Can You Be too Positive? - Page 2

[flyjawn]

Originally Posted by Lousli

It isn't a "hard pill to swallow." It is a load of crap. It is all well and good and easy to point fingers and say "She must have been afraid" and live in your perfect golden bubble world where as long as you aren't afraid, everything will be fine.

i just wanted to say that i agree with you about this. i strongly believe in the power of the mind and positive thinking but i also acknowledge that things can happen that are simply out of our control. and you shouldn't feel guilty or like you have to justify your birth experience.

i also have a friend who was perfectly healthy on a thursday at 27 weeks pregnant and by saturday gave birth to a 1 pound baby because of sudden onset pre-eclampsia.

i focus all my energy on imagining the "perfect" homebirth (my second) but i acknowledge that anything can happen.

[Jimibell]

Crunchy Mama
I think you have a beautiful attitude toward birth. Positive feelings cannot make something go wrong. But I do like what one pp wrote about how expectations can set you up for disappointment.

I was very positive for #1 and I was definately traumatized by the pain. But I would never say to someone "prepare for the worst"! What's the point? It's just not humanly possible. Enjoy your pregnancy!!

[Jimibell]

Originally Posted by Lousli

That is written just like someone who never had spontaneous rupture of membranes at 36 weeks with no forewarning and subsequently birthed a 5 pound baby. And then in the second pregnancy, had a viral illness that caused vomiting and diarreah accompanied by dehydration and contractions every 3 minutes. Which led to rupture of membranes at 33 weeks followed by the birth of a 4 pound baby. Exactly how did fear make my water break? Or give me stomach flu?

It isn't a "hard pill to swallow." It is a load of crap. It is all well and good and easy to point fingers and say "She must have been afraid" and live in your perfect golden bubble world where as long as you aren't afraid, everything will be fine. Well why don't you come and take a trip over to the preemie/NICU forum and come down off your high horse and listen to the stories of women who were peacefully making their way through pregnancy only to have their dreams shattered with the births of their tiny infants. Seriously, I'd like you to go and tell this to my friend Amys1st, who's 24 week baby was discovered entering her birth canal with one foot and had to be delivered by emergency c-section at 1 pound 12 ounces.

Reading this and your other posts makes me think that you're directing your anger and hurt anywhere you can and not really dealing with your feelings. How does someone wanting to remain positive or believe in the natural process of the body make them "be on a high horse"? No one is saying that you caused what happened to you. No one is judging you.

Fear does cause strong hormones to be released and can inhibit labor, this is a fact! A baby having health issues is a completely different topic and has nothing to do with this thread.

[Lousli]

Actually, I don't have anger about my birth anymore. Sure, I'm disappointed by what heppened, and I mourn the birth I wish I had had. I just feel, from reading many threads such as this, that often people that have less than ideal birth circumstances do get blamed here, and jusdged, and criticized. I often see people feeling they have to justify their births. I have talked to many a preemie mama here who gets furious reading about how certain diets will prevent PTL or preeclampsia, or how contractions can be stopped with a little wine or rest. The attitude often does seem to be that if you do everything right and believe hard enough, it will wwork out perfectly for you. And you know what? That isn't always true.

I do believe that this deals with this thread. The question was, "Can you be too positive?" IMO, yes. If you're setting your expectations that everything with your birth will be peaceful and perfect and painless and nothing could possibly go wrong, while that is a great hope to have, you have a lot to live up to if things do happen badly.

I really think it is difficult for people who have only had great experiences to wrap their heads around how hurtful threads can be when they talk about the power of positive thinking as if it is some magic bullet that will protect you no matter what.

[crunchy_mama]

Originally Posted by Lousli

Actually, I don't have anger about my birth anymore. Sure, I'm disappointed by what heppened, and I mourn the birth I wish I had had. I just feel, from reading many threads such as this, that often people that have less than ideal birth circumstances do get blamed here, and jusdged, and criticized. I often see people feeling they have to justify their births. I have talked to many a preemie mama here who gets furious reading about how certain diets will prevent PTL or preeclampsia, or how contractions can be stopped with a little wine or rest. The attitude often does seem to be that if you do everything right and believe hard enough, it will wwork out perfectly for you. And you know what? That isn't always true.

I do believe that this deals with this thread. The question was, "Can you be too positive?" IMO, yes. If you're setting your expectations that everything with your birth will be peaceful and perfect and painless and nothing could possibly go wrong, while that is a great hope to have, you have a lot to live up to if things do happen badly.

