Vaccinating Pets - Page 5

[Trillian]

Originally Posted by Deborah

http://www.dontshake.com/Audience.as...ctsAnswers.htm

From the site PP pointed to in post #56

There are definitely a lot of problems with the set of assumptions here.
"Extensive retinal hemorrhages" can have other causes besides shaking--amazingly enough this symptom can be caused by brain swelling, which can be caused by...disease or vaccination.

Actually, that site is careful to point out the following:

A few intraretinal hemorrhages confined to the posterior pole may be very nonspecific and could result from numerous other causes. But the presence of massive retinal hemorrhage throughout the entire retina (subretinal, intraretinal, and preretinal) is virtually diagnostic of shaken baby syndrome, as it is very rare to see such a presentation of any other systemic or ocular disease that would not otherwise be easily distinguished by the presence of other supportive signs.

One specific retinal abnormality, traumatic retinoschisis, is essential to recognize as it is highly specific for shaken baby syndrome and has never been described in any other condition of infants and young children in the shaken baby range.

The specific type of retinal hemorrhages you typically see in shaken baby syndrome are NOT the same as would occur from other causes of brain damage.

[Trillian]

Originally Posted by lokidoki

You should read more about feline leukemia now. There is new research out that suggests it is not as contagious as it once was...and that the actual vaccine is more dangerous.

Here is a start...

http://www.bemikitties.com:80/felv/c...lassifieds.cgi

I don't see any research linked to on that page - it seems to mostly be a site to advertise adoptions of FeLV+ animals. Could you point me to the actual research you're referring to? Thanks.

[lokidoki]

Originally Posted by Trillian

I don't see any research linked to on that page - it seems to mostly be a site to advertise adoptions of FeLV+ animals. Could you point me to the actual research you're referring to? Thanks.

Here is a link that was on that page regarding facts:

http://www.bemikitties.com/felv/fipfacts.html

There are links about half way down the page to felineleukemia.org

I have also emailed my friend who has lots of these resources to get her links. I will post those when she sends them over. She recently had an article in their humane society newsletter regarding positive kitties. I had it...but cannot find it in my inbox right now.

[lokidoki]

One other really good link I found in my inbox...

http://ucat.us/FELVFIVFIP.html

[Trillian]

Originally Posted by lokidoki

Here is a link that was on that page regarding facts:

http://www.bemikitties.com/felv/fipfacts.html

That page is about FIP, not FeLV.

Originally Posted by lokidoki

One other really good link I found in my inbox...

http://ucat.us/FELVFIVFIP.html

Hmm, I looked through some of the links on that page and didn't see anything recommending against vaccination. Most of the information is about caring for cats with FeLV, but this is what some of them say:

Also, fortunately, there is a vaccine available through your local veterinarian which effectively protects most cats from infection.
http://www.petshealth.com/dr_library/felfiv.html

Consider FeLV vaccination of uninfected cats. (FeLV vaccination of infected cats is not beneficial.) Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of vaccination with your veterinarian.
http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/brochures/felv.html

There are at least two FeLV vaccines on the market that provide excellent protection.
http://www.winnfelinehealth.org/Pages/FeLV_Web.pdf

I don't see anything about the potential dangers of the vaccine (other than the standard disclaimer to discuss it with a vet).

[lokidoki]

Originally Posted by Trillian

That page is about FIP, not FeLV.
Hmm, I looked through some of the links on that page and didn't see anything recommending against vaccination. Most of the information is about caring for cats with FeLV, but this is what some of them say:

I don't see anything about the potential dangers of the vaccine (other than the standard disclaimer to discuss it with a vet).

Several of those links did state that sarcoma is a risk in cats immunized for FeLV. So much so that vet schools started teaching vets to administer the vaccine in the limbs rather than in the trunk of the body as these tumors were developing and the only 'true' way to get rid of them was to lop off a limb. When administered in the trunk of the body obviously this is not possible and would cause the animal to have to be PTS.

Below is a link to a great website containing info about lots of vaccines for animals...

http://www.truthaboutvaccines.net/

Specifically this article discusses the need for only 1 immunization to provide immunity for life and the dangers of vaccines in animals, especially repeated vaccines.

http://www.holisticat.com/vaccinations.html

Unfortunately my friend's PC has crashed and she is having to use her husband's PC...she should have it up tomorrow and I will PM you the links and article she is sending me.

