Why do Police have guns? - Page 3

[PareMesAlt]

I see that this post has brought up a lot of auxilary issues like:

Gun Control (which I oppose on libertarian grounds)
How other countries deal with guns
Honor and Safety for those in the Military and Police
Personal Rights and Safety

These are important points, however, my main issue is not concerned with these ideas, but more about how we are so willing to accept violence as a fact of life. That to survive we must accept that someone has to have lethal weaponry, if not ourselves than some authority must have them. If we accept this, what does it tell our kids? We are powerless, without lethal weaponry?

[PareMesAlt]

Off Topic:

I too lived abroad in Spain for 6 years, where regular Policia Nacional often walked around the cities with large automatic weapons.

It was interesting to note that though they had similar gun control laws to the US, the level of gun related deaths was much lower per capita. It leads me to believe it is cultural differences rather than legal differences that lead to more gun violence.

[UUMom]

Discussing all the points you listed broadens the gun discussion that includes your last point.

Post your thoughts on it.

I am for gun control (Switzerland, ftr, has tight gun control laws...people take their owning seriously and respectfully, fi, and their gun violence rate is low). I am not a libertarian. (Except in the case of vax, homeschooling, land ownership...and more. ) How do you square your belief in no gun control and gun violence in America today?

Does a parent who might forbid any sort of gun anything expect a child to be able to deal rationally with guns in society that he might encounter? Will a child feel shame at his/her curisotiy because he knows he hurts the parent witht his interest? Could that shame keep the child from asking the parent for help if he has encountered a gun? (In an alley, a park, a playmate's home?)

How do you let a child know that the National Guard who comes to your house in a storm (hopefully...) is different from the shoot-to-kill government robot discussed earlier. And how does one help a child to understand that calling 911 in an emergency will (usually) bring police help if your grandfather is having a heart attack...

Is fear and shame- based gun 'education' a valid way to cut down on gun interest/usage?


I'm not a gun person, but these are questions that I ask myself a lot. Having had one little guy who did like those playmobil pirates and their stuff, and who has always been a gentle person and is not as an adult interested in guns, I feel that early weaponry interest is just that...an interest... not a signal that the child will grow to be a raving psycho killer.

I think overreacting, shaming and forbidding is very often a catalyst to a more intense interest. Not always...but I've always been very careful not to impose adutl attitudes and fears on the curiosity of small children.

I would enjoy a non- hysterical (Soldiers are killers!! All cops shoot their guns randomly and often!!) discussion this complicated, multi-facitied issue.

I go back to Swizterland...nearly every male there knows how to use a gun, and owns several, yet they aren't shooting each other. Why is that? What respect to they posess that we in the US might learn from?

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by PareMesAlt

Off Topic:

I too lived abroad in Spain for 6 years, where regular Policia Nacional often walked around the cities with large automatic weapons.

It was interesting to note that though they had similar gun control laws to the US, the level of gun related deaths was much lower per capita. It leads me to believe it is cultural differences rather than legal differences that lead to more gun violence.

And what are those cultural differences? I mean I know they are great...there is no one US culture, either. It's kind of a free for all, wild west. Come make money, lots of it. I have hope that we can get it together, eventually. Fool that I am.

[MtBikeLover]

Originally Posted by mntnmom

Police have guns to protect themselves and others from people who try to hurt them.

This is what I tell my son too. He asks me this question about 5 times a week and I just repeat that police have guns to protect themselves and us in case someone else is trying to hurt us or them. They only use it if they have to.