I really think it is difficult for people who have only had great experiences to wrap their heads around how hurtful threads can be when they talk about the power of positive thinking as if it is some magic bullet that will protect you no matter what.

I am sorry for your experience. However, please read what I wrote before making sweeping and inaccurate generalizations as to what I am implying or believe. I am was trying to get support for the positive side as I am surrounded by a negative birth environment. As I said before I do not believe that I am immune to any "bad" thing, as others have said I also don't think that it is yours or anyone else's fault when such things happen. I do not see the point on dwelling on the negatives when (1) I cannot change it and (2) the chances are small as it is.

[RedPony]

I was accused of being too positive several times while planning a hb with my first. I also NEVER doubted my body's ability to birth my baby. It all came out (no pun intended ) beautifully, but then, I knew it would.

[Lousli]

Originally Posted by crunchy_mama

I am sorry for your experience. However, please read what I wrote before making sweeping and inaccurate generalizations as to what I am implying or believe. I am was trying to get support for the positive side as I am surrounded by a negative birth environment. As I said before I do not believe that I am immune to any "bad" thing, as others have said I also don't think that it is yours or anyone else's fault when such things happen. I do not see the point on dwelling on the negatives when (1) I cannot change it and (2) the chances are small as it is.

Okay. You asked if there were any thoughts. I guess you only wanted to hear thoughts that meshed with yours.

I don't feel I'm making sweeping and inaccurate generalizations, but if you think I am, I guess there's no point in me continuing to try and explain.

[Jimibell]

Originally Posted by Lousli

Actually, I don't have anger about my birth anymore. Sure, I'm disappointed by what heppened, and I mourn the birth I wish I had had. I just feel, from reading many threads such as this, that often people that have less than ideal birth circumstances do get blamed here, and jusdged, and criticized. I often see people feeling they have to justify their births. I have talked to many a preemie mama here who gets furious reading about how certain diets will prevent PTL or preeclampsia, or how contractions can be stopped with a little wine or rest. The attitude often does seem to be that if you do everything right and believe hard enough, it will wwork out perfectly for you. And you know what? That isn't always true.

I do believe that this deals with this thread. The question was, "Can you be too positive?" IMO, yes. If you're setting your expectations that everything with your birth will be peaceful and perfect and painless and nothing could possibly go wrong, while that is a great hope to have, you have a lot to live up to if things do happen badly.

I really think it is difficult for people who have only had great experiences to wrap their heads around how hurtful threads can be when they talk about the power of positive thinking as if it is some magic bullet that will protect you no matter what.

who said that it is like a magic bullet that will protect you no matter what??
I've never seen anything of the sort (not that I've read every post here or anything).

the only blaming and judging that I've seen in this thread is by you.

I think your posts are a bit confusing. It seems to me that you do have a lot of anger and resentment and right now your directing that at those who have had healthy birth experiences and that your motivation for responding to this thread is not a sincere attempt to give good advice.

So maybe if you can clarify what it is you're trying to say? I read: "being positive can hurt you because you may have a sick baby or a bad experience."

I find a gap in logic with this argument, if that is your point, because there are many things that can go wrong and there is no way to anticipate them all. Also, it has been shown that fear and negativity can adversely affect you but I have never heard of positive thinking causing health problems or bad experiences. Maybe you are confusing positive thinking with a lack of information or support, or poor decision making, or unrealistic expectations?

Also, when I said that this had nothing to with this thread, I was referring to your claim that people with good birth experiences judge those with bad (I think it a nutshell that's what you're saying?). That is another topic maybe to be taken up on your own thread?

I don't think Crunchy mama is unwilling to hear other points of view, I just think that it is confusing when you are talking about 2 different topics and your point is not really clear (not that I'm speaking for her, it is only my impression of your posts and hers).
And anyone has the right to disagree on a post, even the one asking for input.

[SublimeBirthGirl]

Though I do realize there is a small group of (mostly) UCers who think if you believe hard enough, nothing will go wrong, I doubt that's the case for most. Most homebirthers seem to acknowledge that something can go wrong, but that it's unlikely, and recognize fear as something that can have actual physiological consequences during labor. You can go into labor fearless and 100% positive and still have something go wrong-I think most of us realize and accept that.

[Lousli]

Originally Posted by reducereuserecycle

No wonder your friend with the upcoming hospital birth is so worried. If I was planning a hospital birth I would would be a total wreck.

Originally Posted by momto l&a

Being scared is what gets a person in trouble.
If I where doing a hospital birth I probably would be afraid not knowing what terrible things they would want to do to me. At home I am in charge of what goes on.

