The Granola Extreme - Page 2

[CherryBomb]

Originally Posted by asherah

OTOH, I have RARELY seen mainstream mamas do that.

Really? And you're on livejournal?! I see mainstream mamas do it all the time, IRL and online, it's just about different things. "She's disgusting for breastfeeding, I can't believe she doesn't spank her kids, they're such brats, she's such a freak for picking her baby up when he cries, did you know that weirdo didn't circumsize her son, etc etc"

[asherah]

Originally Posted by CherryBomb

Really? And you're on livejournal?! I see mainstream mamas do it all the time, IRL and online, it's just about different things. "She's disgusting for breastfeeding, I can't believe she doesn't spank her kids, they're such brats, she's such a freak for picking her baby up when he cries, did you know that weirdo didn't circumsize her son, etc etc"

I write poetry and essays on livejournal. I read about poetry and spirituality and tattoos there. I don't look at parenting stuff there.

But again, I never said that there aren't mean and nasty mainstreamers who make mean and nasty comments.

I am talking about a certain "culture" of judgment and mommy-martyrdom, that no, I don't see among mainstreamers. Telling me about rude comments from individuals doesn't negate that opinion.

[maybebaby]

I think there's a big difference in how women lived in the 50's and how "granola" moms do things now though. Back then, it was assumed that these jobs were "women's work", women were expected to be housewives and stay at home moms. Now, we're *choosing* to do those things. Choice is a huge factor. I don't see being granola as being less feminist; we just have *choice* about how we spend our time now. A feminist can choose to be a wohm or a sahm now, with gratitude to those women who blazed the trails for us in the past decades. As long as we all support other women making their own choice then it's all going to work out just fine. But judgement takes place on both sides, whether we want to admit it or not. There will always be career women who say we sahm's aren't feminist enough and there will always be sahm's who say wohm's arent as committed to their families.

And I totally don't believe we embrace difficulty for the sake of difficulty. That's nutty! There are reasons why we do things we do, and it's not just because it's harder. That would be crazy. We research and soul search and do what's right for our families. Sure, there are times we get upset when we feel women make decisions based on no more than just "following the herd", but you know maybe that stems from some feminist beliefs; we care so much that women avail themselves of information and the choices out there because in the past some of those choices weren't ours to make.

[nancy926]

I'm not in a frame of mind to wax philosophical...

But it's not just women who need to be feminists if we're going to change the way people think. Men need to be feminists too.

AND...part of being a feminist (IMHO) is seeing men as capable parents who can make their own decisions. Feminism is not just about women getting jobs and being paid equally.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by asherah

But I don't see the whole "we define ourselves by judging and lambasting straw women" culture I see in ap/nfl circles. I just don't. Mainstreamers don't DEFINE themselves that way. They don't have a culture of "more mainstream than thou."

I don't see a culture of "more mainstream than thou", because none of the mainstream parents I know define themselves as mainstream. But, I certainly see a culture of "my kids are the best behaved", "my kids follow order" or even "my kids have more toys", and I think that's all part of the same phenomenon. It's easier to peg with the AP/NFL crowd, because we have a convenient label, and at least a rough set of criteria in order to "qualify".

I don't think AP/NFL parents are any different in this respect than mainstream parents. We just have handier labels on our actions.

OTOH, maybe I'm just clueless. I'm not particularly crunchy, and have never used the terms "AP" or "NFL" to describe my approach to life and parenting. I don't think I've adopted any label for myself or my beliefs or tasts since I shucked "metalhead" in the late 80s. I do what I think is best for me and my family, and it mostly falls more into AP than otherwise, but I'm not hung up on the label at all. And, aside from the local MDC tribe, I don't think I know a single parent who qualifies as anything but "mainstream" (most of them are a fairly vicious backbiting lot, too).

[MomInFlux]

Originally Posted by nancy926

But it's not just women who need to be feminists if we're going to change the way people think. Men need to be feminists too.

AND...part of being a feminist (IMHO) is seeing men as capable parents who can make their own decisions. Feminism is not just about women getting jobs and being paid equally.

Yep, yep, yep. I'm interested in this conversation, but I'm not sure I'm in for the long haul. I just can't relate to it.

I have a wonderful DH, who joyfully practices AP, and is a SAHD, and whom I would consider a feminist. He's also very crunchy . At home, we're all about AP/NFL: homebirth, EFB, baby wearing, no vaxing, no circ, real food, sleep sharing, GD, homeschool, yadda-yadda-yadda. We don't do those things because we're striving to be "more granola" than our neighbors. We do these things because we think they're the right thing to do, and we LIKE doing them.

