LDS Mamas and Papas #39 - Page 26

[fericito]

I just wanted to say that I'm glad I'm old fashioned.

[seren]

I'm so frustrated. I posted here if anyone wants to read it. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...57#post7692657

[marlygf]

I'm so sorry things aren't well Seren. It's just annoying when they don't understand.

[nakagain]

I wanted to update that the Pres. Hinkley is fine and well.

I REALLY HATE those rumors and I'm sorry I said anything and I'm frustrated someone would even start a rumor like that. Darn preggo hormones are not helping.

[momnloveit]

nakagain, I hope things are okay with your preganancy and house. I was thinking of you for some reason, and realized that we were in a similar situation a few years ago. It was pretty bleak. We were trying so hard to have faith and trust in the Lord. I was questioning my decisions, even though I felt like at the time they were approved by the Lord. We needed to get rid of a motor home that we had ended up going into debt for. We thought we'd have the money to pay it off from selling our house, but our new house ended up needing lots of work, much of it unexpected. So we were stuck with a payment we couldn't afford. We owed 13,000 on the motor home. My dh took it to 5 or 6 different RV lots and asked what they would pay for it. None of them would even take it. They said at most, they'd give him 5,000 for it. One guy told us to put it in the thrifty nickel for 1200 and see if we got any bites. We decided to put it in for 5,000, since that was the highest we seemed to be able to hope for. That day, the young men's president came over and Dallin told him what we'd done. He said call them back and list it for 20,000. We were thinking, no way, but we did it just to see what happened. We ended up with so many offers that we had to have a silent auction and ended up selling it for 21,000!
Be prepared for the Lord to bless you!

Seren, I read your post, and I feel really sorry that things are so hard. I can see things from your dh's point of view, too, though. When I'm tired in the morning I don't always say the nicest things. He might be feeling just as depressed and helpless as you. Be gentle to each other. Hugs to both of you! Sometimes when I am suffering with depression, it helps if I just give myself one "job" for the day and try to accomplish that. Often it gets me going enough to do even more.

[intorainbowz]

Glad he is fine... I hate those rumors. Prolly what happened was a special prayer for him or something and the person was not paying attention and thought he was dying.

[holyhelianthus]

i've been wantng to post this question in religious studies but really want an LDS point of view seeing as how it seems we view sin somewhat differently. my question is is sin a sin if you don't know you're sinning? can one really be held accountable for masturbation if they don't know it's a no-no? tha's just one example of many. i think of this because where i was disfellowshipped for fornication DH didn't have to go through that process because he later converted and 'didn't know better' he didn't make the covenants i had made, either. so if it isn't a sin then how far do we go? if one murders without knowledge that it's wrong are they then in the clear? my first thought is no because we all are born with the 'knowledge' that taking someone's free agency is wrong. murder, rape, pedophillia, etc etc. but then there are those who don't have that 'off' button. can they really be held accountable?

[fericito]

Originally Posted by magstphil

i've been wantng to post this question in religious studies but really want an LDS point of view seeing as how it seems we view sin somewhat differently. my question is is sin a sin if you don't know you're sinning? can one really be held accountable for masturbation if they don't know it's a no-no? tha's just one example of many. i think of this because where i was disfellowshipped for fornication DH didn't have to go through that process because he later converted and 'didn't know better' he didn't make the covenants i had made, either. so if it isn't a sin then how far do we go? if one murders without knowledge that it's wrong are they then in the clear? my first thought is no because we all are born with the 'knowledge' that taking someone's free agency is wrong. murder, rape, pedophillia, etc etc. but then there are those who don't have that 'off' button. can they really be held accountable?

To be honest? I don't think so. For one thing, this is why I'm glad I don't have to be a judge in Israel because it's all so confusing and each case has to be taken on its own, kwim? I really think that if you don't know it's a sin, you can't possibly be held accountable for it.

It may seem unfair that you and your dh could get different treatments for the same sin but it makes sense too. Even if you and I did the exact same thing, had made the same covenants, etc. it could still be different repentance processes - based on our bishop, based on the timing, based on their belief in our repentance or desire, etc.

Does that make any sense?

