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Vegetarian with a dog- best dog food? - Page 3

post #41 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by christyb View Post
Hanno, met Lola - she flat out refuses vegetables and fruit!! When we first got her I fed her a mix of fruits, vegetables, Wysong kibble and cooked meat. I could hand her a whole apple for a snack and she would eat it. She ate raw broccoli, carrots, bananas etc... After about 3 weeks I changed her diet to a raw prey model diet. I started having to grind the fruits and veggies in order for her to eat them and she would only eat them before I gave her the meat, if I served together or after meat she was not going to eat them! Then I had 2 foster dogs at once and I could not make the veggie mush for a couple of months. I made it again and she flat out refused it. If you give her an apple to eat she will roll it around like a ball but she won't eat it!
What does that prove? That you weaned her off of veggies? That's you're choice.
The only REAL thing I'm campaigning for here is a little respect. I respect that each family does things in the way that is best for them and I hope that I can get that from others, whether or not they happen to agree. There are bigger mountains to climb in terms of animal rights, so until every single critter is in a responsible and loving environment, I'm not going to criticise anyone's feeding habits.

Here's just one thing that really matters to me: Every morning at around 4 when my husband comes home from work our young cat leads him to the bedroom tells him to lie down next to me in bed. The dog then asks permission to come up too and she gets in between my husband and I. Then all three of us are completely slathered with affection from the kitten (okay, he's nearly 2). He nuzzles and kisses me, my husband and the dog alternately while purring like the dickens. This goes on for about 20 minutes until he thinks we are asleep and hegets off the bed to go back to his bed. The dog then goes back to her bed and I get a few more hours sleep. Life with critters can be so beautiful and rewarding.....
post #42 of 102
Hanno, I was responding to you writing that you had never met a dog that didn't eat veggies, etc... and so I was introducing you to my dog Lola! Certainly no disrespect intended!!

For what it's worth I didn't wean her off of them, it wasn't my choice (I spent good money on those organic selections, plus the time of driving to get them and to grind them and the gas money!!) she refused to eat them on her own.

Using the logic that a human can wean a dog off of something could be applied to those that have carnivores that won't eat meat - their owners weaned them off of it.

Pointing out that scientifically gray wolves and dogs are the SAME is not a criticism of how anyone chooses to feed their dog. Just because my dog is happy does not mean that I am doing everything right - its a constant examination in life to see if I can learn more, know better and do better.
post #43 of 102
Hanno, nobody's going to come in and take your dog or cat away; it's obvious that you love them. But yes, I will go pretty far to say that it's not "just as good," or a totally acceptable alternate choice, to feed a dog an all-vegetable diet. I'll ALSO go pretty far to say that meat-based kibble isn't a totally acceptable diet either! It's not about respect or lack thereof; it's about biological fact and because I feel so strongly that our responsibility to our dogs extends to what we put in their bodies.
post #44 of 102
Tell Lola I said hi!

Quote:
Originally Posted by christyb View Post
Using the logic that a human can wean a dog off of something could be applied to those that have carnivores that won't eat meat - their owners weaned them off of it.
True and I really do admit that, with the dog, I just don't give her meat and she just doesn't notice. I have not yet figured out how do get a cat to do anything I want them to so it wasn't a matter of weaning for them. The 18 year old cat that I live with (he's my in-law's) has been offered veggie food a couple of times and he just looks intrigued because it smells good, confused and then insulted and then leads me to the fridge to get him some canned meat food. Of course, cats have figured out how to get me to do what they want me to, so I oblige every time
post #45 of 102
One of the big things that sold raw prey model for me was the evidence that dogs are geneticly wolves. The science pretty simple. The definition of a biological species is biological isolation. Meaning that a human can't interbreed with a chimp and produce fertile offspring. There are cases of animals being able to produce ofspring from two different species, but those offspring themselves are infertile. Mules (horses/donkeys) and Ligers (Lion/Tigers) would be examples of of that. As you can see from the other post about wolf hybrids, wolves and dogs can easily interbreed and thier offspring can interbreed as well. The primary differences are cosmetic and juvinilized behavoir. Also there are wild dogs such as the carolina dog in america and the dingo in australia that still live in wild packs hunting for all thier own food.

I think the difference between a biologically apropriate raw diet and a vegan kibble, is the same as the difference between breastfeeding and soy formula. One is the diet that the animal or babys body has been designed to thrive on by millions of years of evolution. Also there is more to the feeding than pure nutrition. There is the fufilling of psycological drives and instincts and the impact on dental health to consider. As humans we are adept at makeing sophisticated substitutes for all kinds of things. But the quality of those substitutes are allways limited by our understanding of our world. There are always things we havn't considered. Every day we find out about things that our vital for our health that we aren't getting anymore because we isolate everything.

