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Attachment parenting vs Continuum Parenting? - Page 3

post #41 of 68
Great thread, mamas ...

Small comment ... have found that baby#3 is CC parented by default, just because I no longer have the time to focus directly on him and chase him around with that danged ball or keep up the annoying narrative.

You know what? He's all those things that (I think it was Tanibani) described her baby as, resourceful, resilient ... competent in ways #1 definitely isn't and #2 only slightly is.

Sometimes it's just a matter of time.

post #42 of 68
Quote:
Originally posted by Ubertulip
[My daughter already is 10 weeks old, and sometimes she hates being in the sling.
Give her time. My ds hated the sling at first. He could not stand the cradle hold. He tolerated the Kangaroo carry for short periods of time, and didn't come to really like being worn until he was old enough for the hip carry. Now we couldn't live w/o our sling!

As boring as physical chores are for us adults, I've found that they are what my ds loves best. He loved riding along with me while I did dishes or laundry. Now that he's crawling and starting to walk, he still loves to be right in the middle of things when I'm loading the dishwasher or emptying the dryer. He is still in the sling for vacuuming, as he's afraid of the noise.
post #43 of 68
I am not a labler and I am starting to ignore books . I see that I work both CC and AP ways.

This is a very interesting topic. I've learned alot!
post #44 of 68

What is AP?

I'd like to say a little bit more about CC and AP.

I think *some* people interpret AP to mean child-centered parenting or permissive parenting and then they are "parented-out" when their little ones get past the baby-wearing stage.

To me AP is a direct response to the mainstream, "Cry-It-Out" crowd and NOT a directive to parents to "over-parent".

I took a cue from my daughter and started giving her independence when she started to crawl and then, walk. She is now 17 months old. She does not always WANT me to play with her - but she does want me around or to at least know where I am while she has imaginative play of her own.

I consider one of my chief roles in her life right now to be that of an observer that hovers around and lets her explore but keeps her from running out in traffic or walking off into the deep-end of the pool. I am always there to "touch base" and we hug, laugh, nurse, etc. But I have noticed that she doesn't always NEED me as she used to ALL the time.

It is always interesting to me to see the transition come over her at night when she is tired and cranky - she goes from self-assured toddler to primal baby. I find that nursing helps to bridge this gap for her.

I really liked the book "The Emotional Life of the Toddler" by Alicia Lieberman. It wasn't AP or non-AP - it just explains in great detail the emotinal development of the toddler. It helped me to understand what DD must be going through in her little mind.

Any more thoughts?
post #45 of 68

continuum relating to Montessori

Wonderful thread!

I had heard of cc, but didn't know what it was - haven't had time to look into it yet.
I was a Montessori preschool teacher before a sahm, and I want to let you all know that cc sounds like it has alot in common with Montessori philosophy, judging from what I've read in this post.
ex: handling fragile objects, exploring the environment, child shares responsibility for care of the environment, no exaggerated praise, etc.
I'm curious and want to read more . .. .
What book do you recommend most? Is it the "Our Babies Ourselves" by Liedloff the only one?
post #46 of 68
The Continuum Concept is written by Liedolff

Our Babies ourselves is Merdith Small
post #47 of 68
I enjoyed both books. =)

Here's my take on things:
AP = trusting that your baby's not trying to manipulate you, step up to the plate and be a parent, respond, be there in close contact, and bond.
Baby Wise = make the baby as convenient as possible so you can go about your life.
CC = trust that the baby is social, will live up to your expectations, and do things appropriate to his/her abilities and needs, go about your life so the baby can learn what will be expected of him/her later

It amazes/amuses me how many things BW tries to "fix" to make your life eaiser that are accomplished using CC type ideas. And the kid knows s/he's loved!

The safety thing also comes up in Montessouri (sp) teachings if I remember right. They let the kids use real knives and discourage fairy tales and such. On the other hand, the group of people Jane was observing didn't have things like roads and cars and such. I think there's a happy medium. I don't follow my DS around trying to catch him each time he falls, but I don't let him into the bathroom unattended (still haven't cleaned out the cabinets in there).

