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And it happened to me. Update on post 96 - Page 5

post #81 of 192
Without knowing the people but having experienced gossipy behaviour like that before, I can only imagine that the reason why the bishop sent the woman to discuss it with you is becuase he probably could care less, but since it was bothering her, he figured he'd let the two of you work it out. If she said that ten other women were upset, it was probably only really 5. Those five were probably egged on by her instigation. And finally, and most importantly, the 200 members that support your bf'ing didn't need to say anything to anyone because, well, they didn't neet to!
I betcha you've got a lot more support than you could imagine, but even if for some reason you don't, you certainly have us!!!
I always find it difficult to be witty, calm, and educating when I'm put on the spot. I hope you are able to really plan out how you want to handle it so you can feel as if you've enriched and educated those around you. That's what motherhood is all about!
post #82 of 192
Someone needs to have a long talk with those young men(and probably a few married ones)about controlling lustful thoughts!! It's the responsibility of parents and the church to teach children how to live in the world.
Like they won't see much worse walking down the street in the summer!
Atleast with you nursing they are seeing breasts in the context in which GOD intended they be used!!!
post #83 of 192
I'm so sorry this is happening to you. I BF my two year old openly in church as do several other women (their own kiddos, not mine ), and no one has said a word. In Utah it would be against the law, frankly, for the Church to tell us we couldn't. I think that you should wait until your meeting with the Bishop before assuming he sent the RS president. And if he did send her, I would ask him if he is "asking" you to stop niping, or if he is "telling" you. If he is asking, tell him you appreciate his concern, but you will have to decline. If he is telling you to stop, take your grievance up the chain of command. A friend of mine was in a similar situation and ended up writing the First Presidency who responded that how and if a woman nursed was between she and her husband. Additionally, they had a member of the Seventy come to give a fireside (meeting) and had a Q&A afterwards. She asked him what he thought of BFing in Sacrament Meeting, and he said that his wife had five kids and she nursed them all in Sacrament Meeting.

I will try to find the quote in church materials that says that Bfing is not lewd or indecent. I go off to search...

Hey, where in Idaho are you? I'll be there this next weekend.
post #84 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtwice View Post
I believe that in those days, children fed from goat milk or other non-human-milk substitutes existed, but were far less likely to survive infancy and early childhood than breastfed children.
How would they have drank the animal milk? Bottles didn't exist...small infants wouldn't have been able to drink from a cup...surely finger feeding wouldn't be enough? Or maybe it would. I'm not sure, but it's definitely interesting.

To the OP: Although I'm completely outraged that this happened to you, I was not surprised reading it. I was raised in a Southern Baptist church before I left that path to create one of my own. Infants were not only mostly formula fed, they were not even allowed in church during the sermon! The mothers would get stares of death if their infants even cooed or giggled. :

You're in my thoughts and prayers, and I'll be thinking of you this Sunday.
post #85 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by eiretamicha View Post
How would they have drank the animal milk? Bottles didn't exist...small infants wouldn't have been able to drink from a cup...surely finger feeding wouldn't be enough? Or maybe it would. I'm not sure, but it's definitely interesting.
Here is one link.
(Warning #1: contains a picture an ancient mummy of an infant.
Warning #2: to new moms, the feeding advice here at this website is not necessarily accurate!)
http://www.babybottle-museum.co.uk/t...%20feeders.htm

Elsewhere on that website one article says
"Evidence shows us that thousands of years ago many babies were artificially fed from a variety of bottles, feeding cups and other utensils, often with disastrous consequences."
post #86 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Momtwice View Post
Here is one link.
(Warning #1: contains a picture an ancient mummy of an infant.
Warning #2: to new moms, the feeding advice here at this website is not necessarily accurate!)
http://www.babybottle-museum.co.uk/t...%20feeders.htm

Elsewhere on that website one article says
"Evidence shows us that thousands of years ago many babies were artificially fed from a variety of bottles, feeding cups and other utensils, often with disastrous consequences."
That's very interesting! Thanks for the link!
post #87 of 192
Thread Starter 
Ok - here is my agenda for the meeting tonight (bumped up because he will be out of town on Sunday).

