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Questioning the 'Naturalness" of AP - Page 5

post #81 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrennaMama View Post
Given some of the behaviors or attitides u described in your children, mumm, I would begin to ask myself about the quality of my Attachment. We hear and read a lot about APing, and it's become a broadly used term. But there are degrees to Attachment, as illustrated by the Emotional Availability Scales innovated by Dr. Zeynep Biringen (sp?) in her book Raising a Secure Child: Creating an Emotional Connection Between You and Your Child


I took this great course on Attachment Parenting and Gentle Discipline when dd was about 9 months old. We used that book as the text, and it really shifted my paradigm. She reveals degrees of attachment and how we can affect the bond we share with our child from baby-hood into adolescence and beyond. Discussing points like: A parent and child can be very attached, but that attachment might be an insecure one, due to unconscious behaviors from the parent reflecting their own child-parent relationship memories, or the parent and/or the child experience of everyday stressors; as well as how we need to provide a source of emotional and psychological rejuvenation, (refueling) throughout those years and that if we're doing 'self-checks' and maintaining an awareness of that emotional connection, we are providing a stable foundation for that child's relationships now and in the future <- which I believe is at the heart of APing.

I heartily recommend this book all the time.

eta: link to book...
I see that your post got buried ... too bad bc I really think this is such an important topic. I have done my fair share of reading on attachment and development of attachment. I will definitely check out the book.

Often when I read about "high needs" kids here on MDC and the description of how they are high needs, my mind always gravitates to attachment issues. Personally, I know I would be very concerned if I had a "velcro" baby and would try and really find out why. I have also recently read of the phenomena of "over attachment" being more recognized.

As with all things, I think some will always view AP practices as a strict set of guidelines that must be adhered too and others will see them as a guiding set of principals to use the best way they know how.

As far as it being "natural", I don't see that it matters if its natural or not. I believe that the concepts and practices that go along with AP are beneficial and loving and that to me is reason enough to learn and espouse them.

Maggie
post #82 of 97
To the person who sarcastically? commented on my post about year-long paid maternity leaves--what I mean is that if mothers who were not 100% SAHMs were able to spend that year with some income they'd be much more likely to BF that full year and to generally be a less stressed parent.

And when you know you have to go back to work 6 weeks after your baby is born (I know of at least one person who did this because only her job provided health insurance, not her husband's), you are going to be spending that whole time getting ready to leave instead of relaxing and being with your baby 'naturally.' A year of paid leave would also be just a wonderful gift to a single mother. (BTW paid leaves sometimes work like unemployment compensation--you get paid according to what you made before, how long you were working, etc.)

And no, I certainly didn't mean to say that you should not AP in our society! On the contrary. I just meant that the structure of our society, especially for lower-income and blue-collar, service or industrial workers, makes it very difficult. (because these work schedules tend to be especially strict and employers unforgiving of time off, no place or opportunity to pump milk, etc.) And that to aspire to the AP idea within this society is doubly difficult because not only are you trying to everything alone, you are doing it in an environment that's unfriendly to parenting (especially mothering) in general.
post #83 of 97
I was just thinking that if I lived in the wild, perhaps as a native american did long ago... well that it would be best for my safety and the tribes safety if I kept my baby from crying... I am imagining different scenarios where enemy tribes or wild animals would be alerted to my presence/the presence of a baby if they heard a cry. I suppose that is why the tribes were strategic to not put mamas and babies in those situations...

Anyways, my whole rambling point is that it does seem natural that I would need to keep my baby quiet and do what was necessary for that to happen... perhaps in life threatening situations...
post #84 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaidymama View Post
Anyways, my whole rambling point is that it does seem natural that I would need to keep my baby quiet and do what was necessary for that to happen... perhaps in life threatening situations...
yeah, there is a reason that a mom's milk lets down when her baby cries!

Heck, when I was BFing, my milk would let down when ANY baby cried, so I could agrue that nursing other people's babies is natural :

Is APing natural? Yes, that's the whole point.

Isn't living in isolation natural? No, not even close. We were ment to live surrounded by extended family and close friends of all ages who would take joy in our children with us and allow us to bask in motherhood. We were not meant to do this alone, where the routine care and nurturing of our children would become a burden.

I say -- let's all live tribally! My 8 and 10 year old would love to spend some time making faces at your babies and playing with your toddlers (while learning how to some day be mothers themselves), and we could all give each other a break. And the little kids would learn so much from the big kids, knowing they could ran back to you anytime they wanted to, but using that knowledge as a basis for playing freely. We could chat while we cook and clean, making the time fly.

