Punishment: is it ever necessary? - Page 6

[chloeM]

I can tell you this: As a child that grew up with no punishments, no groundings , no time outs,no consequences I believe this to be detrimetal to a child. I grew up in an upper midle class family, well educated family. My mother took this aproach and we all became drug users, all the girls got preggo at a young age and have noooo respect for my mom. We didnt feel loved either. I hated being put on the same level as her and we learned nothing, no matter how much she talked to us!!! Children need consequences early on in life that will stand out(not abusive) so that they dont feel they are invinsible like we did, and learn to respect people. Our mothers emotions stood out to us, not any punishment so we began to think we were responsible for her emotions. I can tell you out of all my friends growing up it wasnt the ones that were spanked or punished that got into trouble , it was me. I still have problems with boundaries cause I never learned them. YOu cannot reason with a 4 year old, boundaries NEED to clear!! THere are consequences in life and we had a big shocker when it came to the real world. We have a hard time saying yes, saying no, and I lost my brother to a very poor decision.I really had to learn the hard way and am still learning and its hard everyday, Im anxious about making decisions and dont know how to make good ones, I never learned how to make good ones based on right and wrong and I sooo want to, Had to leasrn discipline the hard way from being such a young single mom( natural consequences bah ha) . It hard to teach an older person new tricks. we also learned to make excuses for our behavour, like Oh I was just feeling tired, so I did some drugs. My mom always tried to find the underlying reason but in the real world if you shoot someone you cant use that excuse (except for mabe if your crazy)Being tired or erational does not excuse the bahavour. It is about RIGHT and WRONG.But it also doesnt mean that you dont need the sleep as well.The natural consequences of drugs are death, and Id rather impose consequences and be the bad guy if it will prevent my kids from experiencing that

[2bluefish]

Originally Posted by frenchie

I stole $20 from my mom's roomate when I was 8 years old. Not only was I grounded from every priveledge I had (and it was summer time!!!) for 2 weeks, but I had to write 500 times "I will not lie or steal". I had to face the man I stole the money from and appologize for what I did.

I think this is a great example of punishment done badly - the time did not fit the crime. It was unjust. Punishment is hard to do well, because you have to have a good sense of justice.

When I was 8 my best friend, handed me some money she found at her house. When we got home and my mom found it, we discussed that we don't take things from other people's houses without asking. I explained that my friend gave it to me. She explained that my friend did not have the right, and that I need to ask the parents. I had to take the money back and apologize. And got a hug from that mom. That was it - I learned the lesson. There was no need for punishment. I was a little ashamed at first, but after the reconciliation, I felt good about myself. Grounding an 8 year old is absurd in my opinion. I was spanked, but I always felt my friends had it way worse with their groundings. A grounding is a slow humilating frustrating punishment - far more likely to bring up feelings of victimization IMHO.

Gosh, I'm really sorry you had to go through that!

[DevaMajka]

I have to admit, that this is frustrating for me. Not at anyone here, but geez.
I can't be the only one who sees "punishment" as being timeouts, spankings, groundings, taking away priveledges, etc.
I would never have thought that a punishment would be anything that anyone could do that someone didn't like, and cause that person to change their behavior (I know I'm being extreme there).

The merriam webster definition is definitely how I see "punishment" and how I assume most people do as well. "to impose a penalty on for a fault, offense, or violation "

Even if the technical definition might be right in psychology speak, I don't think that's the common usage of the term. Is it?