[taterbug1999]

UUmom,
You make some very good points. As a cops wife, I have to say guns are taught to be respected in our home. Our kids are young (7 and 2) and we of course keep my husbands weapons locked up but they are being taught that they are to never ever touch daddy's guns. My dd who is really the only one of the two old enough to really grasp it simply understands that and has never shown any interest in them at all. I find that with children in almost every issue we have encountered thus far as parents that if you ignore an issue or sensationalize it then you do more harm than good. We simply state the facts that they are for our safety and for daddy's work, but they can be dangerous. We do not hunt but my husband has taught me how to fire his off duty weapon and I would hope someday will teach each of our kids as they mature. I really think that respect of the weapon is a huge key. It is there, it can be dangerous, it can be life saving, it is not for my kids to mess with. If they ever have questions or are curious then that door is always open for whatever they would like to know. Because there is no real enticement I think it is now a non issue for my daughter. Ds is too young to really care.
On a side note my hubbie blew up every kind of army toy you can imagine as a young boy in his back yard and always knew he wanted to be a cop, and we have 3 guns in our home. BUT he is the calmest gentlest guy you'd ever meet. So I don't personally think playing with toy guns or pirates or whatever will be a large determining factor in the adult someone becomes. I like to think that whatever toys my kids choose to play with that my role as a good, kind, loving parent has a much larger long term impact on them. Maybe that is where society (at least US) is taking a downturn. Maybe nomatter what toys they choose off the shelf it is the fact that many of them don't get to come home to moms, dads, anyone who loves them and tries to teach them how to be when they grow up. Anyone?

[mike]

POLICE have guns to protect themselves from bad guys who have guns for the wrong reasons so basicly its to even the odds.

[somasoul]

You actually let your kid play with army men for a whole day?!?!? The kid is destined to become an agent of big brother and eat babies alive!

As an anarchist I shun all forms of violence. However, this doesn't mean that army men are inherently bad. More often then not, bad guys are gonna come around. They have no interest in hearing your side of things, they have no interest in discussing any issues, they have no interest in behaving like civilized men and women. And when those creeps come calling, the only thing in the world that puts a stop to them is weapons and the men (and sometimes women) who rise up against them using weaponry to kill their enemy.

Stalin had no interest in civilized discourse. Neither did Hitler. Pol Pot, less so. The Hutus killed the Tutsies by the thousands for a reason us westerners can't even comprehend. Over the course of human history people have been rounded up and slaughtered like cattle by evil men and the only way to stop them was with guns.

Let your kids play with the army men. It ain't the killing that's problem......it's the "why" and the "who".

[Kavita]

Originally Posted by PareMesAlt

For those of you who are close to police officers. If they encounter a suspected criminal with a weapon, what is their training and what is their instincts? Shoot to kill or shoot to wound?

I brought this up with an upstate friend of mine, and he said most of his police friends will shoot to kill. Though this is not official policy in that county.

I worked in probation and we had gun training and could choose to carry if we wanted to, also have a concealed carry permit.

Technically, you're not shooting to kill per se--you're shooting to STOP the person. The only justification for deadly force is if the person is using a level of force that will result in death or serious bodily harm to you, or to a third party. This was specifically addressed in my training--that if you ever get in court and are asked if you intended to kill, you are not supposed to say that you shot to kill the person, but that you shot to stop the person. This is a subtle but important difference.

If you pull a weapon, it is only because your life or someone else's life is in imminent danger, because the person you are pulling the gun ON has the ability to kill (for example, the other person has a weapon and is threatening someone) and you have seconds to act. If you shoot in that kind of stress situation, from a distance, you are basically aiming for the chest and hoping that you cause enough internal damage that the person bleeds enough to collapse and stop being a threat. Obviously, a lot of the time this person will end up dying as a result of being shot. But if you were in a situation where, for example, you shot somebody and they dropped their weapon and collapsed and stopped being a threat, you are now supposed to call them an ambulance. Not go over and finish them off! So your intent is not to kill--it's to stop.

[Cacapon]

Originally Posted by PareMesAlt

Hey, Hitler was nice to the kids of his circle; does it make him a little good?

