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Why do Police have guns? - Page 6

post #101 of 144
I can't believe that with the overwhelmingly pro-police sentiment on this thread anyone could say that it turned into a police bashing thread. Over 5 pages on this thread and no more than maybe 10 posts that don't glorify cops . . . Go figure.
post #102 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caroline248 View Post
99% of the time, they are good people. Same as any other profession.
Sorry to be cynical, but I don't know of too many professions where 99% of them are good people, and most professions don't involve carrying deadly weapons, so the consequences of their being not so good aren't nearly as significant.
post #103 of 144
One winter afternoon I had four police officers come to my door. They were somber in appearance and looked like they wished they could be anywhere but where they were.

They came inside, identified themselves and asked if my husband was home. He had just woken up after a graveyard shift and was just coming up the stairs.

Once H was in the front room, they asked if I could take the little ones into another room and get them occupied while we talked.

I did and came back into the front room.

It was then that they told me my 16 year old daughter was dead. She had been found hanging from the bleachers at the football field at her school.

I don't remember many details after that.. I know they called victim's services and had volunteers come to the house. One went to our dd's room with my H and they went through some of her things.

Once VS reps and family got here, they left to go back to the scene and try to piece things together some more.

The following days are a blur but I do remember speaking with the school LEO a few times as well as other LEO's who came to the house or who were at the scene.

To this day, whenever I encounter any of the LEO's who worked on my child's death I am greeted with a hug and asked how we I and the rest of my family are doing.

There is not a single LEO who was on the case who was not touched by this tragedy. While they may not bare the burden of grief that my family carries, they have all been touched by it and some changed for the rest of their lives.

I am often at the courthouse in support of a friend who is in an ongoing case regarding his mother's murder. If one of these officers are there, they always acknowledge me. Even if it is a brief nod of the head. And yes, at times, there are still LEO's whose eyes water up when we meet.

I challenge the belief that LEO's are evil, bad men who get a kick out of torturing the general public.

In my experience, that is the furthest thing from the truth.
post #104 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonflyBlue View Post
I challenge the belief that LEO's are evil, bad men who get a kick out of torturing the general public.

In my experience, that is the furthest thing from the truth.
I am sorry. No one should ever have to experience what you went through.

I can understand why some people fear and dislike police as a group. Anyone who spends any significant amount of time at protests and direct actions is going to find themselves in conflict with law enforcement, even if they are not directly breaking any laws.
post #105 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonflyBlue View Post
One winter afternoon I had four police officers come to my door. They were somber in appearance and looked like they wished they could be anywhere but where they were.

They came inside, identified themselves and asked if my husband was home. He had just woken up after a graveyard shift and was just coming up the stairs.

Once H was in the front room, they asked if I could take the little ones into another room and get them occupied while we talked.

I did and came back into the front room.

It was then that they told me my 16 year old daughter was dead. She had been found hanging from the bleachers at the football field at her school.

I don't remember many details after that.. I know they called victim's services and had volunteers come to the house. One went to our dd's room with my H and they went through some of her things.

Once VS reps and family got here, they left to go back to the scene and try to piece things together some more.

The following days are a blur but I do remember speaking with the school LEO a few times as well as other LEO's who came to the house or who were at the scene.

To this day, whenever I encounter any of the LEO's who worked on my child's death I am greeted with a hug and asked how we I and the rest of my family are doing.

There is not a single LEO who was on the case who was not touched by this tragedy. While they may not bare the burden of grief that my family carries, they have all been touched by it and some changed for the rest of their lives.

I am often at the courthouse in support of a friend who is in an ongoing case regarding his mother's murder. If one of these officers are there, they always acknowledge me. Even if it is a brief nod of the head. And yes, at times, there are still LEO's whose eyes water up when we meet.

I challenge the belief that LEO's are evil, bad men who get a kick out of torturing the general public.

In my experience, that is the furthest thing from the truth.


I am sorry. I know that those are the cases that my husband never lets go. I am so very thankeful there was someone there to try to help you...I can't imagine.
post #106 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonflyBlue View Post
One winter afternoon I had four police officers come to my door. They were somber in appearance and looked like they wished they could be anywhere but where they were.

They came inside, identified themselves and asked if my husband was home. He had just woken up after a graveyard shift and was just coming up the stairs.

Once H was in the front room, they asked if I could take the little ones into another room and get them occupied while we talked.

I did and came back into the front room.

It was then that they told me my 16 year old daughter was dead. She had been found hanging from the bleachers at the football field at her school.

I don't remember many details after that.. I know they called victim's services and had volunteers come to the house. One went to our dd's room with my H and they went through some of her things.

Once VS reps and family got here, they left to go back to the scene and try to piece things together some more.

