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The Granola Extreme - Page 10

post #181 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalateaDunkel View Post

By strict MDC logic, the trim blonde McMansion-dweller who spends thousands on hyena fluff is crunchier than the tattooed inner-city punk mama who uses sposies because she has neither a washing machine nor a car to get to the laundromat. (Or make up whatever example you want.) It's patently absurd.
I don't get that feeling at all. Not in the least. There have been a few displays of one up manship, but generally speaking, I don't think the vast majority of MDC members rely on a checklist to determine who is the crunchiest. At least I would hope not. I'm just proud of the things I do because I love doing them, and if there ever was a place to "brag" about what normally makes me a wacko in real life, I'd hope MDC was that place.
post #182 of 327

I Just Have To Say I Love This Post!

I agree with so many points you've made.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GalateaDunkel View Post
Interesting. The only problem with your logic is that in real life, the drop-out extremists are more likely to have consumed Taco Bell in the past week, year, or ten years than the less-extreme GD Whole Foodies. Because they have less money, and fewer pretensions. I have spent far more time living without electricity than most MDCers - and I also have eaten far more Taco Bell.

And drop-out extremists are least likely of all to do a checklist. What comes up again and again and again is the reality that doing a full checklist is a luxury. A few months ago there was a LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG thread over whether it was rude to refuse a piece of fruit at someone's house because it wasn't organic. Some people appear to have completely taken leave of the humane values that were supposed to drive this philosophy in the first place.

I believe it was BelgianSheepDog who recently said that she finds the whole idea of having a parenting "style" with a name to be silly and bourgeois. I'm tempted to look up the exact quote and make it my signature.

Just look at some of the input whenever class/welfare issues are discussed. There are A LOT of people on this site who have no idea how the other half lives, and we make a major mistake if we think that doesn't color our collective concepts of AP/NFL purity and what it takes to achieve it.

I also think that rigorously adhering to the whole checklist is a sign of lack of independent thought. Which is not to say that everyone who happens to do everything on the list lacks independent thought - but the pursuit of the list as such is frankly kind of sad.

I guess what I am inarticulately and somewhat ungraciously trying to say is that MDC's collective self-image as "crunchy" rings false for me because it doesn't seem to have that much in common with the concept of the countercultural lifestyle and aesthetic I would previously have designated as "crunchy granola" before discovering MDC. A large part of that lifestyle is individualism and nonconformity, not only from the "mainstream" rules but from the whole idea of living by a rulebook, in general. I see many, many references to lifestyle choices that lie beyond the purview of MDC's specific AP/NFL obsession that would instantly disqualify someone from being "crunchy" in my perception if I met them in real life. That's not a judgment, it's just reality. It partly refers to me; I am not the epitome of countercultural lifestyle, myself. But I have not allowed MDC groupthink to colonize my lifestyle concepts. Anyone who thinks you can tell how "granola" someone is by enumerating from a finite list of specific practices doesn't know what "granola" means.

By strict MDC logic, the trim blonde McMansion-dweller who spends thousands on hyena fluff is crunchier than the tattooed inner-city punk mama who uses sposies because she has neither a washing machine nor a car to get to the laundromat. (Or make up whatever example you want.) It's patently absurd.

IOW, it's already mostly WF shoppers who feel uncomfortable spanking, and the crunchier-than-thou dynamic doesn't help matters. The rest of our lives are just too messy.

Another thought: in any given MDC discussion, a huge red flag goes up for me when someone starts saying "Noone can make you feel guilty" in defense of something they or others have said to...well....make people feel guilty. I think "noone can make you feel guilty" is the MDC equivalent of Godwin's Law! Much of what I see on this thread is the same idea generalized to the site as a whole.

Beware of the mentality that only people with everything checked off the list fully belong here and the rest of us should just be sitting at their feet. Life is full of ambiguity. This is a discussion site. If the only thing that matters is either/or determinations with regard to a few specific practices, what is there to discuss?
post #183 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivka5 View Post
Yes. The whole "No one else can make you feel guilty" routine is functionally equivalent to, "I can trash you as much as I like, and if it hurts you, it's your own damn fault."
Except that in this particular case, I was stating it about guilt, not hurt . . . and also with a mind to a conversation that goes more like this:

Person A: "Meat chickens, if allowed to reach full size, would collapse under their own weight"
Person B: "How dare you say chicken is bad for me, I can't stop buying chicken, I can't afford lentils, don't make me feel guilty!"

