School BANS homework! - Page 4

[jkpmomtoboys]

Originally Posted by aniT

You are missing the point. Once again, the point is, YOU CANNOT PUNISH A CHILD FOR THEIR PARENTS ACTIONS. Not returning their homework on time in K is a parental responsibility not a 5 year old child's.

I have one in 1st grade, not Kindergarten, but by 1st grade the kids are absolutely responsible for their own homework. They do it themselves once a week and remember to get it in the backpack. I don't know very many hand-held 1st graders like you guys are describing...

[Heffernhyphen]

Originally Posted by aniT

. . . 5 years olds are not capable of remembering to return their homework on their own accord and punishing them for forgetting it is punishing them for someone else's action.

Well, I guess we'll just have to respectfully disagree on this point. I had few students who couldn't manage this. I think they can do a lot more than you are giving them credit for.

How about this example: A baby bites her mother while nursing. Mom pulls her off the breast and says, "No, no. Don't bite Mommy. That hurts." The baby understands the consequence of her action: I bite/I lose some breast time. She learns. Why do you expect less of that same child in five years? They can and will learn given time and practice. They may not learn, however, if they know Mom will do it for me.

[Heffernhyphen]

Originally Posted by jkpmomtoboys

. . .by 1st grade the kids are absolutely responsible for their own homework. They do it themselves once a week and remember to get it in the backpack. I don't know very many hand-held 1st graders like you guys are describing...

Thank you, Jen. I was beginning to consider a career change . . . apparently I'd make a great Marine Corps drill sergeant.

[WuWei]

Susan,

I certainly don't envy you your position and situation. I am sad that you feel you need to defend your beliefs and practices. I come from the position that I want our son to retain his intrinsic love of learning. And I can't wrap my head around how compulsory homework and punishment for failure to perform meets that desire. But, as someone asked earlier, we do homeschool/unschool and ds doesn't have to do anything he doesn't want to do; and he learns joyfully all day, every day!

(I usually don't post here and just happened upon this thread in 'new posts' and was intrigued by the title.)


Pat

[HelloKitty]

Originally Posted by WuWei

I come from the position that I want our son to retain his intrinsic love of learning. And I can't wrap my head around how compulsory homework and punishment for failure to perform meets that desire.

Yes this.

Sorry you are feeling attacked Heffernhyphen. I don't think anything on this thread was meant as a personal attack against you or your methods, just a difference of opinion about them.

I'm anti-homework but not anti-teachers!

[Heffernhyphen]

"No HK it can't possibly be the system. It's the children who didn't learn how to be homework responsible in Kindergarten and will be a huge burden on society as adults b/c they will never learn to be responsible!"

followed by . . .

" "


followed by . . .

"Probably my fault too, I didn't punish him severely enough when he didn't complete said Kindergarten homework. I'm so ashamed."

followed by . . .

"Does it REALLY make sense to you to punish the child because of the parents actions? I mean honestly does it??? We all know that five year olds are NOT in control of their environment.

I don't really think it is so much writing the letter B 20 times that everyone is upset about, although some might be. It is the fact that it is REQUIRED. It is the fact that you expect the child to remember to do it/remember that they have to do it/ remember to bring it back/remember to turn it in.. and if this is not accomplished you punish the child by taking away their recess which is an important part of the day."

followed by . . .

"You are missing the point. Once again, the point is, YOU CANNOT PUNISH A CHILD FOR THEIR PARENTS ACTIONS. Not returning their homework on time in K is a parental responsibility not a 5 year old child's."

Yeah, sort of feels personal.

But why am I getting my panties in such a wad? I'm not even teaching anymore. :

[LauraLoo]

Heffernhypen -- I edited my post. I apologize.

I'm really not completely anti-homework. I just want my child to rip open his backpack at the end of the day and say "Look, Mom! I did xxxx today and tonight I want to find out about yyyy!" I'd be thrilled and probably drop everything that I was doing to start on it right away. But if my son brought home a work sheet that made him write 20 B's, it would make me very, very sad.

My son practices writing on his own outside of school. Today he was spelling all the names of the rooms in our house - kitchen, playroom, livingroom, bedroom, bathroom. There's only two "Bs" in that list. I'm just glad that he wants to do without being asked because he wants to.

I think there are ways to get the same results with homework, such as practicing writing, without making the assignments seem so sterile.

[flyingspaghettimama]

HH, . I hear that you feel attacked, but try to remember that many of us here are parents who have struggled first-hand with the homework battles at home, witnessed or participated in it first-hand, and are feeling the need for change in the status quo. Defending the status quo brings out strong emotions. It's not you, it's the argument. Removal of recess for Kindergartener is very controversial, and many mamas have come to this forum seeking support, to challenge teachers for doing so.