[chloeM]

Its interesting to me that most people are here cause they didnt enjoy being punished, but I think it kept you out of alot of trouble.Parents #1 job is not to be your friend. The people that I was friends with that also had the same kinda upbringing as me are either incarserated, dead, or are just spoiled rotten grownup that think the world revolved around them

[frenchie]

Originally Posted by chloeM

I can tell you this: As a child that grew up with no punishments, no groundings , no time outs,no consequences I believe this to be detrimetal to a child. I grew up in an upper midle class family, well educated family. My mother took this aproach and we all became drug users, all the girls got preggo at a young age and have noooo respect for my mom. We didnt feel loved either. I hated being put on the same level as her and we learned nothing, no matter how much she talked to us!!! Children need consequences early on in life that will stand out(not abusive) so that they dont feel they are invinsible like we did, and learn to respect people. Our mothers emotions stood out to us, not any punishment so we began to think we were responsible for her emotions. I can tell you out of all my friends growing up it wasnt the ones that were spanked or punished that got into trouble , it was me. I still have problems with boundaries cause I never learned them. YOu cannot reason with a 4 year old, boundaries NEED to clear!! THere are consequences in life and we had a big shocker when it came to the real world. We have a hard time saying yes, saying no, and I lost my brother to a very poor decision.I really had to learn the hard way and am still learning and its hard everyday, Im anxious about making decisions and dont know how to make good ones, I never learned. It hard to teach an older person new tricks

I had friends like you as a teen, that always encouraged me to disobey my mom. When I said "No way, my mom will kick my a$$" their response was always the same "What is she going to do, ground you? Just tell her to f*** off" Uh...yeah, and get my face knocked sideways!!!! Heck no!!!
Now, my mom beat me as a child, so I had that in the back of my head. I certainly don't agree with the abuse she put me through. I DO agree with the boundaries, limits and some of the punishments she imposed on me.

[2bluefish]

Originally Posted by chloeM

Our mothers emotions stood out to us, not any punishment so we began to think we were responsible for her emotions. ... . My mom always tried to find the underlying reason but in the real world if you shoot someone you cant use that excuse (except for mabe if your crazy)Being tired or erational does not excuse the bahavour. It is about RIGHT and WRONG.

I really appreciate what you are sharing - it is very interesting and illuminating! My parents did some things in ways I would not, but I cannot in good conscious criticize their parenting overall. I believe they did right by me - and I feel really good about the person I've become. I was not punished often, but when I was I most often felt the consequences were fair. Only one issue got to me - and that was that I sometimes paid the consequences for conflicts that I felt were my sister's fault. But that's real life too - happens all the time...

[frenchie]

Originally Posted by 2bluefish

I think this is a great example of punishment done badly - the time did not fit the crime. It was unjust. Punishment is hard to do well, because you have to have a good sense of justice.

When I was 8 my best friend, handed me some money she found at her house. When we got home and my mom found it, we discussed that we don't take things from other people's houses without asking. I explained that my friend gave it to me. She explained that my friend did not have the right, and that I need to ask the parents. I had to take the money back and apologize. And got a hug from that mom. That was it - I learned the lesson. There was no need for punishment. I was a little ashamed at first, but after the reconciliation, I felt good about myself. Grounding an 8 year old is absurd in my opinion. I was spanked, but I always felt my friends had it way worse with their groundings. A grounding is a slow humilating frustrating punishment - far more likely to bring up feelings of victimization IMHO.

Gosh, I'm really sorry you had to go through that!

I'm not a big fan of grounding either...because I got grounded for EVERYTHING!!!! Sometimes, a grounding replaced a beating though...and it came as a relief to me. I really had a screwed upbringing, and somehow, I turned out "normal". This is why I spend so much time lurking in the GD forum. I want SO bad to change the cycle (my mom was abused even worse than me). What I did take away from my upbringing though, is that there is a balance....and I know I can meet it. I don't want to resort to one extreme or the other...I just want to do what works best for my children. There were some (few) moments as a child/teen that my mom was harsh, but looking back, it was what I needed at that moment. If one method doesn't work, I move on to the next. I have set limits for myself, as to how far I will take any certain method, and then there are the methods that are totally off limits (abusive methods) My ultimate goal, is that my son (and baby on the way) feels loved, respected and trusted.

