Baby Poop

[Aletheia]

NAK

Alright. I've read dif't sites re poop, and find them really unhelpful. Since we're dealing here w/ allergies (dairy, gluten, onions, maybe beans...) I need more help assessing my exclusively breastfed baby's doodoo.

I thought we were in the clear after the TED made such a change in his BM's. They used to be dark foresty green-- big clumps in the midst of lots of green tinged water. Now they are more mustardy in consistency, rarely if ever seedy, and more yellow-orangey than before, but still have a greensh tinge. The main thing is that they have a VERY strong smell-- sweet sourish. Most of what I've read says BF poo is almost scentless.

Just looking to compare notes!

Part of why I'm concerned is that I had a dairy/wheat dessert two nights ago and don't think I've seen much of a change in his BM's.

[JaneS]

Very strong... hmmm... I believe "buttered popcorn" or "curried yogurt" is the preferred scent description.

Are you doing probiotics? It's because BF babe's poo is supposed to be bifidus dominent that makes the smell like yogurt.

Be as suspicious of the sugar in your dessert shifting your own flora too as much as allergies.

[SAmama]

Just wanting to jump in with the poop thread. We also have seen very little normal bm's from the beginning (vaxes, tylenol, gas drops ) and are now dealing with eczema and allergies. Since we eliminated some stuff her poops are less mucousy, so also basically mustard consistency. And I also have noticed a strong sweet, sourish smell with a very faint resemblance to yogurt. She is still getting some allergens through me that we have not figured out, seeing that the eczema hasn't cleared. So, is the funky smell then due to bad flora? And do sugar in a bfing mama's diet then shift her flora and then mess up her babe's flora?

[wendy1221]

We just had a discussion on this at kidswithfoodallergies. THe general consensus is bad acidic smell=reaction. regular baby poop should either smell like poop for baby eating lots of solids or should smell like cheese, yogurt, or buttered popcorn for ebf baby. bad acidic smell means they're reacting to something. hth!

[PapayaVagina]

this is really interesting. i'd been struggling with my dd's bms for quite some time trying to figure out what's going on with them and had given up.

we are dairy and wheat free. she didn't improve being gluten free, i haven't had any soy for quite a while, very rarely eat onions, and she still has never had the "normal" BF baby poop and it reeks!

[Acugirl]

My ds who is ebf and 8 months has mucous in his poops and has had for as long as I can remember. I have tried elim soy, dairy, nuts, wheat, gluten, citrus, tomatoes etc and nothing has changed. They are the right color-bright yellowish, but I cannot get rid of the mucous.
I had him blood tested and he was positive for peanuts (which I am not eating) and potatoes. Even with taking out the potatoes his poop is still full of mucous.
I am at my wits end now!
Your dd sounds like she is getting better-you are so lucky!

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by SAmama

Just wanting to jump in with the poop thread. We also have seen very little normal bm's from the beginning (vaxes, tylenol, gas drops )

Yep. All those things change the gut flora over from bifidus dominent and let bad bacteria grow. Then the infant's leaky gut never closes.

See here for references:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...6&postcount=20

Hilary Butler's article, "The Role Of Vaccines in SIDS" gives a good picture of what happens to gut flora and immune system when babes are vaxed... at www.vaxfacts.com

Originally Posted by SAmama

and are now dealing with eczema and allergies.

Yes again. That is what happens when the immune system is not allowed to develop normally. Babes are not born allergic.

Originally Posted by SAmama

Since we eliminated some stuff her poops are less mucousy, so also basically mustard consistency. And I also have noticed a strong sweet, sourish smell with a very faint resemblance to yogurt. She is still getting some allergens through me that we have not figured out, seeing that the eczema hasn't cleared. So, is the funky smell then due to bad flora?

Yes, funky smell is due to flora being off and food not being digested properly. This is why formula fed poops smell to high heaven... because formula cannot be fully digested. And FF babes have more pathogens in their gut, more allergies, etc. But there is so much to mess up BF babes systems now too!