When DS started rolling over really well, I got scared about him falling out of bed. (We still use the bed as it came, no mattress on the floor). So I got one of those bed-gate thingyies. But it was a toy to DS, he'd crawl over to it and pull himself up. Since it was more dangerous to have him fall head over heals outta bed (and I just finished reading TCC), I removed it. But I was still scared, so I put pillows on the floor for him to fall onto (since I really did expect him to fall). Guess what! He *did* fall - becuase he was trying to reach for the pillows. Her concept of what you expect is what you're going to get seemed to work pretty well. So I try not to tell him, "if you do this, then that bad thing's going to happen," becuase it kinda shows that I expect him to do "this." If I don't want him to do something, I tell him he can't and give him something else he can do.

When he does fall, I look at him. If he cries, I attend to him; if not, we both go back to whatever we were doing. It's funny becuase my mom talks about how her DS (my li'l brother) would bonk his head, look around to see if anyone was watching, and if someone was then he'd turn on the faucet. So she brags about looking at him from the corner of her eyes. And then when my DS was getting around, whenever he'd nearly fall or whatever, she'd do this huge gasp and reach for him and react a lot! I had to ask her to stop it, I don't want to have to look at DS from the corner of my eyes! =)

The over-praising I think can be bad. I've tried to remove "good boy" from my vocabulary. He's good because he's him and I love him. He does amazing things and I smile and ask him how he felt doing it (he's only 8.5mo so it's just practice for now)

I'm done babbling. Happy mothering! =)
post #48 of 68
Quote:
Originally posted by MelissaEvans
And then when my DS was getting around, whenever he'd nearly fall or whatever, she'd do this huge gasp and reach for him and react a lot! I had to ask her to stop it, I don't want to have to look at DS from the corner of my eyes! =)
My mom said she is much more protective of Cole and hovers around him a lot more than she did with me. She said it's probably because she's getting to be an old mother hen. :LOL I personally think it' because she has strong tender grandmotherly feelings for him and a lot more time to focus on him than she did on me.

I was working in the garden the other day and Cole was next to me, pulling up weeds and threatening the occasional plant that was supposed to be there. We were out there for a while, both of us happy, and then my mom came out and was like, "Oh no, he's going to pull up the flowers!" Well, he had been there for 10 minutes and hadn't pulled any up yet, but anyway - I admit it was a possibility. But, *as I told her several times,* I didn't care if he pulled up a few flowers - it's heavily planted and could use some thinning, actually. But she wouldn't listen to me! She kept taking his hands away and picking him up and moving him a few feet away and telling him not to touch anything! Of course he would crawl right back and start messing with the plants again, and my mom would move him again... finally I had to stop working in the garden because I couldn't stand seeing him restrained like that.

I try to have a life to involve him in but I have to admit, I often use him as an excuse to play blocks on the floor and not do the dishes.
post #49 of 68
I really enjoyed the continuum concept. I started including more cc ideas in my parenting since dd turned 1yo. I still do a lot of ap but I was kind of becoming too child-centered before I read the cc book. I felt something was wrong but I didn't know how to go from the infant stage to the toddler stage with ap alone.

I have learned to trust dd more in the sense that I realize that she has instincts/reflexes that need to be put into practice in order for her to learn how to take care of herself.

I let her explore things that sometimes seem dangerous but I feel that if she doesn't learn to deal with different situations on her own then if she happens to find herself in a new or dangerous situation and I'm not there to protect her she will not be ready and the risk will be grater. Am I making sense?

From the way the Yequanas live they don't go around teaching the children how to do things. The children first observe the elders and when they are ready to explore they learn things by imitation. I let dd do this and I expect her to.