THAT is the reality on MDC. I do understand what you're saying and the types of situations where people expect others to not have any feelings, but I don't see those convos very often.
post #184 of 327
OT But....Someone was defending giving Coke to a 2 year old?!?!

Wow! I try my darndest not to judge, but I am definitely not okay with that!
post #185 of 327
I inwardly go ballistic over the pre-K snacks that other parents bring (sun chips, hawaiian punch, CHEETOHS, krispe kreme, no joke). I don't think I'm too fussy or or judgmental for thinking those snacks suck, complaining to the teacher, and being disappointed that they aren't following the guidelines. But if I came here and was like "what crappy parents" I think it's a different ball game. There are so many threads here where it starts "this mom in target was so evil to her kid" and maybe she was , but yk, some really gd moms have yelled at their kids in public, and you just never know what's going on behind the scenes. Not that that excuses the poor parenting, but it seems like there is more a focuxs on the parent being bad than the behavior being really repugnant.

By strict MDC logic, the trim blonde McMansion-dweller who spends thousands on hyena fluff is crunchier than the tattooed inner-city punk mama who uses sposies because she has neither a washing machine nor a car to get to the laundromat. (Or make up whatever example you want.) It's patently absurd.


I get that you're just making up a random example/ silly composite, but I don't see how somehow being blonde and trim and wealthy is alignment with being a mcmansion dweller who is only crunchy in the expensive, whole foods way. Not trying to be nitpicky, but I see that a lot here, like it's bad to be conventional in some harmless ways. Anyway, I agree about the checklist thing. When I first had my baby, honestly, I agreed with most AP stuff (natural birth, bf'ing, co-sleeping) and yet I shunned the term b/c it sounded cult-like to me. I don't know, as a new parent it just struck me as odd.
post #186 of 327
I think it's human nature to do this. I see it in EVERY subculture I've ever hung around. Crunchier than thou, harder-core-than-thou (respect to DK right there ^_~), more-traumatized-than-thou...you name it. Human egos inspire pissing contests.

For some people, it's a desperate need to prove themselves, to themselves. Sometimes they want to prove themselves to others. Sometimes it's just something to do, something to put energy into. And sometimes people recognize it for what it is, and get on with their lives without giving a rat's patootie what other people think. I've always known I could never win in a game of who's-the-most-(insert ANYTHING here), so I've never tried.
post #187 of 327
Am I alone in thinking that the problem is not in the content, but in the delivery?

I mean, really. I'm an unusual person with an unusual lifestyle. Most of us here are like that. I don't think most of us are scared of stuff that's to the left of center. It's when people come after me, jumping down my throat, telling me all that I've done wrong and all that I must do right that I get skeeved.

OTOH, when someone posts something to me like, "Well, when my child had such and such a similar problem, we did x y and z, and it worked great. Here's where I got the information; here's how we decided." I mean, that's entirely different. Then, even if I look at how you handled it and think that it's not for us at all, I'm armed with new information and I haven't been attacked.

I don't think we're "watering down" the primary focus of MDC by having a little human compassion and flexibility, and by remembering that we're all in charge of our own lives!
post #188 of 327
[QUOTE=Hazelnut;7481323] Not trying to be nitpicky, but I see that a lot here, like it's bad to be conventional in some harmless ways. QUOTE]

Interesting thread and I like this poster's point. On the surface, I would think MDC and those folks drawn to it, would be the least judgemental type of mama. Interestingly, I often notice the opposite. I wonder...if people made assumptions about me based on how I look, where I live and the cars I drive, they would be very, very wrong.

A few years back, we had new neighbors move in next door. They saw a young couple, neighborhood, etc... We do have corporate-type jobs so we HAVE to dress a certain way during the week. (I quit mine to go part-time and SAH) They told us, they thought "ugh...there's some right-wing, conservative, yuppie heads." BTW, they are a married gay couple who are, by far, the best neighbors we've ever had. Later, they learned how wrong their first impressions (before meeting and talking) were.