-Sketch of the conversation between the "cookie lady" and me. Stress that my nursing was called pornography, that it is absolutely not and that this problem is not mine, but those that are taking issue with my nursing.
-Ask him if he is in agreement with her.
-Offer these three options:
*use this as opportunity to educate him and ward with correct information on breastfeeding
*move our membership to a different ward (only if the ward we are currently in can't seem to get their collective heads out of their a$$!)
*set up a meeting with the stake president (one higher up than the bishop) to resolve this issue.

Sound good? I have lots of research and info (thanks to everyone here : ) which I will gladly pull out if he opts for the first option.
post #88 of 192
I'm not a pro lactivist, but I think that sounds good. It looks like you're well prepared, I hope this guy isn't as anti-nip as he sounds, and that everything goes well tonight!

post #89 of 192
Sounds good to me! Hope the Bishop is on your side!
post #90 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuansprincess View Post
Ok - here is my agenda for the meeting tonight (bumped up because he will be out of town on Sunday).

-Sketch of the conversation between the "cookie lady" and me. Stress that my nursing was called pornography, that it is absolutely not and that this problem is not mine, but those that are taking issue with my nursing.
-Ask him if he is in agreement with her.
-Offer these three options:
*use this as opportunity to educate him and ward with correct information on breastfeeding
*move our membership to a different ward (only if the ward we are currently in can't seem to get their collective heads out of their a$$!)
*set up a meeting with the stake president (one higher up than the bishop) to resolve this issue.

Sound good? I have lots of research and info (thanks to everyone here : ) which I will gladly pull out if he opts for the first option.
OK, this is how DH reacted when I told him. I think it might be useful for you.

"The bishop got complaints and went through the RS to Tuansprincess? What he should have done is said to the women complaining "I hear your concerns" - and then showed up in RS the next Sunday talking about how bfeeding is normal, not dirty, and the women there need to support each other and teach their children correct ideas about the human body. And then he should have set up a youth fireside about the human body/sexuality/moreality and had each of the PARENTS of the youth teach a different section. If this RS that came to you really is so pro-bfeeding, she should be the one to handle the bfeeding section."

So there's one Mormon DH's view on how it optimally should have been handled.

I think you should first ask the bishop if he sent the RS pres to your house to discuss complaints he'd received about your bfeeding. If not, tell him he needs to know that that was what you were told.

If so, tell him...well, you know. But seriously, as your shepherd, he seriously should have come straight to you. Just being uncomfortable is no reason to humiliate you in that way.

If he backs down and apologizes but tries to leave it at that, you may be in for a rough ride in the church. He really should have addressed some underlying issues with the RS right after this happened: gossiping and bfeeding being ok. The fact that he told these women he'd take care of it and that did not include any addressing of THEIR issues is a serious problem - and is one of the things so frustrating about Mormon 'clergy' not having any training. He's probably a businessman who really had no idea and was simply embarrassed.

If I were you I'd suggest a youth informational fireside - and get his agreement that your RS president, being so pro-bfeeding will help. She needs to back you up in public, not privately sympathizing with you with a plate of cookies while asking you to hide your mothering. Pshaw.

I'd save asking to move out of the ward until the end, if it becomes obvious he's not willing to help. That's harder than it seems.

I like the idea of going up the ladder if he's not helpful - you should have no problem getting satisfaction not too far up.
post #91 of 192
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niamh View Post
"The bishop got complaints and went through the RS to Tuansprincess? What he should have done is said to the women complaining "I hear your concerns" - and then showed up in RS the next Sunday talking about how bfeeding is normal, not dirty, and the women there need to support each other and teach their children correct ideas about the human body. And then he should have set up a youth fireside about the human body/sexuality/moreality and had each of the PARENTS of the youth teach a different section. If this RS that came to you really is so pro-bfeeding, she should be the one to handle the bfeeding section."