Yet, we're also outwardly mainstream. We've made the decision together that it makes more sense for our family that I work FT, and he supports that decision 100%. I work as an environmental consultant, and I look corporate. You would really have to talk with us for a nice long time to discern our lifestyle choices.

If people are the type to be competitive about their lifestyle choices, I think they're going to be competitive regardless of which direction they've gone in: granola or mainstream. And when people put dogma (of whichever stripe) ahead of making rational decisions, there will be issues. Are people really so weak-willed that they'll make decisions for their family based on some granola code of honor rather than what's right for their family?

[Snowdrift]

Can we cut out the criticisms to UC-ers? They could be very hurtful. Birth is as safe as life gets, but not completely safe. No matter where it happens or who is there.

[witchbaby]

i see entirely what you're saying, but i think it's more of a mother thing than purely and ap/nfl thing. it is very much the mommy wars in progress, it just depends on which side you're warring with. there are "i saw a mom at the mall doing xyz" threads here, posts about mothers breastfeeding "kids who can walk and talk!" on other boards. it seems to me, once we get bored with attacking the other side, we turn on each other.

[NYCVeg]

Originally Posted by SquishyKitty

I've noticed that a lot, that unless it's so hard, so sacrificial that you can martyr yourself over it, you're just not crunchy enough. I don't understand that thinking. I thought NFL was supposed to be about living simplier and easier, not doing the hardest possible thing because it's more natural than your neighbor.

I do see this at times. I find it particularly true in terms of bfing. I have seen this attitude that, no matter what bfing problems you have, if you're not willing to suffer years and years of physical pain, exhaustion, PPD, whatever to breastfeed, you're just not doing a good enough job. I had extreme bfing problems--severe ppd, 8+ weeks of severe pain. I was not a good mother to my dd. She still has some residual problems b/c of it (refusal to latch onto the breast herself, even at nearly 9 months, b/c latching on was so traumatic at the beginning). I was too ashamed to post on MDC that I was thinking of quitting bfing. I was afraid that people would jump all over me--as I had seen them jump all over others who weren't willing to "sacrifice" themselves. Instead, I emailed some mamas from my DDC privately, and they got me through (well, therapy for PPD helped too). I am still EBF. But if I had not been able to correct it when I did, the toll it would have taken on me and my daughter would have been too great. And still I think a lot of women in the NFL community would have condemned me.

Originally Posted by asherah

That said..

OTOH, I have RARELY seen mainstream mamas do that. Is that inherently part of ap/nfl? Absolutely not. But somehow, ap/nfl circles do seem to attract some women who really really need to compare themselves to others, and who are really really invested in setting up straw-women bad mommies to make themselves feel superior and righteous. I am not sure what is behind that, but I hear it and see it much more among women who describe themselves as ap/nfl.

I do think mainstream mamas do this, but I also think that NFL mamas might sometimes seem defensive b/c, well, many of us spend so much time defending our decision to the mainstream.

[chinaKat]

I'm glad this topic got picked up from the other thread, I thought it was interesting.

I fully agree that there is a lot of "AP-er than thou" attitude in so-called AP communities -- be they online or in real life.

The problem I see is that an unreachable standard is being set here -- much like that of the woman who feels she "must" WOH or SAHM and clean the house and make fabulous meals and provide amazingly enriching activities for her kids etc. etc. etc. in order to be the "right" kind of mom. NOBODY can meet this super-standard and the woman inevitably feels like a failure.

This pattern is also established with the mega AP lifestyle. I know this, because of the kind of posts I see here all the time. Mamas worry that if their baby cries for three minutes, EVER, that the child will suffer horrible psychological damage. They ask pleadingly if it's "okay" that their kid accidentally saw half an episode of Mr. Rogers once, or if the baby sits in a bouncy seat while the mom takes a five minute shower. They write of the angst they suffer for leaving their child in the care of their husbands for an hour, for the first time, when the child is over three years old.

Again and again I see mamas posting with guilt -- crushing guilt -- about not meeting some sort of AP super standard at ALL TIMES. And attempting to meet most of these standards entails this huge, astonishing self-sacrifice on the mother's part.

When did AP go from "hold your child, be there for him" to "the mother is no longer a person with needs and desires", anyway? When a mom feels like crap b/c she needs to take a shower, much less get out of the house for half an hour?