Originally Posted by SAmama

And do sugar in a bfing mama's diet then shift her flora and then mess up her babe's flora?

It depends on your flora and your digestive system. If you are prone to yeast/bad bacteria in your own gut, you are passing them along to your babe thru BF'ing too. And if your flora was off to being with, yeast/bad bacteria was part of babe's initial colonization. And yes sugar makes it worse. Anything you cannot fully digest will make it worse.

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by PapayaVagina

this is really interesting. i'd been struggling with my dd's bms for quite some time trying to figure out what's going on with them and had given up.

we are dairy and wheat free. she didn't improve being gluten free, i haven't had any soy for quite a while, very rarely eat onions, and she still has never had the "normal" BF baby poop and it reeks!

This is the major problem with seeing everything as an allergy and not recognizing exactly how the gut/immune system develops in the first place.

I wish I knew then what I know now! As I first saw it as allergies, naturopath did too... but that was only half the story! (esp. given our history of antibiotics and thrush while BF.)

I'm trying to get my hands on more specific information about toddlers as gut flora doesn't change over to an adults fully until age 7, but in the meantime my multiple food allergic DS is doing well on a 4 day Rotation Diet with B. Infantis.

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by Acugirl

My ds who is ebf and 8 months has mucous in his poops and has had for as long as I can remember. I have tried elim soy, dairy, nuts, wheat, gluten, citrus, tomatoes etc and nothing has changed. They are the right color-bright yellowish, but I cannot get rid of the mucous.
I had him blood tested and he was positive for peanuts (which I am not eating) and potatoes. Even with taking out the potatoes his poop is still full of mucous.
I am at my wits end now!

Do you or he have signs of thrush? Mucus can be yeast.

What is your hx of interventions at pg/birth?

[SAmama]

Originally Posted by JaneS

This is the major problem with seeing everything as an allergy and not recognizing exactly how the gut/immune system develops in the first place.

I wish I knew then what I know now! As I first saw it as allergies, naturopath did too... but that was only half the story! (esp. given our history of antibiotics and thrush while BF.)

I'm trying to get my hands on more specific information about toddlers as gut flora doesn't change over to an adults fully until age 7, but in the meantime my multiple food allergic DS is doing well on a 4 day Rotation Diet with B. Infantis.

From other posts I have read I know you avoid some of the things ds is allergic to (if I remember right), so there are then still things in his diet now that he reacts/used to react to? Does he handle it well then as long as it is in the rotation diet? Can you see reactions in bm's or skin when he eats these things?

Then, our dd is 9 mos old and has had bites of solids. I know that ebf babes should get only b. infantis. But I thought now that she is doing some solids that some of the other strains would be good? No? Are you not doing any other strains for him than B. infantis?
And then, more about poop, did you see his bm's change for the better after adding the probiotics?

I never, never would have thought that I would be so concerned about the content of a diaper.

[Acugirl]

JaneS, I had no intervention at birth-natural labor and delivery-very fast labor no drugs. DS did get vit k at birth though. and I had Rhogam during pregnancy despite my pleas not too-I KNEW he would be my last, but they insisted I have it.
Yeast has been suggested by his allergy dr. I was on antibiotics back to back when he was 4 months old-for mastatis and a uti.
If it is yeast, what do I do. I don't have obvious yeast symptoms my self but did take GSE for a while.
The allergist wants ds to take nystatin for months, but the amounts he has to take are so large, I have no clue how I would get that all into him.

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by SAmama

From other posts I have read I know you avoid some of the things ds is allergic to (if I remember right), so there are then still things in his diet now that he reacts/used to react to? Does he handle it well then as long as it is in the rotation diet? Can you see reactions in bm's or skin when he eats these things?

Then, our dd is 9 mos old and has had bites of solids. I know that ebf babes should get only b. infantis. But I thought now that she is doing some solids that some of the other strains would be good? No? Are you not doing any other strains for him than B. infantis?
And then, more about poop, did you see his bm's change for the better after adding the probiotics?