: are you serious???

you seem to be caught up in some serious black-and-white thinking.

it is cool that you are against guns and all that, but that is politics. there is a time for politics, and a time to be sensitive to nurtuing the emotional development of a child.

when a kid that age wants to play with guns, it is not about guns and violence and death in the way we think about it. it is about a child trying to master/understand/order/organize/deal with her/his own feellings of anger/aggression/sexuality (yes, i said it!!).

so cutting off the gun tips and painting the tanks to look like fire engines may have served your needs to feel like a suffciently pacifist mother, but your child is still left with those feellings and no way to deal with them.

of course - educate your child about the safety and consequences of gun use. but let that child be a kid and learn and grow and develop through unstructured (and uniterrupted by you!!) play.

[amyb15]

It's hard to explain to the children why force has to be utilized. Some humans just cannot be tamed, so they must be harmed to learn.

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by somasoul

It ain't the killing that's problem......it's the "why" and the "who".

Sorry, I just couldn't let that one go. No, the killing is a problem as well! There's no "why" or "who" that simply makes homicide okay. At the most, it can excuse killing, not make it morally good.
Besides, most of the biggest mass murderers in history killed with what they considered excellent justification.

[amyb15]

That is a good point... justification for mass murders. Our society... gosh

[somasoul]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

Sorry, I just couldn't let that one go. No, the killing is a problem as well! There's no "why" or "who" that simply makes homicide okay. At the most, it can excuse killing, not make it morally good.
Besides, most of the biggest mass murderers in history killed with what they considered excellent justification.

Killing is always bad. But there comes a time when a person must defend himself, or others, with the most extreme applied force.

[karma_momma]

I am a Military Police Officer. This is my first post on my wife's account. I saw this and was shocked at the question.

First off, I have the luxury of being military and police, so I feel I can comment on both ends of this question.

As a member in the United States Military, I am intimidation. Just like the Police on the streets I hope I never have to shoot anyone, EVER. I do not kill because my Government tells me to, I kill those who try to kill me. I do this to keep my family safe at home. If we were to completely back out of all international operations in the world at once, right now. The entire international community would be in chaos. Do you think if we leave Iraq that the problems would stay in Iraq? Nope. I assure they would not. The media paints a nasty picture of President Bush, but his job is to keep us safe right? Ask yourself, when is the last time we had a terrorist attack? He and we have done an incredible job keeping the US and it's interests safe. A little off topic I know. Sorry

A Police Officer carrying a gun. That's easy. I pull someone over for going 60mph in a 25mph zone, (A school zone) where your kids are, and I approach his window and he shoots me. I have the ability to defend myself.
You go to the mall and some crazy puts a gun to your head, do you want me to taser him? Non-lethal weapons are great, I love them personally, they're fun! But, not as effective as putting a 9mm bullett in someone head/chest.

Non-lethal weapons are not 100% and do not normally work on someone high on meth or crack or coke. If I am on patrol and I drive by an ally and it's your child being raped, or mugged; do you want me to have a gun or something non-lethal. It sometimes sickens me when people complain about us carrying weapons, when you need us and we're armed you are safer. Another thing is those who oppose deadly force have something traumatic happen to them and we're not armed, then they say, why couldn't they stop this. Well, ma'am sir, I could maybe have thrown a stick or rock at them. I mean seriously. We're armed for a reason 99% of you out there are awesome to deal with, but it's that 1% that have an assault rifle who start spraying bullets in a mall. Our weapons come in handy huh. I carry a .45 ACP Para Ordnance with me even when in civilian clothing. If I am at a gas station and it is being robbed and the subject points a gun at you or your child. Better believe I will act with deadly force.

If this is crass at all please don't take it out on my wife Have a good day!

[memz]

Originally Posted by karma_momma

I am a Military Police Officer. This is my first post on my wife's account. I saw this and was shocked at the question.

First off, I have the luxury of being military and police, so I feel I can comment on both ends of this question.