We were ment to AP, but we were never meant to do it alone.
post #85 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by WNB View Post
oh, sorry - the "KISS rule" is an acronym for "keep it simple, stupid" used fairly regularly in my line of work (database programming/management consulting), the idea being that added complexity does not necessarily add value or improve results. I sort of agree with you on speculation about the evolution if kissing, though I always figured it originated with infant's oral exploration of mom's body (boobs for food, then chin, etc.).
I know the kiss principle - I was just being funny (or not I guess).
post #86 of 97
Instinctual and natural might not be the same thing. Actually, our lives being so ordered and unhindered by serious survival stress may mean that we over cater to our instincts because we CAN.

However, I don't intend on giving up nursing for comfort because of an imaginary potential polar bear looking for a me-snack.
post #87 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
I say -- let's all live tribally! My 8 and 10 year old would love to spend some time making faces at your babies and playing with your toddlers (while learning how to some day be mothers themselves), and we could all give each other a break. And the little kids would learn so much from the big kids, knowing they could ran back to you anytime they wanted to, but using that knowledge as a basis for playing freely. We could chat while we cook and clean, making the time fly.
I'm in.
post #88 of 97
I think it is not so much that AP is not "natural" but that our society is not natural. As a previous poster has said, it is not natural for a mother to have to leave her baby to go work all day when her baby is only 2 or 3 months old. It is not natural for a mother to have to stay at home all by herself with no other adult contact and have discussions with her 3-year old all day long. It is not natural to live in a house alone with no support or companianship from other adults all day. It is not natural not to be able to carry your baby around with you all day while you work if you want. It is not natural to have to cover up my baby whenever she wants to breastfeed outside our home because people might catch a glimpse of my nipple. It is not natural to guilty about taking a shower in the morning because you have to leave your baby in the infant seat for 20 to 30 minutes to do this and she cries the whole time and there is no other adult in your home to hold her.

All of these factors add up to the fact that all the (what I believe to be) very natural aspects of AP like breastfeeding and close and prolonged contact with one's infant are really difficult to do in our world unless you are willing to live like a hermit, which itself is - not natural (and not healthy)!
post #89 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuller2 View Post
To the person who sarcastically? commented on my post about year-long paid maternity leaves--what I mean is that if mothers who were not 100% SAHMs were able to spend that year with some income they'd be much more likely to BF that full year and to generally be a less stressed parent.

I commented on your post. I wasn't being sarcastic, I totally agree with you! Sorry if it came across that way.

It amazes me that the connection between low BF rates, and the lack of paid, year-long maternity leaves isn't more of a political issue.
post #90 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmlp View Post
All of these factors add up to the fact that all the (what I believe to be) very natural aspects of AP like breastfeeding and close and prolonged contact with one's infant are really difficult to do in our world unless you are willing to live like a hermit, which itself is - not natural (and not healthy)!
Right. And, these things are also very difficult to do unless you have a very supportive partner.
post #91 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by cmlp View Post
I think it is not so much that AP is not "natural" but that our society is not natural. As a previous poster has said, it is not natural for a mother to have to leave her baby to go work all day when her baby is only 2 or 3 months old. It is not natural for a mother to have to stay at home all by herself with no other adult contact and have discussions with her 3-year old all day long. It is not natural to live in a house alone with no support or companianship from other adults all day. It is not natural not to be able to carry your baby around with you all day while you work if you want. It is not natural to have to cover up my baby whenever she wants to breastfeed outside our home because people might catch a glimpse of my nipple. It is not natural to guilty about taking a shower in the morning because you have to leave your baby in the infant seat for 20 to 30 minutes to do this and she cries the whole time and there is no other adult in your home to hold her.

All of these factors add up to the fact that all the (what I believe to be) very natural aspects of AP like breastfeeding and close and prolonged contact with one's infant are really difficult to do in our world unless you are willing to live like a hermit, which itself is - not natural (and not healthy)!
post #92 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by Linda on the move View Post
Isn't living in isolation natural? No, not even close. We were ment to live surrounded by extended family and close friends of all ages who would take joy in our children with us and allow us to bask in motherhood. We were not meant to do this alone, where the routine care and nurturing of our children would become a burden.