I just suggest you read some of the works by progressive teachers, here http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...d.php?t=626394. They present GD for the classroom. These are teachers who've taught with some of the "toughest kids" in America, who have found ways to teach that respect the learner and the teacher equally. It's not about taking out one piece of the puzzle (i.e. punishments), but replacing the whole puzzle with a new paradigm of how children learn, based upon brain research, personal experience, and educational method research. The alternative is neither anarchy nor negligence.

I wish you could visit my daughter's school and see the love of learning, excitement, and freedom that work together to create a community of caring individuals. They do not have rote homework; they do not have reward or punishment systems; they do learn how to form letters and write and read and do math by the time they graduate. They walk in the hallways and treat each other with respect. There are 30 children to a class, and it's one of the most coveted schools to work at in the district. It's very cool.

[HelloKitty]

Heffernhyphen comments were made about a story that I shared about a teacher I had an IRL relationship with - they had nothing to do with you - and my comments that followed were about that teacher - again nothing to do with you.

I can not speak for anyone else but I am sorry if you thought otherwise about my posts or took them personally, that truly was not my intention.

[Potty Diva]

Oh I am so glad Alfie Kohn came up in this discussion.

I'm an English Education major and have ready vowed to NEVER give out homework, we can accomplish tasks in class (I really think 50 minutes is ample time to do this and most of my husband's coworkers do the same thing). BUT, my education professor (foundations of ed and development of adolescents) loves to go on and on about giving LOTS of homework.

So, i was flipping through my Foundations text and guess who I saw? ALFIE!!!
He has a two page blurb in the text and I am wondering how my professor is going to handle this(it in the 2 chapters after the one we are working on).

Although I desire to be a teacher I certainly do not desire to be the kind of one-size-fits-all teacher that some of these professors are trying to mold.

In fact most, if not all of the students in my class work deligently to complete projects EXACTLY like the model dictates. Thy don't see how you can create a unique project while still following the guidelines, yet I make 100% and they scoff at my "differences".

The point? Good teachers will be able to teach so children can learn, homework or not, though I am in favor of NOT.

[TRIBE]

Originally Posted by HelloKitty

Probably my fault too, I didn't punish him severely enough when he didn't complete said Kindergarten homework. I'm so ashamed.

Originally Posted by aniT

Another example, the child DOES their homework but in the rush to get out the door in the morning Mom forgets the homework. Since we all know that the five year old isn't going to remember to bring it back on his/her own. Heck my 8 year old still asks me what day of the week it is. So then the child is punished.

This was where we were at in public school. The boys would do their homework, grudgingly, put it in their bookbag, go to school and never turn it in. When we would do a bookbag clean out we would find several nights worth of homework in the bag. The teacher expected them to remember to turn in their homework much like HH system. And sure some 8year olds have great memory and turn in their work. And then you have 8yo who lead busy lives and have trouble remembering simple tasks no matter how bright they are (my ds2 was one of the top in his class but still couldnt remember to turn in his work)


I don't really think it is so much writing the letter B 20 times that everyone is upset about, although some might be. It is the fact that it is REQUIRED. It is the fact that you expect the child to remember to do it/remember that they have to do it/ remember to bring it back/remember to turn it in.. and if this is not accomplished you punish the child by taking away their recess which is an important part of the day.

Right. Homeowrk for the sake of homework or so parents can see what they do all day is not effectual. Homework b/c the child CHOOSES to bring homw work and show off what they are doing will learn and are learning.

Look at it this way, your employer is REQUIRED BY LAW, to give you a 10 or 15 minute break if you work four hours. If you work six hours you get a 15 minute break AND a 30 minute lunch. If you work eight hours you get two 15 minute breaks plus the 30 minute lunch. If your employer told you, sorry I want you to work through your lunch, they could get in trouble for it. Yet it is perfectly OK to take a child's break/lunch away from them for trivial things such as forgetting to bring back their homework when it was THEIR PARENTS fault in the first place??? Do you NOT see what is wrong with this picture?

Thats a perfect analogy and I couldn't have said it better myself. Why is it ok to take away childrens breaks when they are in school 6.5hrs a day (on avg). They arent even given a 30 minute lunch these days! Where ARE our childrens rights?

Originally Posted by flyingspaghettimama

HH, . I hear that you feel attacked, but try to remember that many of us here are parents who have struggled first-hand with the homework battles at home, witnessed or participated in it first-hand, and are feeling the need for change in the status quo. Defending the status quo brings out strong emotions. It's not you, it's the argument. Removal of recess for Kindergartener is very controversial, and many mamas have come to this forum seeking support, to challenge teachers for doing so.