I never, never would have thought that I would be so concerned about the content of a diaper.

no kidding!

Yes, nuts are still out. Eggs back in. Apples totally OUT. Rice suspect for now. It's a learning curve!

But many other things he reacted very strongly to in testing he does fine on rotation. No skin/bm reactions now to things he reacted to previously. If he does react strongly now, I'm taking it out. Hence the apples, ooooh, that was bad news when I tried to put them back in this this week! Not so much skin, but bm and behavior.

He has always gotten other strains in yogurt and kefir. But the bifido is helping with constipation issues that started when his chronic diarrhea from food reactions went away. The first week we started bifido, he went 3 HUGE poops in one day, really cleaned him out nicely.

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by Acugirl

JaneS, I had no intervention at birth-natural labor and delivery-very fast labor no drugs. DS did get vit k at birth though. and I had Rhogam during pregnancy despite my pleas not too-I KNEW he would be my last, but they insisted I have it.
Yeast has been suggested by his allergy dr. I was on antibiotics back to back when he was 4 months old-for mastatis and a uti.
If it is yeast, what do I do. I don't have obvious yeast symptoms my self but did take GSE for a while.
The allergist wants ds to take nystatin for months, but the amounts he has to take are so large, I have no clue how I would get that all into him.

My DS did get vit. K too and I wish I knew more about it. Antibiotics/yeast would definitely seem to be the cause to me, did he have mucus issues before your 4 month antibx?

The Rhogam has mercury still? I'm not sure about that. If so, yeast can be suspect with that too.

I wouldn't give him GSE, that kills good bacteria as well as bad. And he's really young for Nystatin? I don't know, I'm just so suspect with putting stuff into our kids which are not supposed to be there.

I would try the intensive probiotics.... bifido for him. You can take too along with acidophilus for you. Personally I found homemade raw milk kefir totally got rid of my thrush while bf'ing. Of course I had to work harder to take care of my other issues.

[Acugirl]

Thanks Jane. I think the rhogam is mercury free, but who really knows.

I agree about the nystatin, and about giving things to our little ones in general, so I am not doing it. I took the gse myself for a bit, didn't give it to him.

I think I am going to just try good probiotics for him and me and fish oil for me to see if that does anything.

Also, I am going to try to cut down on my grains, that is my weakness. Taking out gluten was a huge thing for me, but I have just replaced it with rice and other grains so I am still probably consuming a dispropotionate amount of grain.

am thinking to try coconut milk, but not sure about that one!

[SAmama]

I love coconut milk yogurt! It took some getting used to, but it really isn't bad and easy to make, and you can use your probiotics to culture it and get a lot more good bacteria that way. Also, coconut milk itself in soups and even a little bit on cooked cereals is great.

Jane, do you have that rotation diet posted somewhere? I have been thinking of doing that, but haven't found real good resources yet and it would just help to get a good example. Thanks for being so helpful!

[PapayaVagina]

Originally Posted by JaneS

This is the major problem with seeing everything as an allergy and not recognizing exactly how the gut/immune system develops in the first place.

I wish I knew then what I know now! As I first saw it as allergies, naturopath did too... but that was only half the story! (esp. given our history of antibiotics and thrush while BF.)

I'm trying to get my hands on more specific information about toddlers as gut flora doesn't change over to an adults fully until age 7, but in the meantime my multiple food allergic DS is doing well on a 4 day Rotation Diet with B. Infantis.

Ok Jane...wondering about your opinion. Like I mentioned before, I've been off of dairy and wheat because when I consumed those I could pretty quickly noticed a reaction in dd. I've been studying the Healing the Gut group along with many of the other links. We just started some probiotics (both of us) along with CLO, kombuchi and kefir, and cut out all sugar. Was curious what your opinion was RE whether you can continue to eat foods that seemed to be a problem before or not. I've been seeing differing opinions on that. After we've been taking these things for a while I'm curious about possibly having a little bit of wheat to see how dd does (will probably wait until she is at least 6 months old first though). My worry is obviously causing more irritation and setting her up for lifelong allergy....but if I'm understanding it correctly it seems that the opinion is that it's not an allergy/sensitivity, it's all the leaky gut and once that is fixed it's ok?

