only thing that matters is either/or determinations with regard to a few specific practices, what is there to discuss?
post #175 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalateaDunkel View Post
Another thought: in any given MDC discussion, a huge red flag goes up for me when someone starts saying "Noone can make you feel guilty" in defense of something they or others have said to...well....make people feel guilty. I think "noone can make you feel guilty" is the MDC equivalent of Godwin's Law! Much of what I see on this thread is the same idea generalized to the site as a whole.
Yes. The whole "No one else can make you feel guilty" routine is functionally equivalent to, "I can trash you as much as I like, and if it hurts you, it's your own damn fault."
post #176 of 327
Working through this thread. It's hard to know who's extreme really, imo, b/c a poster who may be extreme in one area might not be as extreme in another area. It's easy to assume that those who are the resident experts in diapermaking 101 are also the resident experts in gardening, soap making, gentle discipline, whatevering. I learn a lot from people here, "extreme" or not, but I only find it holier than though when the tone is condescending and tends to assume the worst on behalf of the poster. I see it enough, but I think it's still in the minority. It's why I mostly stay out of certain forums, actually.

I think the ideas behind NFL are wonderful and feminist and earth friendly, and sometimes I think they go so far full circle that they wind up being even more sexist than mainstream parenting expectations. I think it should be about common sense, responding to your kids, and respect for little ones- not so much mommy martyrdom. There's always room for improvement for me I think, but there is just no way I could do it ALL right now in my life- and it's not helping anyone when women feel like they have to be complete, self-sacrificing, one-woman shows, producing everything their family needs and being the epitome of a gentle spirit 100% of the time. I love the tenets of AP, but I don't think they every really existed or exist outside of the vacuum of patriarchy in any form, so it's not really surprising that there are the same pressures and endless rounds of guilt for moms, even if they are doing some great things for themselves and their family (because you could always do more...)
post #177 of 327
On the "noone can make you feel guilty" sentiment, I have seen many people trashed after just mentioning gently the two words cloth diapers in another's disposable diaper thread. I haven't seen much trashing of the "mainstream" thinkers here but I have seen a lot of vicious bashing of the poor mother who comes here to express her sadness at the baby being left to cry upstairs alone at the dinner party she attended the night before. Or how dare someone suggest that a toddler shouldn't live on coke and muffins (remember the infamous pink muffin thread) I mean really. I have felt plenty of guilt myself and I know it has to do with my own standards which are very reasonable and still sometimes not always attainable. Guilt is not a four letter word. I don't even agree with the many who say guilt is a useless emotion
post #178 of 327
Actually I don't think the coke/muffin thing or similar threads have anything to do with nfl/ap or people defending the practice or people here sliding into the babycenter.com. I think it has to do with the separate issue of mothers (or parents) being judged relentlessly, in all circles, and some of us knowing how hard it is to be perfectly nfl/ap, and how much we get judged for being nfl/ap. You can't always tell what's going on by a two minute observation in the park.
post #179 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzharmony View Post
Guilt is not a four letter word. I don't even agree with the many who say guilt is a useless emotion
No emotion is useless. They all point to areas of ourselves that need attention and self love.
post #180 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazelnut View Post
You can't always tell what's going on by a two minute observation in the park.
Very true but I do see moms in the park dole out coca-cola to their 2 years olds and, well, it DOES make me shudder. I am sorry, call me judgmental if you want, but HOW can someone give their toddler that stuff? I can understand offering formula to a newborn better than I can understand giving coke to a 2 year old. And least with the formula you have the "well, it's my body and I don't feel like breastfeeding" argument. I can't say I understand that sentiment but I do understand the reasoning. I cannot understand giving cocacola to a 2-year old.

But I also can see how, apart from the food one gives to a child or maybe seeing a parent physically harm her child, it is difficult to tell what is going on by seeing 2-minute scenes in the park.

I also agree with a previous poster that when we are told not to voice our opinions for fear of judging, in the end, noone expresses any negative opinion at all and anything goes. Once at a playgroup where mothers in charge of the snack were specifically told to please bring fruit. I saw potato chips sitting on the table for all children to take. I nearly lost it. I actually asked out loud and in a voice that manifested my dismay, WHO BROUGHT POTATO CHIPS? At which point this very soft voice said, "Oh, I did. I'm sorry. I didn't realise that anyone would mind and could not think of what else to bring". At which point I apologised for sounding so harsh and explained that I was, um, rather particular about what DD ate.

But you see, in the end, it was not she who was in the wrong for bringing chips, it was I who was "too fussy".
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Parenting
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Mom › Parenting › The Granola Extreme