Mostly, I feel on an island. The moms I'm around are mainstream extreme. A co-worker was telling another how good liquid soap was for washing out mouths. (It took every bit of my inner-strength and maturity not to comment) But, I don't like to be judged for my parenting choices...so who am I to tell them anything?

PS...I've seen a few MDC members on the "mainstream" boards, preaching their views and beliefs ad nauseum. I'm not sure why some feel the need to be the chosen converter of all "mainstream" parenting ideals. If you want to CIO, spank and give formula...be my guest. Just don't bring it to MDC. And, the opposite is true. The babycenter folks probably aren't interested in GD, cloth diapers and non-vaxing. That's why we live in America, we can choose.

Soapbox over.
post #189 of 327
No uptownzoo, that's what I was trying to say. I see that a lot, esp. in the gd forum, which was mentioned. It's not always just "well you could try this" but it's sometimes couched in really condescending language that is making a lot of assumptions about the poster. Although, I agree with whoever said that most posts don't do this, but the few that do really stick out. It's almost like you're assumed to be very mainstream (in the not so good sense) unless you make 100 disclaimers to the contrary.
post #190 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hazelnut View Post
I get that you're just making up a random example/ silly composite, but I don't see how somehow being blonde and trim and wealthy is alignment with being a mcmansion dweller who is only crunchy in the expensive, whole foods way. Not trying to be nitpicky, but I see that a lot here, like it's bad to be conventional in some harmless ways.
Well what I was more getting at is that MDC defines "crunchy" in a way that could perfectly fit people that nobody would ever call "crunchy granola" (regardless of if they think that's good, bad, or neutral) if they met them in real life. Which again, is not a judgment, but does indicate a certain departure from RL cultural reality. There have been threads where moms have gotten piled on for not doing everything even when it was apparent that socioeconomic circumstances were a factor. And don't think for a minute that the "perfect" moms I see at Whole Foods (and whom I never see at our local organic coop) never join in on that. I have no way of knowing exactly how much of the NFL trend is spoiled American "nothing but the best for my kids" mentality, but I'm sure it's more than zero. A lot more than zero.

And yes, some of us do think that deliberately embodying mainstream feminine aesthetics is undesireable. But lately it seems like there's no end of "OF COURSE I never leave the house without full face makeup!!!!!!!!!!" If you can't get away from such expectations on a site that never shuts up about how danged "crunchy" it is, where can you? Nowhere I guess.:

Quote:
Originally Posted by devster4fun
've seen a few MDC members on the "mainstream" boards, preaching their views and beliefs ad nauseum. I'm not sure why some feel the need to be the chosen converter of all "mainstream" parenting ideals. If you want to CIO, spank and give formula...be my guest. Just don't bring it to MDC. And, the opposite is true. The babycenter folks probably aren't interested in GD, cloth diapers and non-vaxing.
You know, I recently checked out some of these "mainstream" places for the first time and was surprised, although I shouldn't have been. Those sites are not dedicated to CIO and formula the same way MDC is to AP, and it is really an unfair characterization. I saw a lot of AP discussion when I looked over there. Probably made by people who understand that in order to do something it's not necessary to have an attitude of elite purism about the fact that you do it.
post #191 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by devster4fun View Post

PS...I've seen a few MDC members on the "mainstream" boards, preaching their views and beliefs ad nauseum. I'm not sure why some feel the need to be the chosen converter of all "mainstream" parenting ideals
In my experience, simply suggesting what has worked for me, or stating my opinion IS taken for trying to convert people. When I respond to "trouble with breastfeeding threads" my suggestions on how to make it successful are seen as formula bashing, 'cause I mean heaven forbid you work hard to avoid it. By being determined not to do something you are automatically seen as "anti [insert parenting choice here]".

And THAT is why I no longer frequent "mainstream" boards. Or even voice my opinion in real life for that matter. I can't innocently say that my daughter is breastfed and that we don't use formula without coming across as anti formula. It gets old.