As a member in the United States Military, I am intimidation. Just like the Police on the streets I hope I never have to shoot anyone, EVER. I do not kill because my Government tells me to, I kill those who try to kill me. I do this to keep my family safe at home. If we were to completely back out of all international operations in the world at once, right now. The entire international community would be in chaos. Do you think if we leave Iraq that the problems would stay in Iraq? Nope. I assure they would not. The media paints a nasty picture of President Bush, but his job is to keep us safe right? Ask yourself, when is the last time we had a terrorist attack? He and we have done an incredible job keeping the US and it's interests safe. A little off topic I know. Sorry

A Police Officer carrying a gun. That's easy. I pull someone over for going 60mph in a 25mph zone, (A school zone) where your kids are, and I approach his window and he shoots me. I have the ability to defend myself.
You go to the mall and some crazy puts a gun to your head, do you want me to taser him? Non-lethal weapons are great, I love them personally, they're fun! But, not as effective as putting a 9mm bullett in someone head/chest.

Non-lethal weapons are not 100% and do not normally work on someone high on meth or crack or coke. If I am on patrol and I drive by an ally and it's your child being raped, or mugged; do you want me to have a gun or something non-lethal. It sometimes sickens me when people complain about us carrying weapons, when you need us and we're armed you are safer. Another thing is those who oppose deadly force have something traumatic happen to them and we're not armed, then they say, why couldn't they stop this. Well, ma'am sir, I could maybe have thrown a stick or rock at them. I mean seriously. We're armed for a reason 99% of you out there are awesome to deal with, but it's that 1% that have an assault rifle who start spraying bullets in a mall. Our weapons come in handy huh. I carry a .45 ACP Para Ordnance with me even when in civilian clothing. If I am at a gas station and it is being robbed and the subject points a gun at you or your child. Better believe I will act with deadly force.

If this is crass at all please don't take it out on my wife Have a good day!

:

[DragonflyBlue]

Recently we had a gunman at one of our malls. He was walking through randomly shooting people. Five people were killed, numerous other wounded. (can't recall exact number)

An off duty police officer, who was armed was able to help stem the gunman's rampage.

I don't even want to think about how many other people may have been killed had this officer not been there.

This is just one example of why police officers are armed.

Janis

[JBaxter]

Originally Posted by karma_momma

I am a Military Police Officer. This is my first post on my wife's account. I saw this and was shocked at the question.

First off, I have the luxury of being military and police, so I feel I can comment on both ends of this question.

As a member in the United States Military, I am intimidation. Just like the Police on the streets I hope I never have to shoot anyone, EVER. I do not kill because my Government tells me to, I kill those who try to kill me. I do this to keep my family safe at home. If we were to completely back out of all international operations in the world at once, right now. The entire international community would be in chaos. Do you think if we leave Iraq that the problems would stay in Iraq? Nope. I assure they would not. The media paints a nasty picture of President Bush, but his job is to keep us safe right? Ask yourself, when is the last time we had a terrorist attack? He and we have done an incredible job keeping the US and it's interests safe. A little off topic I know. Sorry

A Police Officer carrying a gun. That's easy. I pull someone over for going 60mph in a 25mph zone, (A school zone) where your kids are, and I approach his window and he shoots me. I have the ability to defend myself.
You go to the mall and some crazy puts a gun to your head, do you want me to taser him? Non-lethal weapons are great, I love them personally, they're fun! But, not as effective as putting a 9mm bullett in someone head/chest.

Non-lethal weapons are not 100% and do not normally work on someone high on meth or crack or coke. If I am on patrol and I drive by an ally and it's your child being raped, or mugged; do you want me to have a gun or something non-lethal. It sometimes sickens me when people complain about us carrying weapons, when you need us and we're armed you are safer. Another thing is those who oppose deadly force have something traumatic happen to them and we're not armed, then they say, why couldn't they stop this. Well, ma'am sir, I could maybe have thrown a stick or rock at them. I mean seriously. We're armed for a reason 99% of you out there are awesome to deal with, but it's that 1% that have an assault rifle who start spraying bullets in a mall. Our weapons come in handy huh. I carry a .45 ACP Para Ordnance with me even when in civilian clothing. If I am at a gas station and it is being robbed and the subject points a gun at you or your child. Better believe I will act with deadly force.

If this is crass at all please don't take it out on my wife Have a good day!