Originally Posted by reducereuserecycle

I do believe this statement.
I beleive that many complications are a result of fear, not just in childbirth, but in life. Fear can take over a person and affect their overall wellness. I believe in the power of positive thinking. If I have a fear, I get to the bottom of it and deal with it so it does not take me over.

Originally Posted by Sijae

But fear does change your situation. It effects your body physcially which is quite pertinant in a birth situation and it also effects your reality. Your thoughts DO effect your reality. A hard pill to swallow when hard and sad things happen to you but your thoughts/emotions/energy are a factor.
Laura

Originally Posted by kathan12904

I truly believe your mindset does affect your birth. Thats how I think those women who have "painless labors" do it, they don't expect pain, they don't intend pain; pain doesn't happen. Fear and birth do not mix. We're all just smart primates, don't ya know, and as members of the animal kingdom, we have a specific reflex designed to keep us and our babies safe in case of danger. If we sense danger while in labor ie:feel afraid, our body will not want to continue with the process until it is assured that danger has passed. This is just as true of invented fears and outside stressors today as it was for stalking lions once upon a time. I just read a post in another forum where a woman commented that she had had a serious fear of two specific complications during pregnancy and ended up having those complications at her birth. I think that is a case of the chicken and egg dillemma: Did she create those complications by thinking of them, or did she think of those complications so much because her body sensed they were coming? .

Originally Posted by SublimeBirthGirl

I believe in maternal instincts. If yours are saying everything is fine, it probably is.

Are we reading the same thread? It sounds to me that people strongly feel that fear is what "gets you into trouble", actually creates complicatins, physically affects your body and your "reality". Also, if your instincts say things are fine, they probably are (so I guess my instincts were pretty f'ed up then? I dunno). And if some of that doesn't sound like judgement of a hospital birth, I don't know what is!

I tried, really tried, in my initial post to simply say that my positive thoughts set the expectation for a good birthing experience too high. That in my case, not leaving room for doubts meant that I was unprepared to handle the emotional aftermath of a bad outcome. I do not think that is an uncommon scenario when people are so dead-set on having a certain birth experience that they are devastated when it doesn't work out. I have no problem with positive thinking, and I agree that dwelling on fears or complications that might arise is not productive. But not allowing them to enter one's mind at all, in my personal opinion is also unhelpful. It is setting the bar too high if things go wrong.

I think being too positive can be compared to having unrealistic expectations, if the expectation is clearly that nothing bad will ever happen. People often say that they know that something could go wrong, but they often seem to be thinking "but that won't happen to me, because..." Which is a fallacy. It can happen to anyone, in spite of...

As far as people with good or "healthy": birth experiences judging others with bad experiences, I think that is part of this because when I tried to bring my perspective in it was not treated seriously. I was told that I had anger and resentment, and that I was blaming and judging others. My thoughts were not taken seriouslybeacuse of the birth that I had. Of course, it all has to be about my anger towards those with good births, it couldn't have anything to do with really having an opinion on this topic, or that I found someone's words to be harsh. And also, if I tried to start such a thread here, it would be pulled within the space of minutes, I'd imagine. But I'd rather not even get into that.

[Jimibell]

semantics and differences of opinion aside, it still seems to me Lousli that you have real feelings of resentment toward people who are intent on having a wonderful birth experience......I think the anger is misplaced.....

[Full Heart]

Originally Posted by Lousli

I really think it is difficult for people who have only had great experiences to wrap their heads around how hurtful threads can be when they talk about the power of positive thinking as if it is some magic bullet that will protect you no matter what.

Alot of the ladies on this board have had hospital and homebirth experiences that have been traumatic. Some have had failed hbs. I am one of them. Dont assume that we have only had great experiences. I doubt my fear caused me to pass out from a pph after my 2nd was born. I am pretty sure it was the pit I was given. And I know for a fact that fear was no where in the equation to why my labor didn't progress and I needed to be transported. Cause if that were the case than every kid I had after that would have been transported cause it was the transport itself that has scared me and left me fearful. Fear didn't create your problems any more than it created mine. The point is that fear can inhibit and disrubt the birth process. Birth is not inherently dangerous. Which is what the op was talking about. People think birth is dangerous and that she is being too optimistic. That she should realize its way more risky than it is. We know thats not true so we choose not to be fearful of it. Yes, we realize things can and do happen. We are prepare for it as much as anyone can. But we choose not to dwell on it. Because we know fear can disrupt the birth process.