For example, she sees me eating almonds. She sees how I carefully chew them before I swallow then one day she decides to do it herself. This was when she was just a little over 13mo + she had her front teeth. I only commented to her that she had to chew it well and slowly ( I was afraid) but I projected confidence. I was truly suprised to see that she slowly scraped the almond little by little until she ate it all. Since then she has learned to be careful with the things that she eats and if they are hard she come up to me and say "chew slow?, chew slow?", then I say "yes it is hard so chew slow".

Many people might think that I am crazy but I think that if she ever happens to put something in her mouth or another child feeds her something and I didn't notice it she will be more prepared and will know what to do with it.

I let her play with coins also. She sometimes wants to put them in her mouth and I quickly offer her the piggy bank and show her where they are supposed to go. I try not to over react because I have noticed that she will try do it again as if she were questioning "what's the big deal, mom?"

I also let her walk up and down slopes (where we live there are many hills) so the sidewalks have slopes. Sometimes she starts to speed up when going down a slope and even though I feel like grabbing her I simply get a little closer and say slower like mommy. She has learned very well and when she feels like she is about to loose her balance she either stops or say "slow,slow" to herself and makes it down the hill without loosing a step. I think this is much safer then trying to chase her down and not making it on time... ending up with a few stitches and a 'slope phoebea' (sp?)

The same thing goes for when I mop the floor. From experience she knows what it's like slip but now she is aware of her body and balance and I trust her to walk on a slightly damp floor. She has mastered this very well ( I only let her do this when she is barefoot though, so she can sence the floor well). And she will go along saying "slow,slow".

I feel that these are very valuable lessons that will avoid many accidents because she is aware of her environment and she knows that there are potential dangers at home and out. She also knows that there are ways of dealing with them and she doesn't need me to be her eyes and ears all the time.

I am still vigilant but just to a certain point. I don't interfere I just might guide her a little by setting an example. I think being a mother is about teaching the child how to deal with the world with its many shapes, forms and situations... not about childproofing the world.

I learned this through the continuum concept and it's a good thing I did 'cause I was just about to go out there and childproof the world.'

I say this through my own experience. We started raising her in 'lah, lah land' were everything was perfect, harmless and childfriendly but then we sort of moved over to the 'real world'. Ironically to our amazement it 'IS' a safer place to be.
post #50 of 68
I've often wondered how to mop the floor around dd now that she is no longer interested in sitting in a backpack. I had never thought about teaching her about balance! Thanks for the tip, Kakies.
post #51 of 68
Just because some tribe in an exotic place does it, and for us it's a novel idea, does that make it necessarily better? I personally enjoy lots of child-centered interaction with my dd. I wanted a little one so badly and LOVE being able to read to her, take her to kid activities, have her "help" me with chores and cooking. As far as carrying her around, it's a lovely idea but with my bad back it was not realistic. Although I did enjoy seeing babies carried in India in the villages in slings. Normally they were not just carried by the mother, but by an older sibling, an aunt, or a grandmother. I think we can put too much pressure on ourselves to do what a village or extended family normally would. I am only one person.

As far as safety goes, my MIL thinks I'm really too obsessed with it. Maybe I am but it's kept my dd safe and alive. In India they don't use carseats (just started importing them for the well-to-do in the last 5 years)! They just let the child ride in mom's lap, or even on a motorcycle. One crash and the child is dead. There's no learning curve. They live on the second story of a house with a large concrete stairwell. The door to the stairwell was always open and no one cared about getting a gate or closing the door as I kept suggesting. They thought I was nuts for asking. So I left my 12 mos. old in the care of MIL and next thing I knew dd was down the stairs and heading towards the street because MIL didn't keep an eye on her!! In like the 5 mins. that it took me to use the bathroom. Third thing is MIL allowed her to climb on the kitchen table and I kept asking them not to do that. So dd fell off and hit her head on the marble floor. Is this what they mean in CC by not being so protective of the child? I think they used the example of cooking fires and latrines. I'm not sold on this at all. Now I'm not going to put a helmet on my baby when it's learning to walk but you def. need to be watchful and somewhat protective.