It comes from competitive AP. When people imply that letting your baby sleep in the carseat carrier for half an hour is some kind of Clockwork Orange torture treatment, something is not good.

Instead of helping women be the best mamas they can be, I sometimes feel like the AP movement can be a way to make women even more tortured about their choices -- because, sometimes, you really just can't be good enough.

[Houdini]

Originally Posted by chinaKat

I'm glad this topic got picked up from the other thread, I thought it was interesting.

I fully agree that there is a lot of "AP-er than thou" attitude in so-called AP communities -- be they online or in real life.

The problem I see is that an unreachable standard is being set here -- much like that of the woman who feels she "must" WOH or SAHM and clean the house and make fabulous meals and provide amazingly enriching activities for her kids etc. etc. etc. in order to be the "right" kind of mom. NOBODY can meet this super-standard and the woman inevitably feels like a failure.

This pattern is also established with the mega AP lifestyle. I know this, because of the kind of posts I see here all the time. Mamas worry that if their baby cries for three minutes, EVER, that the child will suffer horrible psychological damage. They ask pleadingly if it's "okay" that their kid accidentally saw half an episode of Mr. Rogers once, or if the baby sits in a bouncy seat while the mom takes a five minute shower. They write of the angst they suffer for leaving their child in the care of their husbands for an hour, for the first time, when the child is over three years old.

Again and again I see mamas posting with guilt -- crushing guilt -- about not meeting some sort of AP super standard at ALL TIMES. And attempting to meet most of these standards entails this huge, astonishing self-sacrifice on the mother's part.

When did AP go from "hold your child, be there for him" to "the mother is no longer a person with needs and desires", anyway? When a mom feels like crap b/c she needs to take a shower, much less get out of the house for half an hour?

It comes from competitive AP. When people imply that letting your baby sleep in the carseat carrier for half an hour is some kind of Clockwork Orange torture treatment, something is not good.

Instead of helping women be the best mamas they can be, I sometimes feel like the AP movement can be a way to make women even more tortured about their choices -- because, sometimes, you really just can't be good enough.

[runes]

the title of your thread leaves something to be desired (i'm being very nice this morning), although this is a fascinating thread.

to me, this has a lot to do with personal experience. i suppose i'm fortunate to not having had the displeasure of engaging in a crunchier-than-thou pissing match with other mothers. i could see that if i did, it would leave a bad taste in my mouth, though.

doesn't this have a lot to do with the definition of ap/nfl? it really isn't about the specifics of the food, diapering, slinging, discipline, educational etc-etc-etc choices that we make, it's about being a conscious, connected responsive parent.

as for mainstream mama bashing here at mdc, you have to remember that for many of us, this is the only place that we can vent about stuff like that and get like-minded support and commiseration. so that definitely requires some consideration.

[alegna]

Originally Posted by MomInFlux

I have a wonderful DH, who joyfully practices AP, and is a SAHD, and whom I would consider a feminist. He's also very crunchy . At home, we're all about AP/NFL: homebirth, EFB, baby wearing, no vaxing, no circ, real food, sleep sharing, GD, homeschool, yadda-yadda-yadda. We don't do those things because we're striving to be "more granola" than our neighbors. We do these things because we think they're the right thing to do, and we LIKE doing them.

: Except I stay home because computer geeks make better $$ than teachers

I do what I do because it's the right thing to do. Do I wish all children were parented in a similar way? Sure. I also wish that all children had enough to eat and clean water.

-Angela

[thismama]

Okay, well I also don't like the title of the thread.

I definitely agree with the content though. I see so much judgment in AP/NFL circles. I don't know if it is specific to those circles... do some reading on a mainstream board, or hang at a mainstream playgroup, and you will see much criticism about how "sick" EBF is, how children must get on a good sleep schedule established thru CIO, how "irresponsible" UC and even homebirth is, kids need to learn to be independent, what age did your dc give up his paci/bottle/favoured lovie, etc etc on and on.

For me I came to AP as part of my progressive/feminist analysis. I want to be kind to my child, I want to respect and meet her needs, I want to value interdependence over pushing independence, I want to promote connection, I want to honour her in the way I parent her, I want to feel and live my own womanly power as bringer of life, nurturer, without turning that over to the patriarchal establishment any more than I have to.