I say -- let's all live tribally! My 8 and 10 year old would love to spend some time making faces at your babies and playing with your toddlers (while learning how to some day be mothers themselves), and we could all give each other a break. And the little kids would learn so much from the big kids, knowing they could ran back to you anytime they wanted to, but using that knowledge as a basis for playing freely. We could chat while we cook and clean, making the time fly.

We were ment to AP, but we were never meant to do it alone.
I agree very much with this.

I'll live tribally with you, I'm all for that kind of life. Heck, I'm bored.
post #93 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaidymama View Post
I practice AP, but my stance on babies/kids crying are that if they fall down I'm going to acknowledge the accident, offer hugs and kisses and nursing... the child can decide what s/he wants... and I'm not going to distract them to keep them from crying... I've read that they need to feel comfortable to express their crying in that regard. But I wouldn't let them cry as an act of neglect/ignoring.
Agree.

There is a world of difference btw a 3 month old and a 3 year old crying. My 3 year old has options. He can self-soothe if he needs too. And I can help him learn, in supportive and gentle ways.

I was definitely one of those "terrified of crying" moms with my first. I was so convinced that any crying - regardless of the reason or my response- would lead to irreversible brain damage or psychological trauma, that I would freak out whenever my baby started to cry.

I am a lot more laid back with my second, realizing that it isn't about any one situation but rather the pattern. Letting my baby cry for 20 minutes in the car one day when I am in gridlocked traffic on the freeway won't result in permanent damage to my kid. If it happened every day? Maybe there would be long term impact, but now and again? Not so bad.

Of course, I avoid those situations because listening to extended crying sucks.

I think my overall thoughts on AP is that many many people take the individual techniques way too seriously and too literally. I know I did. It is the philosophy that matters and parents need to look at the big picture as well as the here and now.

My 2 cents.

Siobhan
post #94 of 97
Quote:
I think my overall thoughts on AP is that many many people take the individual techniques way too seriously and too literally. I know I did. It is the philosophy that matters and parents need to look at the big picture as well as the here and now.
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post #95 of 97
I fell into parenting at 19 while travelling in Mexico. I knew I couldn't carry all the stuff I wouold need for formula or rely on good water supply so I breastfed. When we rented hotel rooms with only one double bed it was obvious ds would sleep with us. I carried him because a pushchair seemed impractical for constant travel by bus etc

I parented ds2 in the same way here in the UK because it had been easy with ds1 evn though I was materially better placed to be more mainstream. It was only when I got online in 2000 that I found other folk who did this consciously and called it AP.

I totally agree that the make up and perceived priorities of our society lead away from attachment which is why AP starts to look like hard work to so many people. Even our statutory 26 weeks paid maternity leave with 12 of those weeks at half pay if you agree to return for at least 3 months at any time after the 26 weeks has ended doesn't seem to encourage more women to breastfeed babywear or co sleep.

I am all for parenting as a tribe. I want to share my time with other mums with children so that we can support each other in real physical ways like bulk food preparation or domestic tasks or even do something like sewing without needing to stop every 10 minutes.

I feel for my new mama neighbours with small children but when I offer any practical support to them they often give me the impression that they feel that they should be able to manage alone. 'I'm ok, it's OK I can manage'

My SILs house is spotless and I know that her dd spends a lot of time in a bouncy chair or her cot while SIL cleans.

The expectation that each of us is an island and that we must keep everything running smoothly, have perfect children, a perfect house and work outside the home is distracting us from connecting with our chidren or just taking time to 'be'.

Adding the 'must haves' of AP to this already great burden just seems like madness to many and therefore the 'naturalness' or 'normalness' of it is doubted.

Sorry of this is a bit disjointed; I wrote it in four short sittings!
post #96 of 97
Quote:
Originally Posted by orangefoot View Post
I parented ds2 in the same way here in the UK because it had been easy with ds1 evn though I was materially better placed to be more mainstream.... I totally agree that the make up and perceived priorities of our society lead away from attachment which is why AP starts to look like hard work to so many people.
I agree that AP is much less work in the long run than mainstream parenting. I stumbled into AP, and have always felt that it was like finding parenting short cuts.

When my kids were babies I had less stuff to cart around and could be more spontaneous. My kids were happy in the toddler years and discipline issues where far less than those that my mainstream friends were going through. We are moving into the adolescent years and expect them to be as pleasant as the trip has been so far because our kids are super to be around and really like us. More importantly, they like themselves

So yeah, parenting is work. But is it *more* work to parent our kids this way? I don't think so.
post #97 of 97
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