I just suggest you read some of the works by progressive teachers, here http://mothering.com/discussions/sho...d.php?t=626394. They present GD for the classroom. These are teachers who've taught with some of the "toughest kids" in America, who have found ways to teach that respect the learner and the teacher equally. It's not about taking out one piece of the puzzle (i.e. punishments), but replacing the whole puzzle with a new paradigm of how children learn, based upon brain research, personal experience, and educational method research. The alternative is neither anarchy nor negligence.

:

Originally Posted by HelloKitty

Heffernhyphen comments were made about a story that I shared about a teacher I had an IRL relationship with - they had nothing to do with you - and my comments that followed were about that teacher - again nothing to do with you.

I can not speak for anyone else but I am sorry if you thought otherwise about my posts or took them personally, that truly was not my intention.

:

HH I am not trying to be offensive or attack you personally. You did say that recess was taken away as a punishment, however. That I found extremly offensive and couldn't not respond to it.

I also have to keep in mind I come from a different school of thought. I hated school with every fiber of my being and homework was a huge punishment. I can even remember one night spending over an hour on what should have been a simple question.I read every sentence in my Social Studies text chapter over and over, never finding the answer. My mother, grandmother and aunt also searched the text. It was frustrating knowing I would be punished harshly for not completing my work b/c we could not find the answer.

I struggled with sending my children to public school. I knew in my heart it was not the place for them but didn't know of the options other than private school at the time. As I learned of all the other options out there i started working towards giving these options to my children.

They now attend a freddom school, a democratically, child run school. There are rules, there are punishments. Just as in real life if you break the law you are going to have consequences that fit the crime. The sentences are met out by our judicial committee that is run by 2 students and a staff, who are al lon the same equal level.

The kids are learning everyday! Yes they spend a great deal of time playing, but that is how they learn. And they are learning for the fun of it. They aren't being praised or punitively punished. And yet they manage to follow the "laws" fairly well.

Just yesterday a group of 8/9/10yo were playing mario brothers on the computer and decided to have a math contest. For the heck of it they were doing multiplication tables and square roots. Where in a typical public (or private) school institution would something like this happen? And they manage to learn, and be responsible, and learn responsibility all without homework! Yay!

Stepping off my soapbox for now so we can go to school

[GuildJenn]

I've been following this discussion with interest. I think it's really good of you to be so open about your methods.

Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen

Now, on to the archaic reward portion of the system. If they made it to the end of the day with all three scoops still sitting on top of the cone, they got a "sprinkle." Once they got nine sprinkles, they got to go to the Treasure Chest and get a toy. If they made it to Friday without losing any scoops, they got to have lunch with me. Which, shockingly enough, was the best reward they could want. They enjoyed my company and got lots of praise from other teachers and the principal. I'm sure they'll need years of therapy to get over that emotional damage, but at the time, it made them light up like Christmas trees.

Okay, let me have it. I was evil to let them know when they broke a rule (dirty four-letter-word THAT is) and even worse to reward them for not breaking rules.

Well to be honest this system would bother me a bit - food symbols and cheap toys as extrinstic rewards for kids who are at an age where generally they like to learn and to please intrinsically. I understand it's common in schools (and worked in one where it was, until the school switched away from that kind of thing), but I really recommend Barbara Coloroso (who was a teacher) as a good and pragmatic writer on this one - I think Kids are Worth It is a good entry point into her writing, although she has a whole programme for teachers too.

Do you really prefer that your child have a teacher who has low expectations for your kid? One who says mediocrity is just dandy. Or wouldn't you prefer one who challenges them? To be completely honest, the kind of teacher you seem to be asking for would be a whole lot easier to be.

I rarely get worked up when I get engaged in these MDC dramas, and I've been flamed by the best of them. But I have to say, this one is beginning to chap my ass. Teachers work their asses off trying to make a difference because we care about kids. Then we have to listen to this kind of shit from parents. Oh, that teacher is SO bad because she said, "Good job" or expected a kid to do what she asked. It's really frustrating. Thank God we make so much money and get that cush company car to help take our mind off the complete lack of respect and parental support we get.

Lots of people work for what they care about, but that does not mean that parents have to universally support whatever you do if they disagree. I do think the feedback you're getting here is valuable; how you apply it is up to you.

I can personally think of a number of ways to manage the question of "how to practice the letter B" without a homework system.