The above are links I have bookmarked from previous research and had more time to flip thru this evening. The websites I sent previously did state side effects of the vaccines...but the additional research that has been done has allowed FeLV positive kitties to live where they were once automatically PTS by most vets. FeLV is something cats can live with...and good percentage naturally stop the progression of the disease and live happy healthy lives.

[PNWmama]

We have two indoor cats and we don't vaccinate them. Since they stay inside they aren't at risk and don't come into contact with any other animals. But if we did decide to let them go outside, I probably would vaccinate them because there are a lot of stray cats in our neighborhood. At the very least I'd do rabies.

[Trillian]

Originally Posted by lokidoki

Below is a link to a great website containing info about lots of vaccines for animals...

http://www.truthaboutvaccines.net/

Specifically this article discusses the need for only 1 immunization to provide immunity for life and the dangers of vaccines in animals, especially repeated vaccines.

An awfully biased site, although I can concede that annual boosters for all shots may not be necessary. Other than that, there is a lot of misrepresentation going on at that site and in the linked articles.

Originally Posted by lokidoki

http://www.holisticat.com/vaccinations.html

Ok, from the first couple of paragraphs on that page:

In truth, I now consider vaccination to be tantamount to animal abuse in most cases.

This opinion has two main bases: First, vaccines often do not provide any protection. This may result from poor vaccine performance (as with feline leukemia virus, feline infectious peritonitis virus, and ringworm vaccines), lack of risk (all vaccines at times, but particularly the above vaccines plus rabies), or simply lack of need (as with booster vaccination in almost all cases). Secondly, many vaccines actually induce illness that is much greater than that of the diseases that they are designed to prevent.

A further consideration is that vaccination weakens the strength of a population by allowing individuals to survive that otherwise would succumb to natural diseases; these diseases provide cleansing and strengthening for the population under normal conditions.

Let me look at that piece by piece:

First, vaccines often do not provide any protection. This may result from poor vaccine performance (as with feline leukemia virus, feline infectious peritonitis virus, and ringworm vaccines)

The vaccine effectiveness for FeLV is estimated at 75-85%. (Source) Not perfect (nothing is) but a long way from providing no protection at all.

lack of risk (all vaccines at times, but particularly the above vaccines plus rabies)

My own experience says that FeLV is a significant risk for outdoor cats, but I recognize that it is only anecdotal. From this page: "The prevalence of FeLV in single-cat households is about 3% and can be as high as 11% in stray or high risk cat populations." I don't see how that can be interpreted as a "lack of risk."

Secondly, many vaccines actually induce illness that is much greater than that of the diseases that they are designed to prevent.

Again from the previous source: "Cats that test positive for FeLV may live for months to years. [...] There is no specific treatment for FeLV and no known cure. A large number of therapies have been investigated for FeLV positive cats, but most have not shown encouraging results. Anti-viral drugs, such as AZT, show some promise, but are associated with many side effects. A drug that stimulates the immune system, interferon, can be given orally to cats without side effects and may be helpful in many cases. Specific cancers associated with FeLV have their own chemotherapy treatment protocols. However, cats with cancer associated with FeLV have an average survival time of 6 months even with aggressive chemotherapy."

Compare that with a less than 1/1000 chance of developing a vaccine sarcoma, which, as you point out, is treatable via amputation. I would not consider the dangers of the vaccine to be greater than the dangers of the illness by any measure.

A further consideration is that vaccination weakens the strength of a population by allowing individuals to survive that otherwise would succumb to natural diseases; these diseases provide cleansing and strengthening for the population under normal conditions.

Ahh... It's ok if your cat dies because it strengthens the gene pool! I would love to see that reasoning applied to humans. : I couldn't read any further.

[giggleball]

Our vet no longer administers (or recommends) any shots other than rabies for our dogs..... interesting from someone who could potentially make money on the vaccinations. His research indicates they are not needed.

[Sanveann]

My own experience says that FeLV is a significant risk for outdoor cats, but I recognize that it is only anecdotal. From the same source: "The prevalence of FeLV in single-cat households is about 3% and can be as high as 11% in stray or high risk cat populations." I don't see how that can be interpreted as a "lack of risk."