[chloeM]

i can tell you this though..i cry all the time for what I did., I wish i had of just paid the consequences and moved on, but I didnt and cant forgive myself. I lnged for discipline, I would push buttons to try to get her to do so,and by the time she realized that what she had done by the way she parented,it was too late. Although she agrees now that we needed consequences, she still uses excuses for us and herself. We turned that way cause my brother died..its soooo not true, we were like that all along she just chose not to see. I was a very emotionally intelligent young child and I actually equated her not giving consequenses as not loving us. i believe in balance as a mom. I love my kids unconditionally and they know it, have an awsome relationship (so far,Im realistic) with my kids(oldest one being 11) but set very clear boundaries and that i hope will guide them in life when Im not there. Consequences do not have to equate fear.

[3lilmonsters]

I think it's important to note that no punishment does not necessarily mean no boundries. My kids have plenty of boundries, and most of the time they function within them, but when they don't I generally don't punish them. For example, except for special occasions, food stays in the kitchen or dining room. If they come out to the living room with it a simple reminder will get them back in bounds. They are not to hurt one another. If they were to get into a physical fight I would separate them - not to punish them, but because as their mother it is my duty to make sure that they are safe. Another boundry is that all outside doors are not to be opened for any reason (except in an emergency) when I'm in the shower. I truly believe this to be a safety issue. There is a consequence for it, and it is an imposed one - if they broke this rule they would have to come to the bathroom with me so that I could keep an eye on them. We also have boundries when it comes to telling...if they come tell on one another to me I do not punish them, I ask them if they've talked to the other one about it and what their purpose was in telling me.

As for the emotions...I am hesitant to use those as a means to control. Yes, I could say "it makes me happy when you..." or "it make me sad when you...", but I'm not trying to teach them to behave based on how I'll feel about it. I may say something like "it hurts me when you...", or "I don't like it when you yell to me from another room" or "I really appreciated your help...". And though I do expose my kids to my emotions and often let them know when I'm excited or frustrated or what have you, I do tend to mute them just a bit. I might let them know that I'm frustrated with them and need a few minutes to myself, but they certainly aren't privy to whatever meltdown that may follow.

[chloeM]

Frenchie-o.t My sons middle name is Kai- good name. Is is after the Hawaiian name or Danish?

[chloeM]

My mother didnt mean to use her emotions to control us, it was just the thing that stood out the most. I was also a very well behaved straight A student, had a dancing and Art scholarship, was excepted into Emily Carr on the youth program, danced with Ballet BC. But one day i just changed my mind and there was no reason not too.And although there were rules and boundaries in the house, we didnt understand them emotionally and didnt take them seriously. My sister was an uncontrollable brat the whole way through , by the time she realizes she really had no control of us we were doing drugs and getting preggo.We really didnt understand verbal boundaries............And although my way of parenting may not always fall under the term gentle discipine,which in saying that the definition has definatly changed over the last 70+ years. I still consider myself a gentle and respectful discipliner and my kids are monkeys as boy will be, But I cant wait till they hit their teenage years,cause I know I dont have much to worry about. They will be equiped with everything they NEED,and although I dont believe that being in being primarily friends with your kids, it can and should come second and I am very good friends with my kids.Please remeberer that you are parenting from a childs point of view.....well I was once a child(I think) and this was my point of view.

[frenchie]

Originally Posted by chloeM

Frenchie-o.t My sons middle name is Kai- good name. Is is after the Hawaiian name or Danish?

Hawaiian....it's also Afrikan for ocean, but spelled Kaai.

[chloeM]

His is Danish, Im Half Danish and Half British, I wanted to use names from both countries, So its Jonah Kai Ainsley.

[*LoveBugMama*]

Answering before reading thread... So my answer is mine, not colored by what I have read.


Without punishment? Yes. I define punishment as "if you do x, I will do y to you, because it will teach you a lesson/make sure you don`t do x again/to hurt you."

Without consequenses? No, absolutlely not.
The consequenses I use are not meant to hurt, not meant to teach a lesson, not meant to ensure my son never does x again. I use consequenses when he hurts others (I will gently take him away from the situation if he has problems controlling himself). When his health is suffering, and he still doesn`t want to get dressed (I will help him get dressed if he let me, or I will say that we can`t go out without clothes when sick.)