As far as in-class time goes, you said in an earlier post that you were creating powerpoint presentations - personally, I myself would rather that my 5 or 6 year old were practicing writing - concrete, fine motor skills - in school at that age. There is plenty of time to do powerpoint when they are secure in their concrete skills (and better readers). I think a lot of works on child development would back me up on that.

Obviously we disagree on this but I think you may be mistaking the flash and excitement of screen time for skills building. I don't think this is your personal problem; I think it's a general problem in the system. I'm just sharing my view with you here.

My personal experience is also that the kids who most need to practice fine motor skills were also the kids who didn't, in fact, get their homework done or who also needed time to run around and develop their fine motor skills through free play. Then they got into the rewards/punishments system and while it works well under certain ages, eventually the external rewards couldn't keep up and they often got lost in the system at that point.

Just my two cents. It's not as clear cut as "homework is bad; rewards are always bad" I don't think, especially dealing in groups of children. But questioning those assumptions might add to your teaching.

[Aeress]

I come from an early childhood background. I work within an organization that promotes education for young children and often times I have disagreements with my colleagues concerning how best to teach. I hear how fustrated teachers are with homework and the requirements that the school district puts on them. Schools are systems and they don't change easily.

My daughters pre-k teacher left her job as a kindergarten teacher becuase she was tired of all the rewards/punishing of young children and all the testing and standards. She is happier in her current position but still, very fustrated.

I do question the current system that schools are using becuase they aren't working for our children.

[antannie]

my daughter went to school in a district that gave an hour plus of homework for all grades starting at grade 1. Usually about 2 hours worth and 4 hours on the weekend and it really ate into the time we had with her (just weekends) When she moved in with us last January she moved to a school that doesn't do much homework but has a 15 minute a night reading and once a week paragraph about something she had read. The other homework was spelling practice and math and it took a very short time. This year in Grade 7 she has a no homework teacher othr than the reading which isn't checked.

She has gone from a C and lower student to lots of As and Bs and yesterday we found out that one of her projects won a prize in our region and she will be competing in the Historica Faire on the next level after that. (Provincial, then National). All this from a kid that her schools before this one labeled her as having ADHD, failing grade 5, although they didn't keep her back, and being 3 years behind in reading and math.

Extra homework discouraged her. SHe is now one of the top students in her class.

[aniT]

Originally Posted by jkpmomtoboys

I have one in 1st grade, not Kindergarten, but by 1st grade the kids are absolutely responsible for their own homework. They do it themselves once a week and remember to get it in the backpack. I don't know very many hand-held 1st graders like you guys are describing...

I am not sure my 8 year old could manage this on her own. She is homeschooled this year so we will use Girl Scouts as an example. She has sharing. She will carry something around with her for a half hour that she is going to take to GS to share. When we get there she will generally have done one of two things,

1. set it down just before we left to put on her shoes/coat whatever and forgot it, or
2. Left it in the car and I will find it after I get home.

There is also the case of my 13 year old. She got Nickeback tickets for Christmas. The concert was last Friday. She carried those tickets around for hours before the concert. She even yelled at Dh for bending them the day before. So her and DH leave for the concert, I take my 8 year old to her GS cookie sale and then I get a call. DD forgot the concert tickets. I had to drive back home and get them and DH had to drive back into town to meet me at the cookie sale to pick them up. It's a good thing this was discovered BEFORE they got on the train.

The sad thing is, if it had been my DH that had been responsible for the tickets I would have made sure they had them before they left, but since it was DD, I was sure they would not be forgotten.

Now if kids older kids do this with things that are important to them, imagine how easy it is to forget homework they didn't want to do in the first place. BTW, both my kids are TAG students as was my husband. And he would forget his HEAD if it wasn't attached. No amount of punishment is going to change this.

Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen

Yeah, sort of feels personal.

But why am I getting my panties in such a wad? I'm not even teaching anymore. :

I am sorry you felt attacked. I meant more of a you as in the system you represented. It wasn't really meant as a personal attack. It is obvious you aren't the only teacher that does these things. If you were, most of us wouldn't be here complaining about this problem.

[Heffernhyphen]

Thanks for all of the apologies and advice. Unfortunately, the main thought I'm left with at the end of this thread is why do I even want to teach? It's by far the hardest job I've ever had, the worst paid, and the least respected. I always thought I'd go back when DS entered K, but now I'm not so sure. Glad I still have a year and a half to contemplate.

[monkeys4mama]

Haven't read the entire thread but I just have to say that I think my kids school and teachers have handled homework well. They have modest amounts, appropriate to their age and abilities. None of it is excessive or overly burdensome to child or parents. And I think it helps children to learn how to do work independently outside of the school environment, which is a skill they will need later in life. If it were overdone or if it were stupid work or if the kids were miserable as a result or not having time to play and be kids or whatever, then I might complain. But as it is, I think the balance is just about right. I can see where homework might be abused or overdone in some cases. But I also think it can have a positive place in kids' education.