And I don't think everyone has an off button or even learns that murder, etc. is wrong. So I don't think they'll be judged the way those of us who do know.

It really does seem unfair sometimes but then I think of that parable where some men went to work in the morning and were told a certain amount of pay they'd receive. At noon time more men joined and were given the same amount of pay even though they didn't work as long. The first ones complained. But as I remember it, it was explained that they hadn't been shorted on anything - they'd received what they'd been promised. Same idea holds true for me when it comes to sin. Seems like it would be easy to make a bunch of mistakes and then repent later when you found it was wrong and it's not so easy to have to live your life right all the time if you were born in the church.

Then again, the repentance process is still required for anyone and it is still painful for anyone and I'd rather live the life I have even if I didn't get to try everything someone else who didn't know better did.

Is that long enough? LOL

[holyhelianthus]

thanks for your post, Tara. i actually hink it seems more fair then condeming someone for doing something they don't know is wrong. does that make sense? i just couldn't see that happening. i guess that's why in life it's hard for me to expect every non member to have our 'vaues'. i can't get upset with someone for going to a strip club when they honest to goodness don't see the issue with it.

[fericito]

Originally Posted by magstphil

thanks for your post, Tara. i actually hink it seems more fair then condeming someone for doing something they don't know is wrong. does that make sense? i just couldn't see that happening. i guess that's why in life it's hard for me to expect every non member to have our 'vaues'. i can't get upset with someone for going to a strip club when they honest to goodness don't see the issue with it.

same with me. I always try to remember that others don't have the same belief system as me so they're coming from a totally different place.

The thing that does get to me sometimes is when they mock or belittle my beliefs because I feel like I try SO HARD NOT to do that to anyone else - but then again, just makes me stronger, right?

Are you as glad as me that only do we have an infinitely perfect Father but that He is loving and kind as well? I just imagine Him being as merciful as possible because He loves us so much - no matter what our mistakes.

[seren]

Oh great! SOmenoe elsewhere just pointed out that with 8 cavities they would be freaking out about absessing. I know a woman who died from an abssessed tooth. Now I'm crying!!!!!!!!!!

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by fericito

The thing that does get to me sometimes is when they mock or belittle my beliefs because I feel like I try SO HARD NOT to do that to anyone else - but then again, just makes me stronger, right?

oh my gosh that way breaks my heart! i hate the 'don't impede my freedom to choose by calling my actions sin.' and then in the same breath they tell us what we can and cannot believe as if that doesn't mess with our freedom to choose. upsets me especially when i'm only pointing out what i personally believe to be sin but don't hold them to. : after all, we are only accountable for ourselves at the end of the day. well, our children to a certain extent. you get my point.

i love that our Heavenly Father doesn't over simplify. He sees us all as the individuals we are and doesn't judge us all in one swoop.

[NewCrunchyDaddy]

Originally Posted by magstphil

i've been wantng to post this question in religious studies but really want an LDS point of view seeing as how it seems we view sin somewhat differently. my question is is sin a sin if you don't know you're sinning? can one really be held accountable for masturbation if they don't know it's a no-no? tha's just one example of many. i think of this because where i was disfellowshipped for fornication DH didn't have to go through that process because he later converted and 'didn't know better' he didn't make the covenants i had made, either. so if it isn't a sin then how far do we go? if one murders without knowledge that it's wrong are they then in the clear? my first thought is no because we all are born with the 'knowledge' that taking someone's free agency is wrong. murder, rape, pedophillia, etc etc. but then there are those who don't have that 'off' button. can they really be held accountable?

Short Answer: "No."

Long Answer: No. It is called a transgression. A transgression is when you sin without a knowledge of the law you have broken. When Adam and Eve, for example, partook of the fruit of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil they transgressed. They did not know Good from Evil, so how could they know it was wrong to partake of the fruit? You cannot be held accountable for a law you did not know about. Heavenly Father is just and fair, and to condemn someone for breaking a law they did not know about does not fall under the "fair and just" category. There is a scripture that addresses this in either the Book of Mormon or the Doctrine & Covenants, but I can't seem to find it at the moment, but the gist of it is that you cannot sin without knowing the law of God. This works in your example of masturbation and fornication, and other such laws of God, the Word of Wisdom, for example, or I dunno ... baptism.