[wendy1221]

I firmly believe you should stay away from things that irritate until you are sure you're healed enough to handle them. I'm pretty sure Jane feels the same way.

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by SAmama

Jane, do you have that rotation diet posted somewhere? I have been thinking of doing that, but haven't found real good resources yet and it would just help to get a good example. Thanks for being so helpful!

Not yet, thanks for reminding me actually! I need to put the one we follow (from our holistic dietician) in HTG sticky as soon as I can finish typing it out. Go into the thread and subscribe to it and you will be notified when I add to it.

[JaneS]

Originally Posted by PapayaVagina

Ok Jane...wondering about your opinion. Like I mentioned before, I've been off of dairy and wheat because when I consumed those I could pretty quickly noticed a reaction in dd. I've been studying the Healing the Gut group along with many of the other links. We just started some probiotics (both of us) along with CLO, kombuchi and kefir, and cut out all sugar. Was curious what your opinion was RE whether you can continue to eat foods that seemed to be a problem before or not. I've been seeing differing opinions on that. After we've been taking these things for a while I'm curious about possibly having a little bit of wheat to see how dd does (will probably wait until she is at least 6 months old first though). My worry is obviously causing more irritation and setting her up for lifelong allergy....but if I'm understanding it correctly it seems that the opinion is that it's not an allergy/sensitivity, it's all the leaky gut and once that is fixed it's ok?

Not really... the leaky gut is what leads to allergies. But yes, if you fix the leaky gut your allergies can improve in the sense that 1) your food is now being broken down properly and whole proteins are no longer antagonizing the immune system; and 2) the holes in the gut close and do not allow particles through which should not be in the bloodstream for immune system to react to.

The thing is with a babe, their immune system is just beginning to recognize self vs. non-self. As I understand it, leaky gut will be that much more likely to result in food allergies because their already skewed immune system is being bombarded with foreign proteins. Anywhere from 3 months to a year should be waited to try things again when a reaction is noted.

Whether its an allergy you are dealing with or not or just an intolerance due to insufficient digestion, it's hard to say. I would never say to eat anything you notice reactions to. Whatever you cannot digest does do damage. So perhaps just watch her closely.

With wheat, make sure it's the best form: sourdough, soaked or sprouted grains to break down the proteins. There has actually been a small study suggesting celiacs can tolerate wheat in this traditional form. Which is NOT to say a celiac should go out and eat soaked wheat with abandon, just that our food prep methods in this society may have been a factor in our digestive problems...and if you are reintroducing wheat (or dairy for that manner) it might be prudent to learn about more easily digestible forms and why that is so (raw milk for ex.)

With us, DS *has* to eat foods he has tested allergic to, simply b/c he couldn't exist on the 8 foods only he has tested negative to (especially since one, soy, I would never give him ). So that is why we put him on a 4 day rotation in consultation with Ped and Dietician. However, any food I notice a physical reaction to gets taken out completely. He tested negative to pears and strawberries but couldn't handle raw versions until gut inflammation had healed a bit, so he only got cooked for a while.

[AutumnMama]

I'm so glad I found this thread!

I posted THIS in H&H, but haven't really gotten any responses on it...maybe someone here can look at it?

Basically, DS is having clay-like poops, smell icky, and are fairly infrequent.
He had really nasty smelling gas till I cut out all dairy, but he's still having that clay poop.

He's 5 1/2 months old, and people are already asking me about starting solids (not that that really matters), but I really really want to heal whatever's going on before I introduce solids into his little system.

I'll still be doing more thread searching, but if anyone has any insight as to what the issue could be I'd be so grateful to hear it!

TIA