At a recent gymboree class we were all talking about different brands of clothes and how some fit differently in the waist and how it's different from girls clothes to boys clothes. I made the innocent comment about my daughters cloth diapers sometimes making it hard to find pants that fit without being too long to make up for room in the butt. I could see about 3 different women all start squirming at the mention of cloth diapers, and before I knew it the conversation morphed into the million reasons why these women choice not to (or rather "couldn't") cloth diaper. WTF?

I don't squirm or get uncomfortable when there is a conversation about what brand of sposies is best, or about what brand of formula is best, and I think that's because I'm comfortable in my parenting choices. When people come across as preachy, judgmental, and converting I think that half time it's because the other party is NOT comfortable in their decisions.
post #192 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalateaDunkel View Post
Those sites are not dedicated to CIO and formula the same way MDC is to AP, and it is really an unfair characterization.
Yes, it was a sweeping generalization. I think it does depend on the site. I've actually never been to the one I mentioned in a previous post. The mainstream site I DO go to, you're correct, is not "dedicated" to anything really. I suppose that's my issue. (Trust me, I'm a walking contradiction and dichotomy ) They accept discussions of just about everything...which is how I got my first exposure to some of the AP/NFL ideals. So, the good side is, I found MDC and a general way of parenting that I truly believe is best for my family. (plus a subscription to Mothering from a friend) The not-so-good side, if say, circ is regularly discussed as a good idea and the norm...doesn't it get harder and harder to convince the "mainstream" that's it's just not necessary?

Sorry, it's hard to explain myself with typing...
post #193 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by GalateaDunkel View Post
Those sites are not dedicated to CIO and formula the same way MDC is to AP, and it is really an unfair characterization. I saw a lot of AP discussion when I looked over there. Probably made by people who understand that in order to do something it's not necessary to have an attitude of elite purism about the fact that you do it.
Exactly. I HAVE seen forums (or threads) specifically dedicated to sleep training, and I stay out of them for the same reason I would hope that CIO supporters would stay out of our night time parenting forum. However, I got SO SICK of being the odd ball fanatic converter preachy person on the one mainstream board I was a member of after every "help me with breastfeeding" thread turned into a discussion about people defending their need for formula. And heaven forbid I post a link.
post #194 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by North_Of_60 View Post
At a recent gymboree class we were all talking about different brands of clothes and how some fit differently in the waist and how it's different from girls clothes to boys clothes. I made the innocent comment about my daughters cloth diapers sometimes making it hard to find pants that fit without being too long to make up for room in the butt. I could see about 3 different women all start squirming at the mention of cloth diapers, and before I knew it the conversation morphed into the million reasons why these women choice not to (or rather "couldn't") cloth diaper. WTF?
Yikes...how would they know they couldn't CD, if they've not tried??

I've had countless similar experiences around co-sleeping. One lady told me I was going to wake up with a dead baby. Oh great...thanks so much for the help.

Like you, to some extent...I've given up the "fight."
post #195 of 327
Whenever I read the "no one can make you feel guilty" line, I always assume the writer has inserted a silent "despite me trying hard to make you, darn you" afterwards. : )

I keep coming back to the golden rule. Passion and knowledge about a subject is wonderful - it is why I post here. I love hearing about alternative lifestyles that I most likely will never have nor want.

But we need to treat each other (and I include all the "mamas who feed their 8 month olds coke and cheese puffs" in that definition of other) the way we'd wish to be treated - we all know what it is like to have both your decisions and your moments of weakness thrown back against you in judgement.

My rule is this: if I wouldn't treat my child with disrespect, judgement and shame, what would give me the right to treat another adult, another mother that way? Even if she is not actually present on the group?

I think it is very easy to take the basic anxiety and insecurity we feel at being a parent and channel it into vitriol and antagonism towards others who are not like us, as a way to prove to ourselves that we are doing okay. As mothers, we are often damned if we do and damned if we don't. The stress and frustration we feel by trying to navigate rather tight boundaries of "acceptable" mothering sometimes leads us to lash out at others who are pushing against those boundaries. The only difference on MDC is that our boundaries are different than "mainstream" groups - who, btw, are sometimes more tolerant of reality and practicality than some of the more militant NFL/AP groups.