I agree. Another problem is that many humane societies and rescue groups adopt out 8-week-old kittens, but the FeLV test isn't terribly accurate till 12 weeks. We adopted our beloved Janie at 8 weeks old (with a negative FeLV test) and didn't find out she was actually positive till a year and a half later. (She had always seemed perfectly healthy, until she just collapsed one day. We rushed her to the vet, only to find out that she was very ill and there was no recourse other than euthanasia.)

We had not vaccinated our other cats, and they had been living with her for all that time ... we were terrified that they had contracted FeLV as well. Fortunately, neither of them had. (Janie had not been particularly cuddly with either of them, thank goodness.)

At any rate, we don't vaccinate our cats currently, as they're indoors-only, but if we were to bring another small kitten into the house, we would definitely vax our other cats for FeLV first.

[lokidoki]

Originally Posted by Trillian

An awfully biased site, although I can concede that annual boosters for all shots may not be necessary. Other than that, there is a lot of misrepresentation going on at that site and in the linked articles.

I could potentially send you several hundred links and books to read if you would like...I have posted just one more site below quoting Ron Schultz which gives a very good explanation of what I think is mega overvaccination in our animals altogether!

http://www.weim.net/homeovet/English/Vaccine.htm

I wholeheartedly believe that our animals are being killed because of over-vaccination. I have 2 dogs in particular that suffer from vaccine induced illnesses -- one has seizures and the other has unexplained GI issues that even my vet believes was caused by a severe vaccine reaction!

I DO believe that vaccines offer life long immunity when administered only once...which is interesting that you did not even mention this at all! Giving repeated vaccinations has even been researched and proven to possibly be pointless!

I would happily supply you with my information ~ however it appears that no matter what you read we will remain on our own respective positions with regard to vaccines. Which is most certainly fine as I am more than comfortable with my 15 lbs, 12 year old cat that is an indoor/outdoor cat that has been happy/healthy for all 12 years of his life (nevermind that he only rec'd FeLV vaccines as a 16 week old kitten and still shows titers of immunity).

[Banana731]

This is kind of an interesting thread. I wasn't going to read it, but the more I thought about it, the more I wondered. Here in Okinawa you are required by law to vax your pets against rabies, and microchip them. It is actually(from what I have been told by the "animal groups" here) a rabies free island, and I guess they intend to keep it that way. It's funny in a way, because the Japanese are very against forcing medication on their people. Japanese, in general, though do not view animals in the same light. I think that most Americans, for instance, would think the zoos here are cruel.

I have to kind of agree with that mind set. Animals are not people, I don't think of them the same way, and really it would be hypocritical of me to. I eat meat, eat animal products, own leather. Someday, I'd like to have a little farm, so I can eat my own meat(which will be much healthier for us than commercially available meat!) But if you're the farmer, how do you take your cow to slaughter or kill your chickens, if you're too attached? Don't get me wrong, I like pets, I have cats and a turtle. But when it comes to their vaxes, we don't put as much thought into it as we do when it comes to our children.

I don't mean any offense, the way you choose to live is your own business. If you're a big animal rights person and you're a vegan, or you're religion dictates that you don't eat animals-that's awesome, that you're really practicing what you preach. This is just how I feel. And I still enjoyed this thread, very interesting.

[Deborah]

I'm not a vegan, or even a vegetarian, but I do believe strongly that human beings have a responsibility to treat animals well. And that means not giving them unnecessary or dangerous medications. It means slaughtering without unnecessary cruelty. And all that sort of stuff. There is room between totally selfish destructiveness of every form of life on the planet except human beings and sweeping the path before each step to avoid killing a bug.

[bookwormommy]

OMG, I just wrote the longest post to this thread, probably too long! and my log-in timed out so when I went to preview my post I lost the whole thing. Maybe I'll summon up the words again tomorrow, or maybe I'll take it as a sign from the universe to keep my opinions to myself!

(And I even cashed in on some of my personal baby-free time to finish it - doh!)

[kxsiven]

Yes I vax and give worm medicine to my pets. I worked many years as a vet tech and saw too many non-vaxinated puppies&kittens dieing. Thanks to vaxinations we have also been able to keep this country rabies free, eventhough we share a very long border with Russia(where rabies is still alive and well).