Darshani
post #52 of 68
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
. I wish Liedloff had another chapter called "Specific ways to work TCC into your modern American Life"-- without a tribe,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
Originally posted by mamaduck
I understand why you wish this, but it would bother me if she tried to give specific parenting advice. She was not a mother.
Just browsing this thread, which is very interesting. I have just finished the book myself, and the final chapter is Putting Continuum Principles Back to Work ....it is here she does give some fairly specific advice on how to integrate the principles into Western life. She also discusses ways in which one can heal their own 'Continuum deprived' childhood.

I understand what you mean, Mamaduck, about someone who is not a mother giving mothering advice, but really, the whole book is what could be described as a sort of mothering manual, albeit a very alternative and somewhat radical one for the palate of our society. She does see western society as, well, f*cked up and out of balance, and I agree. And with that thought, having a baby, at least in this society, does not make one a 'mother'. From the depth and breadth of her (Liedoff's) experience, I believe she is quite qualified to give advice.

After finishing the book and before coming across this thread, the thought occurred to me that AP might have been modeled after the concepts in the book. I think they are quite similar, except that AP can seem to be a little *too* child-centered, which Leidoff thinks can be detrimental to the maturing of the individual.

I'm quite taken by the ideas presented myself. I read it quickly, and plan to re-read it a little more slowly to absorb it entirely.
post #53 of 68
Quote:
I understand why you wish this, but it would bother me if she tried to give specific parenting advice. She was not a mother.
Neither was she an anthropologist, and as far as I know her observations were never confirmed by anyone else. Just thought I'd throw that out there.
post #54 of 68
There was a review on Amazon about Jane not being a professional in this field and the reviewer suggested Our Babies, Our Selves. So I got them both. OB,OS was written by a scientist, but I felt the ideas were pretty darn similar. Or at least teh reported lifestlyes of other cultures. Jane puts in her speculation about why things are and that's very debatable (do we really like roller coasters because our moms were too gentle?), but both promote cosleeping, nursing, carrying and such; many in OB,OS have less child-centered families as well.

Quote:
Just because some tribe in an exotic place does it, and for us it's a novel idea, does that make it necessarily better?
No, I don't think so either. I think it just makes us really think about choices we make. Are they really better, or do we accept them just becuase that's all we've known? Is there an alternative that's better, but different so harder to consider?

And I firmly believe in car seats too. =) DS is 8.5 mo and has been over 20lbs for a few months. But in this state, babies aren't allowed to go forward facing until they're >1yr AND >20lbs. So even though he looks like a 12mo and is bigger than many 12mo, he's still rear facing. Can't wait until October! =)

I never read the book, but in Three in a Bed (Dian Johnson I think), she mentions a book or essay about being in love with the tribe. Anyone else remember this? I borrowed this book from LLL, so I can't look it up.
post #55 of 68
When I first became a mama 19 years ago I had never heard the terms AP or CC...


But if I think back on all I did or didn't do, I think I did and still do lean more towards CC....

My kids were just part of our family unit.. They did what we did. Baking bread, growing herbs, making sculptures, reading, playing card, listening to music,baking cookies .... The list goes on and on.
Our kids have an are part of our community...The community of our home, our neighborhood andI hope the world. THey have alaways been involved in what was going on, what ever that may be.....


Of course I played games, made up plays, painted, acted silly with them. But with four I quickly learned that they much more enjoyed playing with each other. They were each others own best friends, play mates, partners in crime!!!!!

I nursed on demand up until a certain time. And I even tandemed. But to me, and this only my opinion, if my 2 year old wanted to nurse while I was kneading bread..... I wouldn't sop what i was doing and nurse that very second. Most likely I would say," I would love to nursey and if you help me finish making our bread we can sit down and listen to music and cuddle while you nurse"

I am sure I made and will still make many mistakes. The one thing I used in determining what to do for my kids was the simple question, " If I ________________, will my child feel treasured, respected and loved"