Awesome idea! I hadn't really come up with anything other than me giving a candid and informed talk in sac meeting.

So there's one Mormon DH's view on how it optimally should have been handled.

I think you should first ask the bishop if he sent the RS pres to your house to discuss complaints he'd received about your bfeeding. If not, tell him he needs to know that that was what you were told.

I think I'll ask that right off. Because I was so sure he didm and now I'm not so sure

If so, tell him...well, you know. But seriously, as your shepherd, he seriously should have come straight to you. Just being uncomfortable is no reason to humiliate you in that way.

If he backs down and apologizes but tries to leave it at that, you may be in for a rough ride in the church. He really should have addressed some underlying issues with the RS right after this happened: gossiping and bfeeding being ok. The fact that he told these women he'd take care of it and that did not include any addressing of THEIR issues is a serious problem - and is one of the things so frustrating about Mormon 'clergy' not having any training. He's probably a businessman who really had no idea and was simply embarrassed.

:

If I were you I'd suggest a youth informational fireside - and get his agreement that your RS president, being so pro-bfeeding will help. She needs to back you up in public, not privately sympathizing with you with a plate of cookies while asking you to hide your mothering. Pshaw.

I'd save asking to move out of the ward until the end, if it becomes obvious he's not willing to help. That's harder than it seems.

yeah, especially in an area where the wrd boundaries are so small.

I like the idea of going up the ladder if he's not helpful - you should have no problem getting satisfaction not too far up.
:

Thanks everyone for the feedback.
post #92 of 192

Be in the world and not of it

I have to admit that I am not up on my biblical scripture, but isn't that part of the idea of being a Christian. We live in a world of "sin" and "corruption," where breasts are seen as sexual items and their true purpose is ignored. As Christians, our job is to rise above that. God made your breasts to nourish and comfort your child. Maybe those that take offense and the bishop could be reminded that it is their responsibility to rise above society's definition of the breast.
post #93 of 192
Just bumping to see how things went this evening
post #94 of 192
Any news yet?
post #95 of 192
just peekin' in...
post #96 of 192
Thread Starter 
Well friends - the news is not very good. *sigh*

My bishop did indeed send the RS pres to my home. I'm not exactly sure how to re-cap the evening, but I made a list of things we agreed on and things we disagreed on.

Agree:
*Nursing is not pornagraphy
*This issue is not entirely mine

We disagree on:
*He (and the stake pres agrees) feels that nursing in Sacrament Meeting is only appropriate with a blanket.
*He feels that any incidental flash of skin resulting from my nursing will/could be a 'trigger' for a man dealing with pornagraphy issues. Sort of like dangling a ciggy in front of a recent quitter. What about ppl with foot (or other oft exposed body parts) fetishes? No one is being asked to keep their feet covered all of the time.
*When pressed, he found that the only solution in this issue in for me to use a blanket to "cover myself" while I nurse in mixed company - RS is not an issue.
*It is obvious that to him my refusal to use a blanket (while reiterating my efforts to always be as discreet as possible) clearly shows a lack of respect/understanding/cooperation/considration/compromise on my part
*He asserts that there are two ways to nurse - in the mother's lounge and "covered" (using a blanket). The third would be "uncovered" (his term).
*He and the rest of the ward can't possibly be the only ones with this negative and uncomfortable attitude towards nip. It's everywhere. (It is NOT in Oklahoma where I lived until just recently!)
*I assert that attitudes towards nip have indeed changed in the past 20
years
*He does not consider the normalizing of nip and breastfeeding in general to be a positive change.
*I CAN make a difference even though I am only one!