So, in my life I can`t be the mamma or person I wan`t to be without some consequenses. But I strive to never use them as punishment. Boundaries, yes. Punishment, no.

[3lilmonsters]

Kids naturally want to please their parents (though it doesn't always seem that way!) and so I think it's easy for parents to fall into using that to their advantage, whether they mean to or not. And that, in the end, can be harmful. I have known of people who were like you...but then I've known of people that were well behaved and straight A because they were in a very puntitive environment...and when those restraints were no longer in place, the changed because there was nothing stopping them.

I come from a sizeable family...one that was big in the use of punishment. We were complemented all the time in our behavior. Six kids in a small apartment and everything was always clean. We all excelled in school, we were unbelievably polite...everyone thought that my parents had done an excelent job. I got pregnant when I was 20 and ended up a single mom, another one of my sisters ended up having lots of sex and partying pretty hard. The other kids all went a little crazy too. It was going from having very definite punishment for our 'negative' actions to having it be hit or miss...because really that's what it is in the real world. People speed all the time...but they don't always get a ticket. People have casual sex quite often...but the don't always end up pregnant. I think that is one of the dangers, if you will, of punishment. A child learns to react in response to the imposed artificial consequences, rather than out or respect for what is right.

I'm not saying that every child that is raised with punishment will turn out that way. I'm just say that imho, helping your kids with understanding the fundamental reasons why some actions are better - or more socially acceptable - than others seems to be a much better route than just punishing them.

It looks like both our parents missed out on this point...though God knows their parenting styles were at opposite ends of the spectrum

As for the friends thing...that's something that I've thought alot about. And yes, I want to be my children's friend. I think that for some people, the thought of that signifies that the parent will be weak...be unwilling to set boundries and allow their child to expirience consequences because they're afraid they'll hurt the friendship. In my case though, I really expect that for quite some time this friendship is going to be one sided. I will be their friend, I will listen to their problems, all of that...but I don't expect them to be my friend in return, if that makes any sense. I'll listen to my 7 yo talk about the problems he's having with some of his friends, or his 'financial problems' (whether he should spend that $5 he got on a cheap toy or save it for a game boy...or just blow it all on candy), but I'm not going to share the burden of my problems with them. I'm not going to tell them if I'm having boyfriend problems or one of my friends and I get into a spat. I'm not going to tell them if I haven't gotten my childsupport in a few weeks and I'm sweating whether I should pay the electric bill and risk eviction or pay the rent and risk disconnection (not that that's been a problem yet, tg).

But anyways, I'm just rambling...and putting off my homework

[Yooper]

Originally Posted by chloeM

I can tell you this: As a child that grew up with no punishments, no groundings , no time outs,no consequences I believe this to be detrimetal to a child. I grew up in an upper midle class family, well educated family. My mother took this aproach and we all became drug users, all the girls got preggo at a young age and have noooo respect for my mom. We didnt feel loved either. I hated being put on the same level as her and we learned nothing, no matter how much she talked to us!!! Children need consequences early on in life that will stand out(not abusive) so that they dont feel they are invinsible like we did, and learn to respect people. Our mothers emotions stood out to us, not any punishment so we began to think we were responsible for her emotions. I can tell you out of all my friends growing up it wasnt the ones that were spanked or punished that got into trouble , it was me. I still have problems with boundaries cause I never learned them. YOu cannot reason with a 4 year old, boundaries NEED to clear!! THere are consequences in life and we had a big shocker when it came to the real world. We have a hard time saying yes, saying no, and I lost my brother to a very poor decision.I really had to learn the hard way and am still learning and its hard everyday, Im anxious about making decisions and dont know how to make good ones, I never learned how to make good ones based on right and wrong and I sooo want to, Had to leasrn discipline the hard way from being such a young single mom( natural consequences bah ha) . It hard to teach an older person new tricks. we also learned to make excuses for our behavour, like Oh I was just feeling tired, so I did some drugs. My mom always tried to find the underlying reason but in the real world if you shoot someone you cant use that excuse (except for mabe if your crazy)Being tired or erational does not excuse the bahavour. It is about RIGHT and WRONG.But it also doesnt mean that you dont need the sleep as well.The natural consequences of drugs are death, and Id rather impose consequences and be the bad guy if it will prevent my kids from experiencing that

I am very sorry you went through this.