I just wanted to add to the stories of animals eating wacky stuff. I had a bunny who loved dog food. She would do everything she could to get into thier food. I would say that she even preffered it to her own pellets. It started with just the kibble, but a few times I caught her trying to sample the canned stuff too. By some of the arguments in this thread, that would make her omni too. We have to remember that human created foods with all thier processing trick our animals into eating things that aren't meant to be in thier diets anymore than high fructose corn syrup is meant to be in ours.
post #46 of 102
I like the Solid Gold line of dog kibble: http://solidgoldhealth.com/
Their Holistique kibble has fish based protein.

Not to gross anyone out, but the main vegetable sources in a wolf's diet are the partially digested stomach contents of their prey. I agree they do eat some sweet things, like melons or berries, but that's in the line of an occasional treat. While wolves do prey on large animals, the main thing they eat is small mammmals & birds, fur, feathers, bones, gut & all. Since my dogs are generally working dogs out in large pastures, rather than house pets, I see what they eat when given the opportunity - they live w/a flock of sheep & goats, as well as chickens. Besides the kibble & scraps I supply, they eat: rabbits, squirrels, mice, voles, gophers, lizards, snakes, quail, starlings, sparrows, rats, sheep & poultry manure, eggs, milk (when I've got a ewe I'm milking), sheep placentas, a little grass, & ripe watermelons (they don't bother anything else in the garden, just the watermelons). As an aside, if they kill another predator, they don't eat it (racoons, fox, skunks, bobcat).
post #47 of 102
I worked in an office with many vegetarian dogs for several years. I think most people used Evolution, Natural Life, or Wysong, and then V-Dog (which just became available in the US).

There's an interesting book about the vegetarian pet issue, called "Obligate Carnivore" by Jed Gillen. I don't agree with all of it (I feed my cats meat) but it makes a strong argument about how the insistance that dogs and cats must eat meat has a lot of flaws.

If I had a dog, he or she would be vegetarian, unless that diet proved to be unhealthy for them.
post #48 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by hanno View Post
I have 2 healthy and happy vegan cats and one healthy and happy vegan dog. If fact, the cats' health has actually improved since they've been vegan. The dog's has improved too, but I'm sure that has more to do with being rescued and getting medical care and fed at all. I strongly feel that we ought to support what works best for each individual family and not tout was works best for ours as the be-all-end-all for everyone. There are many practices regarding pets that others here do that I am very directly opposed to, but I am not part of those families and all I can say is what works and doesn't work for MY family.
I have to STRONGLY disagree with pretty much everything you have posted. Dogs and cats need alot of protein from meat. Sure it's possible to feed a meat-free diet, but guaranteed, your pets will end up with glucose intolerance issues not to mention other illnesses and/or ailments from malnutrition, over time. Taurine, an amino acid is ONLY found in meat, and taurine is an ESSENTIAL nutrient for dogs and cats. Their immune systems require meat protein, and plenty of it, to remain healthy; and cats require alot more meat protein than dogs.

It's inhumane to force an animal to eat food that its body cannot digest very well. Carnivores have short intestinal tracts that are designed to disgest meat and fat, not the long intestinal tracts that you see in grazing animals. Carnivores have sharp pointy teeth designed to rip and tear meat. They don't grind their food.

What's good for you and for your human family, is NOT good for dogs and cats. Maybe you should re-think owning carnivores and get a rabbit instead. A rabbit would be more in keeping with your lifestyle.
post #49 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaydee View Post
but it makes a strong argument about how the insistance that dogs and cats must eat meat has a lot of flaws.
What flaws? As I said in my previous post, dogs and cats are carnivores. Carnivores NEED meat to be healthy and to maintain their immune systems, nervous systems, and healthy hearts.

Quote:
If I had a dog, he or she would be vegetarian, unless that diet proved to be unhealthy for them.
It has been proven. No one should have to tell you that dogs and cats need meat. Just look at their teeth! Dogs and cats don't even have the necessary enzymes required to digest vast amounts of vegetable matter.

Vegetarian diets are unhealthy for carnivores, just like forcing a cow to eat meat would be unhealthy for it. There are a few studies that have been done on vegetarian dogs, and they were NOT healthy. As a matter of fact, some of them died. I'm going to try and find the studies and post a link.

Some people have a hard time separating their human needs and desires from those of animals. If you're a vegetarian or a eat a vegan diet, and have trouble handling meat in any way, please get a pet that doesn't require a high protein diet.
post #50 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manena View Post
I have to STRONGLY disagree with pretty much everything you have posted.