The following days are a blur but I do remember speaking with the school LEO a few times as well as other LEO's who came to the house or who were at the scene.

To this day, whenever I encounter any of the LEO's who worked on my child's death I am greeted with a hug and asked how we I and the rest of my family are doing.

There is not a single LEO who was on the case who was not touched by this tragedy. While they may not bare the burden of grief that my family carries, they have all been touched by it and some changed for the rest of their lives.

I am often at the courthouse in support of a friend who is in an ongoing case regarding his mother's murder. If one of these officers are there, they always acknowledge me. Even if it is a brief nod of the head. And yes, at times, there are still LEO's whose eyes water up when we meet.

I challenge the belief that LEO's are evil, bad men who get a kick out of torturing the general public.

In my experience, that is the furthest thing from the truth.
I'm so sorry you had to go through this. Many to you
post #107 of 144
Hmm.. This may be interesting as well...

H just got off the phone with his mom. It seems a cousin of his was found dead in apartment of an apparent suicide.

Two years ago, the cousin who suffered from schitzophrenia attempted to end his life via suicide by cop.

The LEO at the scene could have chosen a head or chest shot in order to end the cousin's gun weilding tirade. Instead, he made a clean shoulder shot, disarming him and sparing his life even though he was begging the LEO to kill him.

Sadly, the cousin lost the battle with his demons but the two extra years he had did allow him to try and get some help, get to know his children better and try to make a go of things.

Had the LEO shot to kill, he never would have had those chances to make things right. His family would have been faced with an even more horrific suicide.

Was the LEO right in not shooting to kill? I don't know. But in this case, the LEO did what he felt was best in making his shot.

Not all LEO's are blood thirsty gun toting machines waiting for a chance to take somebody out.

Not all posts here have blasted LEO's. Some have. I stand firm in my support and know that I would never want to have a career where I had to second guess myself in life or death situations let alone be facing the judgment of those who have never done my job let alone have an inkling of what it entails.
post #108 of 144
"This is regrettable, since these are obviously isolated incidents, and there are hundreds of thousands of police officers in the US, and hundreds of thousands more in Canada -- the vast majority of whom do their jobs with honour, integrity and service to their sworn community."

See here's the thing, I don't disagree with this. I believe that the vast majority of people who become cops do so for good reasns, and I believe the vast majority of them act in good faith most of the time. And if I was in a situation (though it would have to be serious) where I needed the police I would call them. However I believ they work within a system (same as the army) which I believe is so fundamentally flawed as to make them participate and inforce wrongfull laws.

I have been gassed in both illegal and legal situations, and honestly I'm not offended by the implication. If I view a law as immoral or I believe breaking a minor law (trespas, obstuction, trafick etc) will highlight a greater injustice I will do so. So sue me. And I don't believe every cop out there at protests is an inhuman monster, they're just people doing thier job, I get that, I just think a good portion of their job is supporting a system which I oppose (and for the record I'm and anarchist not a communist. who's red baiting who?).

And also for the record I'm not anti-gun in the fanatical sense of the words. I let my kids play guns, though I express my disaproval, essentially by saying that guns are tools for killing and I dont like games that involve killing, but I don't forbid it. I wouldn't like games where they beat each other to death or stabbed each other in jest, but like others I don't think making things taboo helps kids understand them. I will never have a gun in the house but dh has done gun training, I've shot guns, we teach the kids gun safety etc.

But I am very fearfull of the good guy/bad guy dichotomy. I don't think all cops are evil monsters, but neither do I think all drug addicts are evil monsters or all people who break the law. I think there is an extremely complicated social and economic system which sets people up to be in different situations and I try to challenge my kids to think about why some people might be "bad" and how they could be helped to be "better". And FWIW I don't tell my kids that all cops are bad evil monsters out to harm people, but I also don't tell them that cops are the good guys who protect us from the bad guys, because I think that's an oversimplification so extreme as to be not true.

As for saying that the police don't have a high mortality rate comparitavly, I don't mean that as a disrespect to anyone. Every year I attend the day of mourning for workers killed on the job ceremony in my city and it includes cops. I just don't think there is enough understanding of other industries that are extremely dangerous, by and large police/firefighters and emt's get way more publicity than anyone else.
post #109 of 144
Any one volunteer to be a police officer in any major US city without a gun? We were side swiped last week and the police officer that came to the scene was wearing a bullet proof vest.( Since i wasn't the offender i had a lot of time for reflection as he talked with the other driver) It got me to thinking how crazy the wackos are that they have to wear a vest for protection from others with guns, not themselves. And then I tried to put myself in the officers shoes and I concluded that it's better to have than to be with out. They have to deal with a lot of volatile people.
post #110 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by dadinblue View Post
Ridiculous assertion, that a police officer carries a gun to threaten people. And then to mention taxes? When did someone get shot for non-payment of taxes?