Also wildlife gets vaccinations near border areas. Thousands of 'rabiesvax-bates' are dropped around the border area every year.

[emdeecee_sierra]

Just had a friend tell me that she had the vet out all day to do the rounds of vaxing her horses. Just after the vet drove off, she looked over at one of the first horses to get the shots and he was on the ground convulsing. Vet too far away to chase down. She called, desperate, and they sent a different vet out who sat up with her, her DH, and the horse all night long trying to keep the horse alive.

Know a few people who have had puppies convulse after puppy shots and then were just 'off' for the remainder of their lives (the puppies... not the owners ).

I stopped vaxing my dog after I was enlightened about vax after becoming a mommy. We went with the rabies vax on account of becoming ruralites- just in case a bat or other wild thing were to mix it up with my dog. What is hard for me is that to show him or take him to any training or have him on any teams (such as Flyball) I have to provide proof of the whole range of shots It has just worked out that due to other circumstances (pg and little ones and the rest... ) I haven't been doing much of those things so I haven't been forced to delve into more research on it and either get him the shots or learn how to fight the rules/system and get him in unvaxed.

[mom0810]

I showed a dog that was from Finland and had LOTS of rabies vaccines, including one to fly here. He was very aggressive (think of the symptoms of rabies) and a little "off". Excessive vaccines can be VERY detrimental to a dog's nervous system and immune system. It's just not a good thing, especially when we know that one vaccine, timed properly, does the job for life.

That is what led me to research human vaccines. WHY do we need to "boost" them so much when we know that in dogs, ONE vaccine is all that is needed? IF I vaccinate my child, it will be once for each disease, and then check titers before proceeding.

The vaccine inserts for most children's vaccines do admit that ONE vaccine works in a certain number of kids. So why boost the rest of them? It's just like the second MMR now recommended for all kids, even though ONE MMR covers 90% of kids.

[kxsiven]

Originally Posted by mom0810

I showed a dog that was from Finland and had LOTS of rabies vaccines, including one to fly here. He was very aggressive (think of the symptoms of rabies) and a little "off".

? Rabies vaccinations were started on dogs here 1929 and since the vaccination program was very aggressively put out , the last cases on dogs were 1931. so I don't understand how that dog could have gotten rabies from here.

There are lot of reasons why dog can be aggressive or 'off'. Especially with show dogs. Why do you think it was due to vaccination?

If the dog was vaccinated according to the showdog reculations, it got ot first rabies vaccination when it was 4 months old. Then a booster at 1 years old. After that every two years. This recommendation goes for hunting dogs too.

We have rabies outbreaks all the time near our border(Russian side).
We do not want that horrible disease back into this country.

All the years as a vet tech, I've never seen a dog going mad due to the rabies vaccination. Yes, like in humans, vaccination can cause some side effects to some animals - but rather side effects than getting rabies back.

We are a pet family - cats and dogs. We also have children. I do not take any risks with that combination. My pets are vaccinated and they get their worm medicines twice a year.

[lokidoki]

I believe what mom0810 was stating is that she believes the Rabies vaccination was what was causing the aggression. There is research that supports that continuously vaccinating our dogs against Rabies can make them aggressive and develop some of the aggression that is seen in Rabies.

[mom0810]

I'm not saying the dog had rabies, obviously, but he was very uncharacteristically, for the breed, aggressive. And yes, I do think it was from the vaccine. I have seen lots of dogs have temperment effects from vaccines, but I am a showdog person and have been around 100's of dogs.

Some breeds are more sensitive than others, and that accounts for the temperment effects of vaccinations. Also some bloodlines are more sensitive.

What I do not understand is why the repeat rabies vaccines when, if a titer is checked, we will find the dog is still immune? Here in the states, most counties will accept a titer as evidence of immunity rather than requiring you to vaccinate. They just want you to pay the $$ to register the dog, and use the rabies vaccine as a way to keep track. But if you keep getting titers done every three years and the dog is immune, why vaccinate?

I think the vaccination of the wildlife is actually a good idea. I am not anti vaccine for animals. I am against OVER vaccination, which I think occurs in people and animals. It is up to every pet owner, just like every parent, to do what they think is best and I would not chastise anyone for whatever choice they make. I'm just relaying my experience and what I have seen.