Peace to you all,

Granolamom
post #56 of 68
Thanks to all of you for this great post! I have been coming here for the past month because I’m frustrated by my parenting style. My daughter is 22 months old and I feel that our home is TOO child centered. Our all and everything revolves around her and I don’t think this is how I want to raise her. I want her to be an equal part of our family, part of our community and I don’t want her to be “spoiled”. I was trying to get some help here but this is the first thread that really helped me. Mostly, I’m glad to hear that there are other parents here that feel that a family can be child centered to a fault. I was beginning to think this was a taboo subject here. Thanks.
I’m going to get CC from the library. I have known about the book for a long time but the descriptions I heard made me think it was more baby/child centered than AP - not where I wanted to go. Any additional resources for adapting AP to a less child centered home (for a toddler who was raised in a mostly AP way) would be appreciated.
post #57 of 68

Kakies--

I really loved what you had to say--
Quote:
I think being a mother is about teaching the child how to deal with the world with its many shapes, forms and situations... not about childproofing the world.
That is a great perspective and something really valuable to get out of the book, and very applicable to our society.


Quote:
Just because some tribe in an exotic place does it, and for us it's a novel idea, does that make it necessarily better?
A tribe in a faraway place does it, yes-- but it isn't a novel idea to have community and physical work to do and not to create an unnatural "cult of childhood". I think "we" (in western society) have only been making childhood this overly precious, unatural thing to be tended to with toys and cooing for hours on end, since Victorian times. That's when books like Pooh, Alice in Wonderland, and Peter Pan grew out of the cultural climate and created this idea of sunshine, lollipops and rainbows around children all the time.

I think a blissful childhood really would be to be a young person engaged in learning from the people and places around me in a natural way. After all, to create healthy self-esteem in our children (and therefore one of their most reliable routes to joy) is to give them room to experience their own triumphs and emotions (without us supplying the "oooh, look what you can do!!!" all the time), and simply being always available when they need us.

IMO, as far as parenting, the Yequana life probably is better-- not because it is exotic, or novel-- but because it is perhaps more balanced. In general, our society is really out of balance, especially in regard to our eating and working habits, and this is inextricably related to our parenting habits. I think here in the MDC community, folks are a bit more balanced than the average westerner, simply because we might think about what we're doing a bit more. In this world, I think the effort alone is excellent progress.
post #58 of 68
Re: The cult of childhood

Steven Pinker's The Blank Slate refers to a list of human universals, a list that includes children's music, children's toys and baby talk.

Recent anthropological and sociobiological work discredit the idea that childhood is a new concept.

So a CC ideal wouldn't be anti-childhood, but anti-cult.

p.s. HannahSims, are you me? It would seem that we both have 21-month-old crazy people running our lives.
post #59 of 68
T I love Steven Pinker! Got the Blank Slate for Xmas, but have I had a chance to read it yet? Ha! You've motivated me to pick it up again.
post #60 of 68
Thinking about this as the thread progresses, I guess the upshot in my life was that AP was a great guide for listening to my instincts, CC gave me a way to make Dd a part of our life rather than a separate project that would take from all else.

For a long time I felt awful every time I took my focus away from her to wash the dishes. But washing the dishes, tedious as it sounds, makes the house nicer for everyone.

And for Dd, it was just as much fun to watch, as any baby game I might play, which I learned from seeing her. CC helped me see the world more from her viewpoint as to what might be enjoyable. Having Mom wash the dishes sounded like no fun to me, but for Dd it was a chance to be in the sling, listen to new sounds, see water splash, see soap bubbles, see the items moved from one place to another, see the dirty stuff swirl down the drain...pretty good stuff actually.

This was going to be a short post...much of what we are encouraged to offer our children, is directed toward the adult view of what our kids might enjoy or need. But our kids, as we all know, have a much different perspective.

Yesterday we took Dd for a walk on a nature trail. Dh went on a trip to Disneyworld with his brother and family, incl. his niece who was then about Dd's age. Dd swore that Dd had as great a time on the nature trail as his niece had at Disneyworld.

But no one makes Big Money saying take your kid walking on a nature trail.
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