As a trained officer, I can tell you that I do not pull my gun to wave it around in an intimidating manner, as if to encourage someone to obey the law.

If I have my gun out, it means that the situation warrants it -- I am in danger, my partner is in danger, the suspect is in danger or a member of the public is in danger -- and my job is to protect those lives.

Anti-police attitudes are so pervasive in this thread -- but few people seem willing to step up and explain why they feel that way, why their husband was tasered etc. They're just content to sit back and bash away at the police...

I wonder who they will call when their car is stolen by some meth-head. Or when they are in the 7-11 and a gunman walks in and takes hostages. Or when the next Son of Sam, Green River Killer, Charles Manson, or Jeffrey Dahmer starts stalking their neighbourhoods.
No doubt cops have a tough job. But the police are the "arm of the law". They carry guns to protect themselves who might threaten them. But they also carry guns as agents of the state to enforce the state's laws.

The state participates in these constantly, every day. With no knock warrants, false arrests. Why did those three "rapists" from Duke get arrested? Fear of the state, perhaps? How about Corey Maye, when his house was busted into late at night with a no knock he thought burglars were at his door, picking up his gun he killed one officer, then he realized who they were and went willingly. Then he was put on death row. How about Ed and Elaine Brown who are not paying their taxes and their house is under siege? Neither Ed nor Elaine have harmed anyone, yet armed to the teeth "soldiers" surround their property threatening them.

Cops have a tough job. Typically I don't blame them when they shoot. Either way they are agents of the state and do the bidding of the state whether or not someone is a threat to others or not.

All laws are enforced with the threat of violence. The gun is part of that violence. I despise violence.

One more thing, who comes when I call the police? Typically, no one!!! They don't respond, or come, in any timely fashion. Three times in the last year I have called them. Once they showed, over an hour after the call despite the fact I had the suspect in my kitchen.

If you want something done...............
post #111 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by PareMesAlt View Post
For those of you who are close to police officers. If they encounter a suspected criminal with a weapon, what is their training and what is their instincts? Shoot to kill or shoot to wound?

I brought this up with an upstate friend of mine, and he said most of his police friends will shoot to kill. Though this is not official policy in that county.
My BIL is a cop and I think he says shoot to kill is the policy where he works, but I don't know if that's true everywhere. He is a good guy and would be hesitant to use a gun even in the worst cases.

But it is not true that the only means of defense/control that cops use are guns. They are highly trained in many other non-lethal tactics. They carry mace, clubs or wands, tazors, cuffs and have training in hands-on defense. If there is no gun and individual is not threatening lives, the cop will not use his either. Cops are trained to use common sense and good judgement, even if some of them do not always do so.

Again, that's a lot to explain to a child. So is the terrorism that has recently come to the forefront of our world. And I would say beyond explaining things, make sure your home is safe and promotes safe behavior. (What are they watching on TV, or internet? Sometimes the idea is as dangerous as the opportunity.)
post #112 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by BurgundyElephant View Post
If a cop doesn't have a gun and the criminal does, then he is going to get shot. If you take away all the guns, then the police don't have to have them.

That's never going to happen in the USA.
Jumping in late here, but... how would you "take away all the guns" in this country? It would be impossible in most countries, actually. If you have laws saying that nobody can have a gun, then the law-abiding citizens, police officers, and such will not have guns while the criminals will still have them. Unfortunately, criminals are not going to listen to a law saying they cannot have guns - they will obtain them illegally, and the people who could protect themselves and others will be disarmed. That would be a pretty bad situation to put ourselves in!
post #113 of 144
Would that there were a way to stuff the whole concept back into Pandora's box. But there isn't.
post #114 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambrose View Post
2.) I don't care that the chest is 'a lot faster to point at'. You can shoot at a shoulder or thigh or kneecap and have them on the ground and not kill someone.
This just isn't realistic. In the time it takes to aim elsewhere (not to mention that it is easier to miss a leg or shoulder), the officer himself would very likely get shot. And as others have already mentioned, a gunman could fall to the ground wounded and still be able to shoot an officer in the chest from his place on the ground. or he could be so pumped full of drugs that the pain won't even affect him, giving him plenty of opportunity to shoot hi own weapon.

Sure, you don't have to kill someone, but there's a very high risk you could get killed yourself.
post #115 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by catnip View Post
Would that there were a way to stuff the whole concept back into Pandora's box. But there isn't.
Right - that makes sense. There are lots of things that I wish had never come into existence, but I see that it would be near impossible to outlaw them now... even if they were outlawed, they'd still exist.
post #116 of 144

Why?