However, there is a line drawn at murder and probably rape and other forcible sexual sins. This is where the Spirit/Light of Christ (in Moroni 7:15-19) comes in. Murder, for example, is so inherently wrong that everyone should know that it is wrong to kill.

However, there are people who may not be responsible for their actions due to mental illness, for example, or other circumstances. Are they culpable? We don't know. That is where God's omniscience comes in. Only He can know who is truly responsible for their actions and who isn't.

DW and I have had this discussion a lot because my MIL is a diagnosed paranoid-schizophrenic and has clinical depression. She has done some - pardon the phrase but - "crazy" things in the past, and has had some pretty frightening delusions on occasion. Is she responsible for how she acts under these delusions? I don't know. I don't believe a fair and just God would afflict His daughter with conditions like paranoid-schizophrenia and clinical depression and then expect her to react to stressors like someone who has all their faculties would (I even believe the Atonement covers such issues because Alma states in Alma 7:11-12 that Christ "will take upon him the pains and the sicknesses of his people" and "will take upon him their infirmities, that his bowels may be filled with mercy, according to the flesh, that he may know according to the flesh how to succor his people according to their infirmities"

Luckily, it's God's job to judge that, and not mine. I couldn't do it.


Hope that helps.

[klg47]

Originally Posted by seren

Oh great! SOmenoe elsewhere just pointed out that with 8 cavities they would be freaking out about absessing. I know a woman who died from an abssessed tooth. Now I'm crying!!!!!!!!!!

I am sure there are signs of abcesses that you can watch for. My little ds had 10 teeth worked on, which means he had at least 10 cavities. He didn't die. Visit the dental forum. There are a lot of MDC mamas who do NOT get their kids' teeth worked on. They watch carefully for pain and infection (abcess), but don't get the cavities filled or teeth capped/pulled. You can also try the yahoogroup veryyoungkidsteeth.

[intorainbowz]

Originally Posted by magstphil

i've been wantng to post this question in religious studies but really want an LDS point of view seeing as how it seems we view sin somewhat differently. my question is is sin a sin if you don't know you're sinning? can one really be held accountable for masturbation if they don't know it's a no-no?

Oh... I have a scripture NCD did not use... Yay me!

D&C 131:6 It is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance.

Greater explanation: from Enter to Learn--Go Forth to Serve
Given by L. TOM PERRY 5 March 1995 at BYU

The scriptures tell us that "it is impossible for a man to be saved in ignorance" (D&C 131:6). This principle is greatly misunderstood. Elder John A. Widtsoe wrote:

There are of course many kinds of knowledge; some of lesser, some of higher value. When Joseph Smith said that a man cannot be saved in ignorance, he meant naturally ignorance of the laws which all together lead to salvation. Such knowledge is of the highest value. It should be sought after first. Then other kinds of knowledge may be added to support and amplify the more direct knowledge of spiritual law. For example, it is a duty of the Church to preach the gospel to all the world. This however requires the aid of railroads, steamships, printing presses, and a multitude of other things that make up our civilization. A knowledge of the gospel is the missionary's first need, but the other needs, though lesser, help him perform better the divine injunction to teach the gospel to all people. [Evidences and Reconciliations, arr. G. Homer Durham (Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1987), p. 224]

Of course, today we require knowledge about passenger jets, computers, satellite communications, and so on, but Elder Widtsoe's point still holds. What he inferred is there must needs be an order to our learning, the same order indicated by the Savior's teaching: "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you" (Matthew 6:33). Learning about sacred things should come first, providing a context and a need for secular learning. If we want to return to our Heavenly Father's presence, our first priority should be to learn about his ways and his plan.

[ValarieR]

I have been waiting for bad news about the prophet- statistically, women who lose their husbands will be fine for years alone, but men without their wives don't tend to live more than a year... Good to know he's fine though

As for judging people by their appearance... On the day of my endowment, I was pierced, tattooed, and had pink hair Over the last three years I have taken out piercings other than my ears, and toned down my hair (only a bit- it is still a flaming red!)...