To sum up: He cannot force me to use a blanket, but pretty much threatened further action (I don't think that at this point he even knows what he would do) if I continue as I have been and later he recieves a tip that an individual he is specifically working with on porn/infidelity issues has been negatively "affected" by my nursing "uncovered". It seems to be an issue of exposed skin. If I nurse in the mother's lounge the odds that they might see any flesh are 100:1. If I nurse among them but using a blanket, the odds of maybe seeing flesh are then 50:1. Finally, if I nurse among them discreetly but without a blanket, the odds are suddenly 15:1 in favor of a peep show. These are apparently odd they are uncomfortable with facing.

I feel so sad. It is a sadness tinged with fear. I am afraid of being alone, and right now I feel very alone. I will never feel the same comfort and security at church that I have in the past. I will, of course, continue on as I have been. Thank you all for your incredible support. You don't know how happy and loved I felt when I read that you were checking in for an update. (How pathetic is that )
post #97 of 192
I am so, so sorry this is happening to you. FWIW, I don't think he has any "further action" he can legitimately do. The Church (as a whole) will never have a statement against NIPing because 1) we are a worldwide church and exist in areas were NIPing is normal and accepted, and 2) there are states in the US where it is illegal to tell a woman she can't nurse in church whether covered or uncovered and since we believe in obeying the law of the land, they won't violate this law. I'm sorry you are going to feel less comfortable now, but am proud of how you didn't back down. I was thinking about this earlier, and if I were in your shoes, I would have a really hard time staying at that particular ward because of this.

ETA: and shame on him for not having the guts to talk to you about this himself. When it is a matter that would affect your church standing, he is really the only appropriate person to talk to you about it. And you know what? What happened to people being accountable for their own actions? You don't 'cause' someone to become addicted to pornography. They can only do that to themselves, and blaming others just gives them an excuse for their addictions.
post #98 of 192
Oh sweetie... I'm so sorry it went badly. I'd keep going to the next higher up in the chain (area authority? mission pres? I'm not sure how it works, I'll ask my DH who probably knows). Or even arrange a meeting with your stake president, perhaps he's not completely on the bishop's side, but the bishop insinuated he was.

This isn't right. Stay strong and keep your chin up. They're just people and just because they're leadership doesn't mean they're always right all the time.

I wish you were in a ward like mine. I was NIP w/o a blanket in church and was going to be singing a musical number later in sacrament meeting. It wasn't clearly relayed to the bishopric and basically all attention was on me while I was NIP in church. Nobody said anything about my nursing baby, plenty of people said things about my musical number. I NIP in sacrament meeting because I'm the chorister and I can't be going in and out all the time. (((HUGS))) to you mama!
post #99 of 192
I just have to say, I am so sorry. I didn't see this post before. :-(

One wonders how many people in that church have porn issues and whether breastfeeding is really the problem here, but anyway.

One suggestion... could you ask whether nursing in the front row would also be a problem? Nobody would see that, after all, being behind you, except the members of the choir and the bishop himself. Refusing would be tantamount to admitting that he himself had a problem with pornography. If he did, God be with him, and I'd personally have a bit more sympathy, at least he admits it. But I'll give you a gazillion-to-one odds that he doesn't say anything like that.

Yes, it's wrong to tempt others, but then why do we serve wine at communion? Are there that many more porn addicts than recovering alcoholics? Does the church have a special group for these men suffering from addiction to pornography? What about child pornography- has the church addressed this (because if people are worried about your breasts because of pornography, they need to know that soft-core porn leads quickly to hard-core, some of which incorporates church iconography as well as children, so this is all a very worrying prospect)?

I am so impressed by your willingness to go to the bishop with this. It's SO HARD to talk with people who you know in advance are probably not going to really listen... people who abuse their authority trying to make others feel like they need to obey by fitting in. I admire you- keep on truckin'!
post #100 of 192
Quote:
Originally Posted by izobelle View Post
<snip>

I am so impressed by your willingness to go to the bishop with this. It's SO HARD to talk with people who you know in advance are probably not going to really listen... people who abuse their authority trying to make others feel like they need to obey by fitting in. I admire you- keep on truckin'!

ITA! (And I would take the time to write it in my own words if I weren't so darn tired!)

Mama, you are doing a good thing!
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