I don't understand why this is such a difficult issue. Cops have guns because bad guys sometimes have guns. Fight fire with fire. And yes it is shoot to kill. It's easy to say "aim for the shoulder" but the only people who say that haven't had a gun pointed at them from someone who means to use it to kill you. Also if you read the news, cops don't just pull the trigger once, they unload the whole clip. This is because someone with a knife can still kill you within 20 feet or so after you have shot them. Adrenalin (not including drugs) is an amazing thing.
post #117 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by somasoul View Post
The state participates in these constantly, every day. With no knock warrants, false arrests. Why did those three "rapists" from Duke get arrested? Fear of the state, perhaps? How about Corey Maye, when his house was busted into late at night with a no knock he thought burglars were at his door, picking up his gun he killed one officer, then he realized who they were and went willingly. Then he was put on death row. How about Ed and Elaine Brown who are not paying their taxes and their house is under siege? Neither Ed nor Elaine have harmed anyone, yet armed to the teeth "soldiers" surround their property threatening them.

.

Those things happen. It's unfortunate. But, it was a CRIMINAL who LIED about those three Duke boys. It's not like she was this fine upstanding citizen. Yet, these boys were arrested on what she said they did. These boys reputations were ruined because of what one woman said they did. If they HAD actually been guilty, but these boys weren't arrested because of they type of person she was, everybody here would be all in a lather.

So, these kids, and their families had to suffer because of her and a crooked judge. How are the police guilty of this? They were just doing the job they were assinged to do.

As for Ed and Elaine Brown. PAY YOUR TAXES, or leave the country. If you don't like How your country is going, get the heck out! I seriously doubt, the Browns had no idea they were going to be forcefully removed from their home. I imagine, they said.. "We are staying here until they come in and take us out". I know people who lost their homes because of tax evasion. They got notices, they had warning, they had an eviction notice, and they LEFT on their own. If you choose to make it hard, then too bad so sad. Either pay your taxes, or you lose your property.
post #118 of 144
If I or my family was being attacked or threatened by someone with a gun, I would hope responding LEO's would be armed with more than a smile and a slinky.

And I would hope they would shoot to kill, not shoot to annoy.
post #119 of 144
My husband was in the Marine Corps for almost 11 years and did 2 tours to Iraq. We never told our daughter that he was "killing bad guys" we just said he was going to work. If she continued to ask, I don't know what I would have told her. None of that protecting our freedom BS. DH did not enjoy going to Iraq and does not believe that we should have gone to war. The war was one of the reasons why he got out in the middle of his career.

I suppose I will get blasted here, but I always thought our military had a purpose...until Iraq. I always thought that they were trained to defend our country, not create chaos in another with no credible threat. It is terrible that we have lost so many Iraqi and American lives for NOTHING.

So now DH is out of the Marine Corps (will be Aug. 22) and is training to be a police officer. He has a gun, the first time we have ever had one in our home.
We don't let our children play with toy guns or pretend to kill people. My husband has seen people die. Friends and enemies in Fallujah. It is not a game. It is not fun. If he has to kill someone to protect himself or a fellow police officer, he will do it, but he will not take it lightly.

I hope that people can see that not all service members are blood thirsty and trigger happy. I personally know a lot of people in Iraq and don't know anyone who wants to be there.
post #120 of 144
Quote:
Originally Posted by USMCbaby View Post
I suppose I will get blasted here, but I always thought our military had a purpose...until Iraq. I always thought that they were trained to defend our country, not create chaos in another with no credible threat. It is terrible that we have lost so many Iraqi and American lives for NOTHING.
Well, as somebody else already mentioned, the purpose is still to defend our country - by taking it to the source instead of ignoring it and waiting for it to come to our country. The US military seems to also have the purpose of wanting to help other countries who are under harsh dictators who violate their human rights daily. Now, you can argue that's right or it's wrong, but the point is that our military is always one to go try to help. Sure, sometimes it doesn't seem like anything is really worthwhile, but at least they are trying where not many others would, and they are trying to do it to make the whole world safer.

I have heard several soldiers say they *do* have a purpose there - and I think that it is really sad and possibly offensive to the families of soldiers who have died in Iraq to say that they died for nothing. And when you compare the numbers, we've lost far fewer in Iraq than in other wars (not that it's a good thing to lose lives at all, but for comparison's sake)... our media sensationalizes everything, and we have the technology and ability to have every single death get media attention, which makes everything seem far worse than it did to people during, say, WWII.

I am not a die-hard supporter of the war, but it bothers me to hear that people are dying for "nothing." They made a choice to be soldiers, and most of them do that job with pride and honor, and their families are extremely proud of them and do not think they died in vain (again, the media finds individuals like Cindy Sheehan to make us think that everyone who has a relative in the war is against it rather than being proud of them).
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