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Thoughts on Disney movies? - Page 5

post #81 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by BamaDude View Post
Nazi imagery? Did I miss something in both these films?
Apparently a lot of the Scar scenes are reminiscent of Riefenstahl's Triumph of the Will. And there's some goose-stepping. But Walt Disney was a known Nazi sympathizer until the US got into WWII.


Quote:
I doubt anyone under 18 would recognize the shark scene as a reference to an AA meeting, but even so I would think it served to illustrate how adults sometimes need the support of their friends to help them break bad habits and stop doing things they no longer want to do. :
I would have recognized it before the age of 18. A lot of children of alcoholics/addicts are exposed to the 12-step system through things like Al-Anon when they're very young. I'm not sure what's inherently bad about the way it was portrayed in Nemo, though for my own personal life I abhor 12-step programs.

Posts like these make me feel very, very fortunate that I had a son. I was afraid of these very issues when I was pregnant, and am glad that I can raise a feminist man who's respectful of women without having to wade through the daily minefield of raising a girl in this day and age. Because I'm NOT going to be buying the Stupid Spoiled Whore Video Playset, no matter how many of the other girls at school are in to it, you know what I mean?
post #82 of 124
But Scar is a bad guy, and what's he's doing is clearly wrong in the context of the movie. That's not PRO-Nazi imagery.
post #83 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic View Post
: What??? Bambi and Little Mermaid... mother is absent. In Dumbo, at least the mother was defending her child, even if she did get punished for it.

Disney movies really irritate me. They do not think about the message they are conveying. Everyone just gets caught up in the graphics and don't bother really listening to what they are saying. Disney is racists, anti-feminist, and homophobic.
Okay
I am just reading htrough this very long thread. I have been thinking about this alot lately because DS is 3.5. It is not just the movies it is the books too.
The one thing I have been noticing is that in many of them there is this sick absence of a mother or twisted version of a mother. Lets see how many I can think of .. as already mentioned by velochic - bambi and little mermaid, snow whites mother sends a hit out on her daughter because she won't be the fairest in the land anymore! of course it is a prince that saves her (gag) and where is Cinarella's Mother? Cause her stepmother is not doing a very good job of raising her. Pinoccio is created by a man! Ha sno mother, these subtle messages are very strong! and it does mirror some of what is wrong with our culture. Can someone think of any others where mom is absent or twisted in some way?

The lion king is about pre-meditated murder - it is all about murder.

I do let my son watch cars. I talk to him about certain language and he does understand that there are some things that are not said by children. I did let him watch toy story. He was afraid of brother bear and I avoid Neemo because I remeber there being some hub bub about violence in the beginning and some little kids getting scared.

I don't have a girl yet but I find nothing wrong with the princess thing - Maybe not disney princessess per say - I do believe media can influence the way a girl or woman thinks about what is ideal ( that's why I love Dove's campains) But I think a disease like Anarexia goes alot deeper. I am not an expert or anything - but anorexia is a slow suicide and there are deeper issues than the body image, the behavior is a symptom.

Also one of the most agressive 4 y/o's I know has never seen the TV, the computer, a movie - nothing outside of a book that was carfully chosen by his very mother. He is constantly pushing, hitting, pinching, he puts his whole self into these acts he gets the strangest look in his eye when he is doing it too.

I stand by taking care of your own emotional and psycholocical health first and formost because no matter what your kids see either on tv or in the real world, your modeling and relationship with them is the biggest influence.

Someone mentioned alternatives - where can I find a list of truly child friendly movies? Or do some Mama's have some GOOD suggestions? I know it was mentioned but specifics were not given.

I am truly shocked that so many think that these disney movies are really okay. The I turned out fine doesn't sit with me because the culture in general here in the USA is not fine at all. There are always a few who are the exceptions.
post #84 of 124
The evil stepmothers and Geppetto creating Pinocchio (although the female Blue Fairy gives him life) and the dead parents are all in the original fairy tales. And I think there are very good reasons that those elements are in them -- I think evil stepmothers give kids a safe figure to receive their angry or ambivalent feelings about their own mothers, and I think that stories about children on their own who prevail tell children that they are strong and capable, and they make the story more exciting too.