It seems stupid to stop all of this just with my child and my life, and turn to hating and shaming and judging when we are talking about other mamas. Expecting martyrdom and pressuring women to repress our own needs is wrong. Black and white thinking, where one thing is right and everything else pales in comparison, with no grey area or room for individual interpretation, is wrong IMO.

We don't do it with our children, yet we do it with each other. Why? Misogyny, I believe. And defensiveness. And the fact that this way of interaction is so ingrained in us in the culture.

I think it would do the AP/NFL movement a world of good to look at this issue with open eyes.

[MamaBug]

Ok I have edited out the offensive title and any reference to it or the word nazi as well as a post that was not within the UA. If I have edited your post, know that I did so only because of quoting and such. I do feel this is a good conversation but we must keep it within the guidelines of the UA. Please make yourself more familiar with the UA if you need to before posting on this thread again. If you have any questions about my editing please feel free to contact me, but there was so much to edit that I felt it necessary to just do it myself in the interest of time and to also allow the converstaion to continue in a timely manner.

Please keep this conversation on track and within the UA or I will be forced to remove it for good.

Thanks
MamaBug

[thismama]

Yay!

[stirringleaf]

Originally Posted by MamaBug

Ok I have edited out the offensive title and any reference to it or the word nazi as well as a post that was not within the UA. If I have edited your post, know that I did so only because of quoting and such. I do feel this is a good conversation but we must keep it within the guidelines of the UA. Please make yourself more familiar with the UA if you need to before posting on this thread again. If you have any questions about my editing please feel free to contact me, but there was so much to edit that I felt it necessary to just do it myself in the interest of time and to also allow the converstaion to continue in a timely manner.

Please keep this conversation on track and within the UA or I will be forced to remove it for good.

Thanks
MamaBug

Thank you!!!!!!

[MamaBug]

Your very welcome. I am sorry I did not post to tell where it went but I am pregnant and well..... you all know how that goes

Carry on!

[srain]

I see a lot of families around me making what look like non-feminist choices from the outside: fathers functioning as babysitters rather than parents, mothers doing ALL the non-paid work (sometimes in addition to paid work), women giving up their own careers to care for their children, while men work more hours than ever, etc. BUT I also know that some of the choices my husband and I have made appear anti-feminist, when they actually were matters of convenience and choice. We both knew before we had kids that we didn't want to put them in day care, which meant one of us had to stay home with them. For the first three years I worked full-time and my husband worked part-time; then I stopped working entirely and he increased his hours slightly. I gave up a professional, respected career because I wanted to, a decision I'm sure many of my (childless) feminist friends rolled their eyes at. It was a CHOICE (something feminism is all about, right?) that I was happy to be able to make.

Time-consuming activities we perform for the sake of the environment and health are shared fairly equally. We also made the decision early on to truly co-parent; while I see many AP moms choosing to care for babies with very little help from their husbands, we didn't go that route.

BUT I don't feel it's my place to judge the women I see who from my perspective allow their husbands to live like the stereotypical 50's breadwinner, while they grind their own wheat and stay up nursing all night. Just like my choices may look nonfeminist from the outide, it's possible there are a lot of things I don't see in their relationship, too.

[Yooper]

I think too often people take "discussions" of a certain topic as "holier than thou". In a discussion people discuss thier reasons for doing things and others might contrast or compare thier experiences. Somehow someone in the party becomes deemed the "holier than thou" person. That person can be at either end of the spectrum of discussion or might actually be somewhere in the middle but still apart from the majority. I do not like the "I saw a mother do X in store Y. Isn't that SO bad?!?!?" threads. But often, real honest discussions about parenting becomes the same sort of thread. I have been on both ends of this phenomenon here on MDC. I find some things that people do to simply be too much work for myself. But they are happy and that is cool. I am sure I have also been in the "martyr" camp to others. Again, I am happy with my choices and that should be fine too.

Like take homeschool. We are planning to unschool. People IRL ask me what we are doing. Too often I try to mask my reasons. I do not want to outright say why we are doing it for fear that the person on the asking end takes it as a personal insult. Instead I probably sound like a non-commital, uniformed, parent. I will say "Oh, I just don't want to miss her all day" or something wishy-washy like that. But I have zero issue or offense when someone else weighs up their options and chooses soemthing else. In fact, I hope they tell me, even if they fear offense, because I gain from hearing other persepctives. I know most parents are doing what they think is best for thier families even if it is vastly different than my choices. I still want to hear thier reasons, if they feel like sharing. I think that is invaluable for me. I like to discuss, ask questions, compare experiences. Why not?