To the OP. I don't think you can be too positive. I think you can be naive, but you don't sound naive. If you are fully aware of the birth process, how complications arise, why they arise and how to treat them, then you are not naive. I would say that to anyone regardless of where they were birthing. Since I have actually seen this the opposite way - with those planning hospital births.

Of course then for a millisecond I think what if by the most remote chance I end up as a transfer, or a csection; will be current attitude be harmful. I would hope that I would be confident that we did what we could and were making the best decision.

It doesn't matter if you leave room for doubt. If your plans don't go through you will be disappointed. Thats just the way humans are. We have expectations, dreams and goals for everything not just birth. And when they don't come to fruition we do get disappointed. Even the eternal pessimist is secretly disappointed .

I really hope I am making sense. I know lately I have been speaking in jibberish cause my brain is elsewhere. If someone got what I was talking about and could make it sound good that would be great

[oregongirlie]

I think you have to have a positive outlook but I think many people get so down when things don't go as expected. I think you need to have an open heart to avoid disappointment or "failure".

[Lousli]

Originally Posted by Jimibell

semantics and differences of opinion aside, it still seems to me Lousli that you have real feelings of resentment toward people who are intent on having a wonderful birth experience......I think the anger is misplaced.....

You know what Jimibell, at this point I don't think I'm angry at anyone but you. I really am starting to have resentment. Towards you trying to tell me what it is that I feel, what I should feel, who I feel it towards. You don't know me, don't know if there is anger or passion behind my words, don't know what I think towards those preparing to birth or those who have had wonderful experiences.

It seems to me that what is misplaced is that you are trying to put your idea of what I am onto me, even if I disagree with you. Sorry, but I know myself far better than you could ever hope to know me from reading a few paragraphs on a message board. You can think I'm lying, or deluding myself or whatever it is that you think, but it is starting to get pretty old and quite rude to be honest. I try to explain myself as clearly and patiently as I can and you just keep telling me how I feel angry and resentful and on top of that, you are trying to tell me what my motives are.

To the other posters and the op of this thread: I honestly wish no one any ill will and hope that your birth experiences are great ones. I think that natural birth and homebirth can be awesome, beautiful, peaceful, inspiring. I never tried to say that it couldn't be. Apparently I took the OP to mean something different than everyone else. I thought dissenting opinions would be valued. I still think my opinions and experiences are valid, and I still think I had a point to make. However, since my point is clearly not coming across and it has now gotten to the point where I am being disrespected every time I post and told what I feel by a stranger, I will bow out of this thread and leave you to support one another in peace.

[SublimeBirthGirl]

I tried, really tried, in my initial post to simply say that my positive thoughts set the expectation for a good birthing experience too high. That in my case, not leaving room for doubts meant that I was unprepared to handle the emotional aftermath of a bad outcome.

IMO, this is individual. Some women can expect the best, and still be able to adapt when things don't go as planned. It's up to the OP to decide which type of personality she has. I think you make a valid point.

I do not think that is an uncommon scenario when people are so dead-set on having a certain birth experience that they are devastated when it doesn't work out.

For me anyway, being set on a certain type of birth experience wasn't something I had a choice in. I could have said all day "I'm not going to have my heart set on X" and I still would have. Sometimes there's no way around that. If I'd had to transfer with my homebirth, I'd have been extremely disappointed. I knew the odds were small and chose not to dwell on it, to adapt if it happened, as I'd have no choice at that point.

I have no problem with positive thinking, and I agree that dwelling on fears or complications that might arise is not productive. But not allowing them to enter one's mind at all, in my personal opinion is also unhelpful. It is setting the bar too high if things go wrong.

I think ignoring/pushing away fears is as destructive as dwelling on them. Ideally, as our fears come up, we look them straight in the eye and work through them the best we can.

[Lady Lilya]

Let's clarify things:

Is anyone stating that
A) all complications come from fear
or
B) having no fear will definitely lead to a perfect birth
?

Because the impression I get from everyone is that they believe fear can be a contributing factor to some of the complications. I see nobody guaranteeing that being fearless will 100% of the time result in a birth without complications, or guaranteeing that if a complication occurred it was the result of fear.

[SublimeBirthGirl]

Right. Fear can definitely contribute-just look at the hormones involved in labor and how fear affects those hormones. It is a physiological fact that fear can cause problems during labor. But of course fear isn't the ONLY cause. I haven't seen anybody say that.

[Peppamint]

I was the same way. I knew the 'risks' and chose to believe that my body could do it. If I needed assistance, my midwife was there, if we needed more than that, there's a great doctor that backs up homebirth patients.

The only time I think focusing on fears will help is if you're focusing on them so you can set them to rest.