Thank you for your service

[Houdini]

Originally Posted by karma_momma

I am a Military Police Officer. This is my first post on my wife's account. I saw this and was shocked at the question.

First off, I have the luxury of being military and police, so I feel I can comment on both ends of this question.

As a member in the United States Military, I am intimidation. Just like the Police on the streets I hope I never have to shoot anyone, EVER. I do not kill because my Government tells me to, I kill those who try to kill me. I do this to keep my family safe at home. If we were to completely back out of all international operations in the world at once, right now. The entire international community would be in chaos. Do you think if we leave Iraq that the problems would stay in Iraq? Nope. I assure they would not. The media paints a nasty picture of President Bush, but his job is to keep us safe right? Ask yourself, when is the last time we had a terrorist attack? He and we have done an incredible job keeping the US and it's interests safe. A little off topic I know. Sorry

A Police Officer carrying a gun. That's easy. I pull someone over for going 60mph in a 25mph zone, (A school zone) where your kids are, and I approach his window and he shoots me. I have the ability to defend myself.
You go to the mall and some crazy puts a gun to your head, do you want me to taser him? Non-lethal weapons are great, I love them personally, they're fun! But, not as effective as putting a 9mm bullett in someone head/chest.

Non-lethal weapons are not 100% and do not normally work on someone high on meth or crack or coke. If I am on patrol and I drive by an ally and it's your child being raped, or mugged; do you want me to have a gun or something non-lethal. It sometimes sickens me when people complain about us carrying weapons, when you need us and we're armed you are safer. Another thing is those who oppose deadly force have something traumatic happen to them and we're not armed, then they say, why couldn't they stop this. Well, ma'am sir, I could maybe have thrown a stick or rock at them. I mean seriously. We're armed for a reason 99% of you out there are awesome to deal with, but it's that 1% that have an assault rifle who start spraying bullets in a mall. Our weapons come in handy huh. I carry a .45 ACP Para Ordnance with me even when in civilian clothing. If I am at a gas station and it is being robbed and the subject points a gun at you or your child. Better believe I will act with deadly force.

If this is crass at all please don't take it out on my wife Have a good day!

:

[anarchamama]

Solidiers and police have guns for the same reason, to enforce the will of the state, and those in control of the state. The question is really just weather a) you agree with the state's right to enforce anything or b) you agree with the existance of the state. Now for those of you who have loved ones who are cops/soldiers there is a whole complicated set of mechanism at play that we could debate. But I am cerytainly NOT going to tell my kids that cops have guns cause they are the good guys and to protect themsleves agaginst bad guys. First becasue it would be a lie, not even an oversiplification. When I was a kids I saw the cops put my dad over the hood of a car and club him for walking a picket line. As an activist trade unionist I see (and my kids see) cops routinely rough people up on picket lines. As an activist I have been ter gassed pepper sprayed and shot and hit at close range with a tear gas cannister (which I might add it is illegal to shoot at people) as a cyclist participating in critical mass I and my kids have seen cops run people of the road, use totally unnessasary pain compliance and pepper spray and arrest to intimidate cyclists. As a person with lots of poor but beligerant friends and family mambers I see the cops intimidate people, look for fights, and abuse their power every day.

Sooooo while this thread is not about the merits or demerits of cops and soldiers it is most certainly not true that the only reasons cops have guns is becuase they are protecting the good guys. They are most certainly protecting somebody, its a matter for debate how "good" those somebodies always are.

Also while I am sure being a cop is a highly unpleasant job at times, it is in fact not an especially dangerous one as jobs go. Dramatic sure, but cops don't have a particularily high workplace mortality rate. At least in canada the most dangerous industries are fishing and trapping, mining, quarrying and oil rigs, logging and forestry, and construction. So make sure that when you use products produced by these industries you tell your kids that workers die becasue the BAD capitalist don't care enough about workers to follow proper safety standards. : : But of course we don't prosecute in those cases, because well those bad guys are ummmm......different. They don't have guns........

Flame away!