Okay...I'll just ditch my critters based on the advice of some stranger on the internet
Seriously, you can't disagree with their health status because you are have not even met them, and you haven't been around them. You haven't seen the improved energy levels, demeanor and weight of my (used to be) cranky and obese cat. You are not their vet or their caretaker. You cannot make guarantees on my animals any more than I can make guarantee on yours.
I am done arguing with people here who refuse to respect anyone's lifestyle that differs from their own 'opinion' of what is best.
post #51 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by christyb View Post
You will be handling meat everyday - kibble does have meat in it (sub-par meat, diseased meat, cancerous tissue, euthanized shelter animals, etc...). As far as animal rights go, regardless of what we eat it is our responsibility to feed an animal in our care a species appropriate diet, it is your dog's right to be fed a carnivore diet since he is a carnivore - he doesn't have a choice.

I know that this can be a tough issue for vegetarians/vegans however, I have met quite a few that put their beliefs aside to feed their animals appropriately.

I would suggest joining the Yahoo group: rawfeeding
There are quite a few vegetarians on there that can help you and probably guide you more specifically since they share your core beliefs.

Good Luck!
dogs are omnivores. cats ARE carnivores
post #52 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by edamommy View Post
dogs are omnivores. cats ARE carnivores

As much as I hate to resurrect the resentment in this thread, no. Dogs are carnivores. Omnivores have obvious differences in teeth, digestive system, endocrine system, and behavior. Dogs exhibit none of these. They are carnivores.
post #53 of 102
Quote:
I am done arguing with people here who refuse to respect anyone's lifestyle that differs from their own 'opinion' of what is best.
You can’t demand someone to respect the way you care for your pets. I have no bone to pick with you or your family’s lifestyle, but I do think YOU should RESPECT Mother Nature, and respecting Nature, means feeding your pets a diet that is biologically appropriate for them.

Most likely your dog will survive (not thrive) on a vegan diet, but your cat sure as hell won’t. Your cat WILL suffer, no matter how much cuddling and cooing you give it. Contrary to what you might think, you cannot change a cat’s “constitution” by trying to turn it into a vegetarian. Cats are obligate carnivores, they need animal protein, and feeding them a vegan diet constitutes animal cruelty.

If you genuinely care about your dog and cat, RESPECT their biochemistry and feed them accordingly.

Quote:
dogs are omnivores.
Kimball is right. Dogs are members of the order Carnivora. They are facultative carnivores, more like felines than humans, but not as strictly carnivorous as cats.
post #54 of 102
You really don't have to jump all over her about it or accuse her of disrespect.

Dogs are carnivores, but how many dogs kept as pets actually eat meat? There are brands of vegetarian dog food that has everything a dog needs. Most of us feed our dogs kibble, and there are vegetarian kibbles. I haven't seen any vegetarian catfood, but...again, there are many brands of dry cat food. Cats these days don't exactly eat meat either. In the end it's about getting the nutrition one needs, not eating meat or vegetables specifically. There's even organic dry pet food out there. It's not meat. Most dogs don't eat meat. Some people do feed their pets meat, but no one is suggesting a diet of broccoli and carrots.
post #55 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post
You really don't have to jump all over her about it or accuse her of disrespect.
Spare me. I didn't jump all over Hanno. She brought up the subject of "respect" and trounced off when I disagreed with her. Hanno was peeved that I told her that it's NOT okay to feed her pets (especially her cat) a lousy diet. And I don't have to see her cat to know it's malnourished.

I've learned that some people here are SO enthralled by their own opinions and their demands to be respected, that they will tattle to the moderators and have posts removed that don't coincide with their personal beliefs and lifestyles. I fully expect Hanno will do her utmost to silence my opinions on this subject.

Quote:
Dogs are carnivores, but how many dogs kept as pets actually eat meat?
I don't know what planet you live on, but most dogs, eat meat.

Quote:
Cats these days don't exactly eat meat either.
Cite.

Tell me, what do the vast majority of cats eat? What should they eat? Cucumbers? Bean sprouts? Tofu smoothies?
post #56 of 102
I'll put aside for a moment the very logical argument that dogs and cats should eat the foods thier bodies have evolved to eat. But I would like to examine the actual contents of these vegetarian pet foods. On another thread stated in the veg*n forums the brand most recomended was Natural Balance's Vegetarian Allergy formula. Please note that this food is intended for dogs who are allergic to just about everything under the sun, not as an option for dogs with vegetarian owners. Since it is soy free, corn free, and meat free that doesn't leave much else. Here are the ingredients:

Ground brown rice, oatmeal, pearled barley, potato protein, canola oil, carrots, dicalcium phosphate, calcium carbonate, peas, natural vegetable flavor, tomato pomace, flaxseed meal, rosemary extract, choline chloride, potassium chloride, parsley flakes, dried kelp, sodium chloride, yucca schidigera extract, lecithin, yeast culture, onion powder, garlic powder, lactobacillus acidophilus, zinc proteinate, ferrous sulfate, vitamin E supplement, vitamin B12 supplement, ascorbic acid (vitamin C), taurine, l-lysine, manganese sulfate, niacin, riboflavin (vitamin B2), copper proteinate, grapeseed oil, copper sulfate, d-calcium pantothenate, vitamin A acetate, inositol, folic acid, pyridoxine hydrochloride (vitamin B6), thiamine mononitrate (vitamin B1), vitamin D2, biotin, ethylenediamine dihydriodide (source of iodine), cobalt sulfate, menadione sodium bisulfate complex (source of vitamin K activity), sodium selenite.

Not one of the main ingredients has any kind of adequate protien. While this food manages to make the AAFCO standards for crude protien, anyone who knows anything about those standards knows that doesn't mean anything. Crude protien levels don't equate to available protien at all. A dog food manufaturer can fill a food with old shoe leather and it would still meet acceptable crude protien levels. This diet is the equivilent of eating bread and water everyday and just throwing a multi on top. I don't know of any vegans who would advocate that kind of diet for themselves or the rest of thier families. I don't understand how people who care about animals and treat them as part of thier family can look at the above list of ingredients and say that it is a great diet for an animal that is so clearly carnivorous.
post #57 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manena View Post
I fully expect Hanno will do her utmost to silence my opinions on this subject.
You expect incorrectly, you admit that these are your OPINIONS--and opinions are okay in my book.
post #58 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by christyb View Post
Dogs are carnivores. Some dogs eat socks but that does not make them sockivores!
I'm sorry but this just about had me peeing my pants!! : :

I have read the whole thread after being off of the boards for awhile (busy, busy, busy) and I certainly don't mean any disrepect to anyone here who prefers a veg*n lifestyle for their family. However, I do agree that it is not fair to ask an animal that is by nature carnivorous to acquiesce to the same menu. My dogs will eat baby carrots and sweet fruits if offered as well but that does not mean that they are getting anything nutritious from it. They just like the taste. Not to mention that if that's all an animal is offered, of course they are going to eat it. They aren't going to let themselves starve. You are going to feed your animals whatever you want regardless of what others say but I think it is only fair to your animals to atleast do research to make sure that you are feeding them what is biologically necessary for them. Regardless of YOUR feelings of feeding meat. What's best for you is not necessarily best for your pets.

I personally thank God that I switched mine to raw recently when the reports about the rat poison in canned food came out. It's only a matter of time before they start pulling the kibble from the shelves for something similar if they haven't already. Wouldn't know, I don't shop for it anymore.

I would not condemn you for your personal menu choice anymore than I would want you to condemn me for being an avid animal lover but still eating meat. It's a very personal choice that I respect. Truly I do. But I would do a lot of research before forcing a pet rabbit to eat meat just because I do.

Out of curiosity, where are the few posters who have said it coming up with facts that dogs are omnivores? I can't find anything that says they are omnivores but have found plenty stating they are carnivores..... Just wondering.....
post #59 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danemom View Post
Out of curiosity, where are the few posters who have said it coming up with facts that dogs are omnivores? I can't find anything that says they are omnivores but have found plenty stating they are carnivores..... Just wondering.....
I think you will find that "information" on sites that, wait for it - it's coming - oh, you're gonna love this - are you ready? - wait a little more -

companies that SELL vegetarian dog "food"!! Any companies that put fruits and veggies in their dog "food" I would imagine would support that false claim because it would help make their case in the sales department.
post #60 of 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by moonfirefaery View Post
You really don't have to jump all over her about it or accuse her of disrespect.

Dogs are carnivores, but how many dogs kept as pets actually eat meat? There are brands of vegetarian dog food that has everything a dog needs. Most of us feed our dogs kibble, and there are vegetarian kibbles. I haven't seen any vegetarian catfood, but...again, there are many brands of dry cat food. Cats these days don't exactly eat meat either. In the end it's about getting the nutrition one needs, not eating meat or vegetables specifically. There's even organic dry pet food out there. It's not meat. Most dogs don't eat meat. Some people do feed their pets meat, but no one is suggesting a diet of broccoli and carrots.
I've been staying out of this because I am by no means an expert on this subject, but that made me laugh out loud. What exactly do you think is IN most kibble?? Particularly in most organic or higher end kibble? Have you ever read a lable?
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