Any good collection of traditional fairy tales and folk stories, from any culture I can think of, will be far more horrifying than anything Disney does -- if anything, Disney movies tend to water the stories down and take out the more upsetting elements, like Ariel being rejected by the prince or Cinderella's sisters cutting off pieces of their feet to fit the slipper. And children have loved this kind of story for as long as there have been children; it clearly meets a need for them.

OK, you can see I have read Bruno Bettelheim.
post #85 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mamapits View Post
Okay

Also one of the most agressive 4 y/o's I know has never seen the TV, the computer, a movie - nothing outside of a book that was carfully chosen by his very mother. He is constantly pushing, hitting, pinching, he puts his whole self into these acts he gets the strangest look in his eye when he is doing it too.
Do you honestly think this is BECAUSE he doesn't watch TV? it sounds like it, I am hoping that's not what you meant.....
post #86 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thalia the Muse View Post
The evil stepmothers and Geppetto creating Pinnochio (although the female Blue Fairy gives him life) and the dead parents are all in the original fairy tales. And I think there are very good reasons that those elements are in them -- I think evil stepmothers give kids a safe figure to receive their angry or ambivalent feelings about their own mothers, and I think that stories about children on their own who prevail tell children that they are strong and capable, and they make the story more exciting too.

Any good collection of traditional fairy tales and folk stories, from any culture I can think of, will be far more horrifying than anything Disney does -- if anything, Disney movies tend to water the stories down and take out the more upsetting elements, like Ariel being rejected by the prince or Cinderella's sisters cutting off pieces of their feet to fit the slipper. And children have loved this kind of story for as long as there have been children; it clearly meets a need for them.

OK, you can see I have read Bruno Bettelheim.
and there is no need to cut them out of stories in a book or told orally because the image is not STAMPED on a small child's mind as they are in a movie.....

my dd cracks up every time I read about Cinderella's stepsisters' getting their feet cut up, it appeals to her sense of justice, and in general I really think she enjoys the idea of "bad" or in her terms "doing naughty things" because she recognizes that part of herself as well.....

if this image were to be put in a Disney movie no one would be able to see the underlying message through the gore. of course this stuff has to be cut out.....these stories were not written with a "movie deal" in mind.....
post #87 of 124
Quote:
and there is no need to cut them out of stories in a book or told orally because the image is not STAMPED on a small child's mind as they are in a movie.....
I don't know that I buy the argument that movies "stamp" images in some more harmful or deep way than books do. I know that I've been frightened or disturbed by some books in a way that a movie can't touch, because the story takes place inside my head, you know?
post #88 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell View Post
and there is no need to cut them out of stories in a book or told orally because the image is not STAMPED on a small child's mind as they are in a movie...
I can remember being completely wigged out by the imagery in fairy tales as a child. I hadn't seen them in a movie - I'd read them in a book. They stuck in my head every bit as much as anything I ever saw in a movie did. Even visual images...my mental picture of Cinderella is dark-haired, with ringlets and a huge, flowng golden gown. That was the illustration in my Cinderella book, and any other Cinderella just isn't right. I never saw her in a movie, either.

I'm not even sure why I'm posting. We don't do a lot of Disney around here, and the we only own The Little Mermaid, Aladdin (they were both ds1's when he was little) and Beauty and the Beast, which is dd's favourite. DD enjoys them all, so she gets to watch them sometimes. I just don't get this intense hatred of Disney.
post #89 of 124
are you talking as an adult?

with adult books I have been horrified definately, the descriptions are much more detailed for adults and of course our minds are completely different from children so I wouldn't really compare them....
but maybe you meant when you were a child?

the "horror" in fairy tales is written in a very matter of fact way, and I tell them in a very matter of fact way as well.....the delivery is important as well.
my dd is not horrified by the words. there have been some images in books that have scared her such as in some of Hans Christian Anderson stuff, but I think it really depends on the book in that case.

and I agree that the imagination knows no limits (especially as a child). I see this as a reason to never show TV, first of all there is no need, second of all the imagination can be hindered by images on TV ("boxed" in), third of all the imagination that is sparked by TV is not nearly as fulfilling as that sparked by words in the air or well-done illustrations.....

I clearly remember that as a child....tv made me restless and dreaming of being inside my TV to meet these characters whereas books and oral stories had a much more satisfying effect for me......
post #90 of 124
I was a bookish kid who also watched a lot of TV -- I don't think it hindered my imagination. And I wanted to meet book characters and movie characters about equally, I guess -- a lot of my imaginative life revolved around Prydain and the Little House books. I didn't have your experience as a child, of feeling restless and unsatisfied from watching television.