However, it is antedotal. How a kid (or kids) "turn out" have so many factors that we cannot take one case and pin all of the problems on discipline. I also grew up in a home with no punishment. I had boundaries, but they were always respectfully up for negotiation. I was never grounded, time-outed, logically consequenced, etc....... I did not have any problems as a result of this. At least I do not think so. I did not get in trouble with the law. I got good grades. Went to college. Yadda yadda yadda...... How a kid "turns out" involves personality of child and parent, friends, location, diet, influences, etc etc etc, and (maybe) discipline. I know plenty of people that grew up in horrible, punitive, abusive homes that also turned out to be great and productive people. I am certainly not going to take that an indicator that I should also be punitive and abusive.

I also believe people need boundaries. Punishment is not the only way to create boundaries. People do not need an imposed consequence to learn to live respectful of others and themselves. In fact, I believe imposed consequnces can actually hamper that.

[Yooper]

Originally Posted by lanamommyphd07

I think it's important to realize the strength of "punishment" in learning. Many things we learn in life are through punishment (in the scientific sense) or vicarious punishment. Take this as an example: Today I was punished a lot. A whole lot. My body is changing in size and balance and I have a lot to learn (stress learn). I bent over my desk and landed on my newly protruding belly. It didn't feel good (punishment). I now will be more tender in my movements regarding bending over desks. I will be negatively reinforced (relief from painful or unwanted experiences) by being more mindful. The negative reinforcement locks in my learning. I also tripped over some toys in my office (didn't see them--didn't look) (punishment) I will now be more mindful of the toys there. All of these can also be seen as "natural consequences" or some such newby term out there as well. For any of us to say we never impose a punishment on another human being or never allow a punishment to occur would be saying that we aren't learning a darned thing. Punishment gets a bad rap--mostly because it is the most ineffective form of child discipline, but negative reinforcement (avoiding that impending doom) IS, in fact, highly effective. Lucky kids will find their own punishments all day to curb and shape their behaviors, and have a loving parent there to kiss the booboos. But with no booboos comes no learning. Imposing some structure and limits on children is very important. We're helping them learn. We're guiding them. Structuring grocery time is not a punishment, simply because a kid would rather mess around in a toy aisle. They get the 5 minutes there and we move on. Am I mean because I make the kid leave? Absolutely not. I'm helping this young person learn to share time with a family, and learn to be helpful, etc., etc. I'm guiding. But all guidance is not going to be met by a child with a happy face. (I see that you would really like to stay here all day, maybe for a whole year, but the five minutes are done now and we must finish getting the milk). Some things in life really suck while you learn them (walking) but we keep on with it and eventually it will make sense. We have to trust those who guide us to know better than we do so that the painful experience isn't quite so bad. It's that trust that really founds good parenting. Letting a child take command in the effort to be loving is really setting someone up for future disaster. Using harsh, senseless, parentcontrol-dominated punishments that damage the psyche is a bad idea. Having limits is a fantastic one, even when kiddo is sometimes disappointed.

Kids get plenty of "boo-boos" without me artificially imposing them. I do not think I should protect my child from all natural consequnces. Nor do I think it is even remotely possible. We do not use punishments (maybe....depending on how the definition shakes out) but my 3.5 yo has no trouble understanding that we cannot spend all day in the toy aisle.

[DevaMajka]

Originally Posted by 3lilmonsters

I think it's important to note that no punishment does not necessarily mean no boundries. My kids have plenty of boundries, and most of the time they function within them, but when they don't I generally don't punish them.