Also, I once attended a ward other than my own. I was wearing a camo skirt (back when I wore skirts : ) and my high combat boots. The only seats available were next to a young man with many visible tats, an orange mohawk, and lovely combat boots. After sm, I chatted with him a while, and learned he was looking into the church.

A few months later I ran into a missionary who had worked in that ward. She told me that the young man had been baptised recently. Apparently, he had visited every other church, and ours was a last resort. He felt very out of place among "normal" lds in that ward, but he had met a nice girl who made him feel more comfortable... she had worn combat boots to church!!!

So, when people make comments about my boots, I smile and say, "These boots have already converted one man to our faith... how many have been dunked thanks to your loafers?!"

I'm rambling at this point... must sleep...

~Valarie~

[cjarvis]

Have you seen the movie Happy Feet? Help!

Hi all,
nak,
my mom wants to watch "happy feet" with my ds(4.5yrs). I saw that it was rated PG and worried that it might be too scary or crude for him. Has anyone seen this? I need to let my mom know if they can watch it.
thanks

[klg47]

Originally Posted by cjarvis

Hi all,
nak,
my mom wants to watch "happy feet" with my ds(4.5yrs). I saw that it was rated PG and worried that it might be too scary or crude for him. Has anyone seen this? I need to let my mom know if they can watch it.
thanks

I've seen it, but I may not be the best person to ask. . . We've just recently stopped watching PG-13 movies like Lord of the Rings, Armageddon, and Twister around the kids (actually, since dh has been travelling, it's been quite easy!). You could always check http://www.screenit.com.

[Drewsmom]

About Happy Feet, I was talking with another mom at the park shortly after it came out (she's not LDS) and I wouldn't recommend it. We haven't seen it. I just try to steer clear of PG movies all together right now, the kids are too young.

She said that there were a lot of inuendos in the movie. Granted it goes over the kids' heads but when does that stop and after how many times of exposure.

About dental stuff. My ds#1 did have an absessed tooth this last Sept. Supposedly I had his cavity filled a year prior just so this wouldn't happen as the cavity was very visible and growing. Apparently the crummy dentist didn't get it at all (so not worth the scary experience) so it fully absessed, big bubble of white protruding from his gum above his tooth. I looked and looked for just the right dentist, oral surgeon until we found one who was not only covered but was Ok with my requests- like to not leave him until he was sedated. We tried doing it with laughing gas only but he freaked when he felt the needle so the surgeon was good about stopping and very respectful. The other surgeon was wonderful and his staff was awesome. They had a porject there for Andrew to work on and they "practiced" beforehand what would happen (ie you look this way, a hand was shielding the other side where the needle would be, and you'll feel a quick pinch and that's it). They practiced several times and I accompanied him to the room until he was fully sedated (not something they ever allow with me being the exception). He was so proud of his first "lost" tooth. They also normally don't let the kids keep the teeth b/c it has blood on it but they let him.

Judging by the root size it was'nt going to fall out any time soon, although it was very loose. Now with that said my neighbor has a little girl who is 3 and has had horrible bottle rot on her front teeth and the dentist wanted them to be pulled. She took her back to her family dentist in NY to have them looked at and he said, no don't pull them.

If the pulp is exposed having had personal experience in this dept. it's *extremely*, extremely painful so I would definitely have something done.

[fericito]

Originally Posted by Drewsmom

About Happy Feet, I was talking with another mom at the park shortly after it came out (she's not LDS) and I wouldn't recommend it. We haven't seen it. I just try to steer clear of PG movies all together right now, the kids are too young.

She said that there were a lot of inuendos in the movie. Granted it goes over the kids' heads but when does that stop and after how many times of exposure.

Really? It must've gone over my head too! I just watched it for the 3rd time this morning!

I didn't even realize it was PG though. I'm wondering if it's because of the violence like of the seals chasing the penguins or the birds trying to eat the babies or the people polluting the water or something?

I actually have enjoyed it more than most cartoon movies because of all the singing and dancing and it seemed like it had a good message - all about learning to love yourself for who you are.

I consider myself pretty restrictive when it comes to movies but my 4 year old has watched it with me twice. Then again, maybe I'm not since I forgot to look at the rating for it. (I'd already seen it in the theater)