[BackToOrganic]

Homework has been a real stressor in our family. Evenings are a mad rush to get everything done, from the time they get home, until bedtime. I find it hard to find time to teach them the life skills that I feel they need. What about the responsibilities they have at home ? There's little time, if any, to play, and there is very little time for family. And we only have one extracurricular activity outside the home.

My 9 yo daughter gets her math done in class, just so she doesn't have to bring it home. So the teacher decided today that dd needs a "challenge", and is now giving her an extra 15 minutes of math just so she has some math to do at home.

Next year, all 3 dc's will be coming home with homework. My 6 yo ds's teacher has already told me that she'll be giving it every night next year! (He's looping)

[Starflower]

Originally Posted by BackToOrganic

My 9 yo daughter gets her math done in class, just so she doesn't have to bring it home. So the teacher decided today that dd needs a "challenge", and is now giving her an extra 15 minutes of math just so she has some math to do at home.

That makes no sense to me at all. I would be totally : I'm curious to find out what happens with the situation here - do you plan to talk to her teacher about it? Is your DD really not being challenged? Or is she just efficient?

I don't really see how adding 15 minutes of homework is going to challenge someone. It would just annoy me (as the child or the parent). Perhaps a better option might be to suggest some other math-related activities for your family to enjoy together or math games to play if your DD needs a challenge.

I remember feeling unchallenged in art class. When I was mimicking Matisse and Dali paintings in my freshman year at high school, I would have really benefited from my teacher mentioning who the artists were and suggesting a trip to the library. I didn't actually discover art history until I was in college. I feel like I missed out on a lot due to my own ignorance. My parents weren't able to help in this department, but I think my teacher could have been much more effective in my education.

Of course, our art classes were kind of a joke there anyway...... not because the teachers were incompetent, but because they ended up with all the "discipline cases" in their classes. I think most of them would've preferred to teach rather than babysit.

The high school kids' art that I see from around here is amazing!!

I also think that music and art are very necessary in a PS setting at all levels. For example, music classes teach so much more than music - social skills/cooperation, math skills, listening, etc. (These programs were always first in line for the ax when it came to funding when I was a kid. I doubt that's changed much.)

And music classes generally do have homework - most people really do need to practice to improve their playing skills!

DD is making a mess now. Gotta go.

[trinity6232000]

My dd has homework in Kindergarten maybe twice a week. Usually it's practicing her letters. I don't
mind usually, but when dd gets a busy work assignment and we have something to do (or something
we would rather do) then I don't make it a priority.

Once I ran into one of the Mom's who volunteer at the school, and this came up. She said to me "OH
well, you might want to get those assignments in. You know Mrs. R keeps track of all of that right?".
I replied "Um, what is it listed on her permanent record or something?".

Their in Kindergarten. I'm sorry if dd and I feel like cutting pictures out of magazines instead of coloring
a picture of a bear that's "homework" then we're cutting pictures and bear goes in the trash.

Even though my dd attends school (it's a small church school) we're a very unschooling family. Through
cooking, nature walks, reading for pleasure, long talks with me about why's and how's. It's far more
important to follow dd's path of learning, than to hand in assignments.

I have a feeling that in the future I might get into trouble with teachers on this subject. Maybe dd
will get a lower grade because her Mom sucks. Thankfully I don't really believe in grades being
a measure of information learned, so I'll hope that dd can except that. If not then I will gladly help
her get her assignments in on time, because it's important to her.

Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen

I think you'd be surprised how many children can and will live up to the expectations a respected adult puts on them.

This statement made me feel very uncomfortable. I don't want my dd to learn to live up to anybodies
expectations. If I felt like her motives for doing anything were to live up to my (or any person, adult
or child) expectations I would feel very sad.

Originally Posted by Heffernhyphen

Thanks for all of the apologies and advice. Unfortunately, the main thought I'm left with at the end of this thread is why do I even want to teach? It's by far the hardest job I've ever had, the worst paid, and the least respected. I always thought I'd go back when DS entered K, but now I'm not so sure. Glad I still have a year and a half to contemplate.

Your right, it is hard, your not paid enough, and sadly not many people really give credit to the teachers
of the world. Maybe in the next year and a half you will feel called into another profession. Also you will
never know the full impact you have as a teacher. Most teachers never get a full report from past students
and how they helped or inspired them, BUT as a teacher if your doing your best you are making a strong
impact on their lives. That is something to really find pride in.