I do agree that fairy tales are told in a matter-of-fact, kind of ritualized way that makes the violence less alarming to the hearer. But I have to say, Hans Christian Anderson stories in particular (which aren't really fairy tales) exposed me to a lot more grief and horror than anything I saw on television as a young child. The Little Match Girl! The stinking Little Christmas Tree! Sheesh, I can hardly think about those NOW.
post #91 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell View Post
Do you honestly think this is BECAUSE he doesn't watch TV? it sounds like it, I am hoping that's not what you meant.....
Of course not!
That would be redicules. The point is that what kids get from thier parents have a bigger impact than any movie or type of media.
post #92 of 124
This says a lot to me about why regulating tv/movies is more important than banning it. IT's about creating an environment that is both enriching and nurturing to children, not being the TV police or creating a culture of anti-tv, or anti-disney. Be your own best judge for your kids.
post #93 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabeca View Post
This says a lot to me about why regulating tv/movies is more important than banning it. IT's about creating an environment that is both enriching and nurturing to children, not being the TV police or creating a culture of anti-tv, or anti-disney. Be your own best judge for your kids.
I kind of read that article differently than you did. I saw it as just one more reason to not show TV at all. I really didn't get how she puts TV down for most of the article and then says limit it to 1 hour or less a night, contradictory IMO.
One hour a night!! That sounds like a lot of TV time to me.....

And there is no need to be TV police if it just isn't part of your home-life.

also, I think it depends on the age that the stories are read to children....3 is very young for Cinderella but perfect for 6 or 7....

also, I don't Hate Disney....
I find it annoying but it has no real impact on my daily life....
post #94 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thalia the Muse View Post
I don't know that I buy the argument that movies "stamp" images in some more harmful or deep way than books do. I know that I've been frightened or disturbed by some books in a way that a movie can't touch, because the story takes place inside my head, you know?
Perhaps not harmful, but movies do stamp images. I remember reading the first Harry Potters and he did NOT look like Daniel Radcliff in my mind's eye. Moreover... he never looked liked the Daniel Radcliff from Equus.

I think books leave so much more to the imagination than movies do. You get to infer and kind of imagine how things might be, how people might look. Disney always portrays the heroine as pretty... the bad guy is ugly. A child can see them any way they want in the pages of a book.
post #95 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell View Post
the "horror" in fairy tales is written in a very matter of fact way, and I tell them in a very matter of fact way as well.....the delivery is important as well.
my dd is not horrified by the words. there have been some images in books that have scared her such as in some of Hans Christian Anderson stuff, but I think it really depends on the book in that case.
Fairy tales were written as allegories for life. It was to teach a lesson that was relevant to the time they were written. They were violent... because they were written in violent times. When these things were written, people didn't just say, "Don't go into the woods" or "Be happy who you are and don't try to leave the social status you were born into" or "Don't tell lies"... instead they told "Hansel and Gretel" and "Little Mermaid" and "THe Boy Who Cried Wolf" stories. They were lessons that made a whole heck of a lot of sense when they were told. Today... they are just marketing engines.

(I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, just using your post as an example.)
post #96 of 124
I disagree -- I think there is more to most fairy tales than just a cautionary story. They are about being brave and resourceful and finding who you are meant to be. They are about confronting your own negative feelings and resolving them. I don't think the violence is meant to be taken literally. There is a lot more to Hansel and Gretel than "don't go into the woods" -- which is why it still captivates children today.
post #97 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimibell View Post
I really didn't get how she puts TV down for most of the article and then says limit it to 1 hour or less a night, contradictory IMO.
One hour a night!! That sounds like a lot of TV time to me.....
I think the average am't of tv watched by US children is close to 3 hrs. per DAY.