Same here

Originally Posted by CrunchyTamara

Without punishment? Yes. I define punishment as "if you do x, I will do y to you, because it will teach you a lesson/make sure you don`t do x again/to hurt you."

Without consequenses? No, absolutlely not.
The consequenses I use are not meant to hurt, not meant to teach a lesson, not meant to ensure my son never does x again. I use consequenses when he hurts others (I will gently take him away from the situation if he has problems controlling himself). When his health is suffering, and he still doesn`t want to get dressed (I will help him get dressed if he let me, or I will say that we can`t go out without clothes when sick.)

I love your post. I especially agree with the bolded part.

Originally Posted by Yooper

We do not use punishments (maybe....depending on how the definition shakes out)

That's funny. lol

[DevaMajka]

Ok, I think I kinda got it now. (I'm obsessive compulsive. lol. I was not the kid in school that could just learn random facts for tests- I had to understand WHY those were the right answers.)

And I realized that the reason it's important to me, is that, deep down in my soul, I believe that punishments are not only not necessary, but are often counterproductive (what I think of as punishments, anyways). It's not that I want to categorize everything I do as non-punitive, because I'm not perfect. I'll freely admit that I yell sometimes, and that's punitive.

So
yelling=punishment, because it is aversive and it generally does reduce the behavior, and in the moment I do intend it to do so. and it acts as a penalty for whatever (in the moment).

carrying in the store, does not seem to be punishment the way I do it, because it's not a penalty for a fault. It's not intended to reduce the behavior, and it doesn't.
I mean, it's hard to tell for sure, but the last time this happened, ds wanted to ride in the cart at the store. The carts were all outside, it was raining, I didn't know how to work the quarter deposit thing, and I was only getting a few things. And I didn't know it would be a big deal to him. So he cried through the store, and I carried him during the times he wouldn't come with me. I guarantee that the same thing would have happened the next time we went to the store, if I hadn't gotten a cart (ds kept reminding me that he wanted a cart). kwim?

And carrying in and of itself is not aversive. It would seem more punitive if I were harsh with it, or tried to use words, or some other thing that would serve to "teach him" or to make him feel bad about what he was doing. But I don't.

But I wonder, what about things that are generally thought of as punishments, that don't change behavior? Like, when I yell as ds for whining, it certainly doesn't reduce the whining. But I'd still consider the yelling punishment (I don't like yell and go crazy. But I definitely get snappy). I'm sure HE takes it as such. But the whining goes on and on and on. lol. (I'm starting to learn to live with it. )

[abac]

Originally Posted by CrunchyTamara

Answering before reading thread... So my answer is mine, not colored by what I have read.


Without punishment? Yes. I define punishment as "if you do x, I will do y to you, because it will teach you a lesson/make sure you don`t do x again/to hurt you."

Without consequenses? No, absolutlely not.
The consequenses I use are not meant to hurt, not meant to teach a lesson, not meant to ensure my son never does x again. I use consequenses when he hurts others (I will gently take him away from the situation if he has problems controlling himself). When his health is suffering, and he still doesn`t want to get dressed (I will help him get dressed if he let me, or I will say that we can`t go out without clothes when sick.)


So, in my life I can`t be the mamma or person I wan`t to be without some consequenses. But I strive to never use them as punishment. Boundaries, yes. Punishment, no.

Yes, yes, yes to the bolded part. And Deva33mommy, I understand where you're coming from, and I agree with you, for the most part, about what is and is not punishment. I think it's silly to say that anything that makes a child unhappy is punishment. (Although, since we all know that we don't MAKE anybody feel anything, and we are all responsible for our own emotions, we can't technically punish a child, right? Cause if they're unhappy, that's under their own control, thus they are punishing themselves, right? [I'm being entirely sarcastic, of course, just trying to illustrate the ridiculousness of this all.])

To answer the OP, no I don't think punishment is neccessary and using punishment goes against my personal morals. People who use punishment have very different parenting goals than I do.