Fundamentally, when I am not feeling dispirited by the negativity on MDC, I find this place fascinating. I love the strong personalities and willingness to question assumptions. I love how women have no fear of having their voices heard and will not back down when confronted. And I love the passion.

However, with that strength and passion comes responsibility to ourselves and others. It isn't easy and it won't be fixed by a magic bullet. It requires ongoing vigilance by all of us and committment to a higher value of love and compassion.

My 2 cents.

Siobhan
post #196 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by devster4fun View Post
Yikes...how would they know they couldn't CD, if they've not tried??
I have no idea. But the one thing I do know is, is that if I'd said "I never thought I could keep up with the laundry either, but I've found that doing 'x, y, z' makes it so much easier" it would have been taken as me trying to convert them. So I basically just sat there and listened to them all bash cloth diapers. One of them even said "I have better things to do then spend my day scrubbing shitty under pants, like play with my son." Great, so I'm basically ignoring my daughter so I can wash diapers all day. No matter what I would have said, it wouldn't have made a difference.

Same thing goes on mainstream boards, or in real life. Even with the complete absence of rudeness, I have found a lot of people to be unnecessarily guilty of one thing or another (CIO, formula, bucket seats, pacifiers, you name it). There is truth to "no one can make you feel guilty but yourself". I know from personal experience. I am extremely guilty of a lot of things, and not because I can do better, but because I know better would be best for my daughter but I am physically unable to go through it. Like baby wearing. I get pangs of guilt when I hear mothers say they don't use strollers. It was not their intention to make me feel guilty, it just truly IS my own issue.
post #197 of 327
It's so funny you guys have this thread going...I just left the babycenter group because it was getting way to mainstream for me....every day there was a post from a mainstream mom wanting to be reassured she was AP enough to be on that board...
I just wanted to be someplace where there were some EXTREME AP mammas who I could look up to as the GODDESSES they are and have them make me question things I do to see if they can be improved! I'm secure enough in what I'm doing to not worry about whether or not I'm "AP ENOUGH" or granola enough...personally I like being made to think. And sometimes it makes me feel better about the "non-granola" choices I make because I'm forced to think them through.
Anyway, interesting thread! Long live the Granola Queens!
peace,
robyn
post #198 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by North_Of_60 View Post
Great, so I'm basically ignoring my daughter so I can wash diapers all day. No matter what I would have said, it wouldn't have made a difference.
OMG...too, too funny. I LOL'd!! Only because I hear that crap all the time.


I work 19 hours a week and my mom watches DD during those hours. I have co-workers who work full-time and constantly say things like this. I was really tired one day at a meeting. I told them I had been up every hour, all night, responding to her cries. Their answer...well that's great you have so much EXTRA time to do that. OR, as long as that's what makes you happy. Um, thanks for the support ladies. (BTW one of them has twins who have been in full-time daycare since 6 weeks. Trust me, only because they have to afford their 750K house and Ann Taylor suits) Do I make comments to her about daycare? Never!

Wow...I'm on a super-soapbox today. Sorry. DD is SLEEPING ALL NIGHT and I feel like I have super powers from all the rest
post #199 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by North_Of_60 View Post
One of them even said "I have better things to do then spend my day scrubbing shitty under pants, like play with my son."
How very...bizarre. I've been using cloth diapers since I had ds1 in 1993. I have never once "scrubbed" shitty underpants. I've also never "spent my day" doing diapers. That's one of the most off-the-wall comments on cloth diapering that I've ever heard - and I've heard plenty.
post #200 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm Bride View Post
How very...bizarre. I've been using cloth diapers since I had ds1 in 1993. I have never once "scrubbed" shitty underpants. I've also never "spent my day" doing diapers. That's one of the most off-the-wall comments on cloth diapering that I've ever heard - and I've heard plenty.
I agree, but like I said above, I didn't say anything because I no doubt would have come across as the pushy preachy cloth diaper lady. I've actually had a lot of people think that washing cloth dipes is this all consuming process, but the implication that you won't have time to play with your children because your days will be spent washing diapers was a new one for me too.
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