For us, it means no or almost no during the week tv (which for my kid means saying no a lot, thus the tv police thing...and it's been this way since 2002; making the rules the rules not only takes time, it takes cooperation. This is one place dd does not want to cooperate. I do this because I feel she need the external structure I can offer to set limits on TV/movies.), and as long as homework is done on weekends, she can watch a few hrs. each day sat and sun. I have xxx'd the disney channel and the toon network, nothing appears on the screen, but my dh would seriously misfire if I cancelled cable, or god forbid, lost the tv in a 2nd hand store. These are not battles, but compromises that are part of my life. And I wouldn't trade being a single parent (in my case) for the tv. I do think my kids have great self esteem, are creative, and love fairies and frogs as much as they've ever loved any princess or doll. They help dh build things, they help me clean and cook and garden and shop for food and even helped me in making my decision about a new family vehicle. I may not be thrilled with TV time, but they don't get it much when I'm on duty, and on balance, they are getting a lot of esteem-building parent time. It's a hard hard trade off for me - daddy/tv time for me being on duty 24/7. Just not worth trying to 'chance' my dh over. He'd really blow a gasket. We've been on that road...
post #98 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamabeca View Post
I think the average am't of tv watched by US children is close to 3 hrs. per DAY.
yes, that's crazy!! THAT is what is really scary...
I was thinking that too after I read it, that she is writing for an audience that most likely thinks 1 hour a day is not much at all.....hey, IMO if she can get a few people to show less to their kids, that's great.....
post #99 of 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by velochic View Post
Fairy tales were written as allegories for life. It was to teach a lesson that was relevant to the time they were written. They were violent... because they were written in violent times. When these things were written, people didn't just say, "Don't go into the woods" or "Be happy who you are and don't try to leave the social status you were born into" or "Don't tell lies"... instead they told "Hansel and Gretel" and "Little Mermaid" and "THe Boy Who Cried Wolf" stories. They were lessons that made a whole heck of a lot of sense when they were told. Today... they are just marketing engines.

(I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, just using your post as an example.)
I also think that the stories have so much to teach in this day and age as well. And I believe that it speaks to children in their language, that of a tale, much more so than we often do, with lecturing, explaining, blah, blah, blah (I find myself doing it).....

this is also why I find the argument of "explaining" what is happening on a TV show or movie so silly......
it's not possible to explain away an image.....
"a picture is worth a thousand words"

when you (as an adult) see a scary or shocking image your reptilian brain reacts first and then your neocortex kicks in....this is why the adrenaline runs when you watch a scary or suspense movie......but then your brain says, hey, this isn't real.....
but for small children, who definately do not have the intellect or knowledge or experience to understand what is happening in a movie, see an image, there is no counter balance.....they experience it like it is real......

and I know there is no way you can talk a child out of fear.......you may comfort them or reassure them but the fear is there and it is very real.....

so my question again is why would someone subject their child to this??

you have no way of really knowing if your child is going to get scared by something until he or she has been exposed to it.....
there are so many questions and doubts about it and no real benefits.....
I just don't get it.....
post #100 of 124
We do have Pixar movies and enjoy those (but discuss what's going on). Unfortunately, Ina hears harsher language from her dad than she does in the movies. Working on that!

I don't want Barbies or Bratz - due to the body image thing and also just the simple fact that I don't see any reason for them. I grew up without them, Mom didn't like them. I wanted to comb their hair and dress them up. And Ina and SJ can get the same thing from the Only Hearts Club dolls, without the sexualization etc. being a part of the picture (nor the unrealistic body image!).

We don't have Disney movies because, yes, I don't like the "Disney princess" approach - I don't like the assumption that women need to be rescued by someone (some man), the focus on the external, and also, I don't like the "missing mom" and tragedy aspects of most of them. Yes, that's part of a lot of literature, but I don't think it MUST be a part of very young children's movies, KWIM? I don't think it's necessary.

Probably the largest and best argument I have against Disney movies, Barbie, et al is simply - why SHOULD I have them? Why MUST my child have them? There are only so many things I can afford, there's only so much clutter this house can take, and I have a responsibility to prioritize what we bring into this house and what we spend our $$ on. That means, if I'm going to choose the most fun/educational/interesting/intellectually stimulating/imaginative thing I can. So - Ina typically watches U2 concert dvds, or Pink Floyd, or Pentrax train dvds, or whatever if she IS watching TV. And our preferred TV station is Food Network.

We discuss what we're watching with her and so on. I just wish that there were more things that I felt comfortable with that we could watch with her. We watched Flicka last week ... OK ... don't know why there 'had' to be the father/daughter conflict, and don't know why they showed a girl growing up in WY who didn't know what to do when she saw a mountain lion. I guess I think my own sister's taming of a horse who'd been abused (at the age of 8) is just as exciting and interesting, but had a lot less unnecessary violence - don't know why there aren't simpler movies like that for kids.
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