Kick counts, etc - do you? - Page 2

[Midwife Kris]

Originally Posted by NatureMamaOR

ok, call it the pregnancy hormones... I'll bite, but not hard.

Are you "biting" me? You answered your own question to me You might be surprised to know how many women have no clue what's going on inside their body and suggesting they take a minute out of their busy lives to focus on the movements of their babies is a good thing. Clearly if you're tuned in and have an active baby you are not going to do such a thing every day unless you really enjoy that extra baby time where the focus is on it alone.

ex: http://www.ocregister.com/ocregister...le_1596265.php

[habibekindheart]

Never done it. I know when my babies are moving fine. This time around, the baby didn't move right for 48 hours...my midwife told me to go to the doc...they did a quick u/s and found out the baby WASN'T moving...but it was sitting there breathing instead. The difference in fetal movement was drastic, and it didn't take me counting beforehand or during to note the difference.

No matter how many I have, they have to unnerve me during pregnancy or delivery with something new and fun.

[Sotevenn]

I did them with my first pregnancy & will do them again. It didn't make me feel anxious to do them. It was just a quiet time to relax & focus on the baby. I had complications in my pregnancy, so maybe that is why I was happy to do them.

[NatureMama3]

Are you "biting" me? You answered your own question to me

No, I'm 'biting' as in the fish metaphor. Bait thrown out, fish bite.

I didn't answer my own question. I want to know to whom and why kick counts would be important to women who are having unassisted pregnancies and deliveries. Likely most are untrained in whatever neural or cardiac significance those kick counts would have. What would be the benefit?

[emiLy]

Metromidwife - kick counts would have hardly done that woman any good! She didn't know she was pregnant and couldn't feel any kicks! Interesting story, and I do see your point how people can be out of touch and counting kicks might be the only time they notice the baby. I doubt anyone doing a UP/UC is that out of touch, however.

[BirthingGoddesses]

Originally Posted by emiLy

Metromidwife - kick counts would have hardly done that woman any good! She didn't know she was pregnant and couldn't feel any kicks! Interesting story, and I do see your point how people can be out of touch and counting kicks might be the only time they notice the baby. I doubt anyone doing a UP/UC is that out of touch, however.

I am going to have to agree with emiLy, for the most part.

Metromidwife-Clearly if you're tuned in and have an active baby you are not going to do such a thing every day unless you really enjoy that extra baby time where the focus is on it alone.

I would like to go ahead and assume that you mean it is a waste of time to do kick counts if you are already paying attention/"tuned in to" your baby. However, I get the feeling that you are suggesting that only a woman who was tuned in would bother to do this and/or would appreciate spending time counting.

If the later is true, then I have to say that I did kick counts with my first baby only, and found that it was NOT something that allowed or inspired bonding with baby. It was a counting/scientific type observation. I cannot see counting for "hopeful" achievement of x variable to be a bonding experience. Much like your husband/coach/midwife/doctor counting out during a contraction telling you how / when to 'do' it, and not just getting into the felling/moment, letting the contraction ride.

Now, on a different perspective- if you don't feel like you are one of those real "intuitive" people or who are a person who can generally 'miss' things that may be obvious to others, maybe a little 'spacey'...then-count by all means. Sure it happens, that a woman might not 'feel' like anything is wrong - but noticed decrease in counts might be able to stop/fix a problem by notifying a health care provider. I know of one such case. But only 1.

I find that woman choosing UC, and women who take their care into their own hands somewhat {with a midwife say} are apt to be more inclined to 'pay attention' to their baby's,and what is going on in general with their body and health overall.

[rstump]

Originally Posted by AKmoose

I never have done them. I also eat soft cheese and drink a beer every once in a while :
This baby is so active I don't think I could keep count even if I wanted to

LOL....I drink raw milk too!!!

Personally I have never needed to do them. As long as you are feeling your babe move or having hiccups (like mine do atleast 4x's a day) than no need to worry. I think most of us have babes that move TOOO much.....atleast it feels that way.

[Midwife Kris]

Originally Posted by NatureMamaOR

No, I'm 'biting' as in the fish metaphor. Bait thrown out, fish bite.

I didn't answer my own question. I want to know to whom and why kick counts would be important to women who are having unassisted pregnancies and deliveries. Likely most are untrained in whatever neural or cardiac significance those kick counts would have. What would be the benefit?

I was merely explaining to the person who asked what a kick count can tell you. I wonder why taking the time out to connect with your baby and note it's movements (and perhaps personality with it) during "fetal kick counts" would be such an offensive suggestion? I never did a kick count but I knew why it was suggested. I don't insist the women who hire me as midwife do them either but that they can learn about their babies when they take time to sit with themselves.

And Birthinggoddess, you are spot on for what I was getting at as explained in your message.

[NatureMama3]

I was merely explaining to the person who asked what a kick count can tell you.

ah, ok, Thanks for clarifying.

The way I see it, fetal kick counting is NOT connecting, it is stepping back and observing scientifically instead of being connected.

[Midwife Kris]

Originally Posted by BirthingGoddesses

I would like to go ahead and assume that you mean it is a waste of time to do kick counts if you are already paying attention/"tuned in to" your baby. However, I get the feeling that you are suggesting that only a woman who was tuned in would bother to do this and/or would appreciate spending time counting.

Whoops, I didn't read this through closely enough before I agreed with you. I wouldn't say that only a woman tuned into would bother or appreciate the time during a 'fetal kick count break'. I was suggesting that those women may not mind the "excuse" to spend extra time alone with their babies because they enjoy experiencing their movements and personalities rather than as you described, seeing it as an assignment. I wouldn't call it a waste of time either for those "in tune", but if you're the mother of a frequently moving baby you know it's wake/sleep cycles, what time of day it's more active, etc. and you don't necessarily need to sit down to take note of it.

I find that woman choosing UC, and women who take their care into their own hands somewhat {with a midwife say} are apt to be more inclined to 'pay attention' to their baby's,and what is going on in general with their body and health overall.

I agree with that. Having a baby outside the "comfort" (lol) of a hospital requires we pay extra attention to what's going on with ourselves.

[Midwife Kris]

Originally Posted by NatureMamaOR

ah, ok, Thanks for clarifying.

The way I see it, fetal kick counting is NOT connecting, it is stepping back and observing scientifically instead of being connected.

Sure and I suppose that will depend on the woman who is doing the observation. Maybe there is a busy woman (maybe she works outside the home or has many kids who require her attention) who might just sit there and go, "1, 2, 3, check!" and go on with her day having completed another task. While another might go into a quiet room, turn on some music, turn the lights down low, meditate, rest, put her hands on her belly, talk and really connect with her baby and get something totally different out of it.

I guess I'm just missing where this might be "bad" or against the UC philosophy. There is a lot of talk in this section about how or when to use doppler, suction, herbs, medications, etc., and lots of other things as a midwife I wouldn't do. This is using nothing but your heart and I wonder why I'm feeling the heat?

[NatureMama3]

well, I can't personally answer for the doppler/suction type people, as I'm not one. I do use herbs, but then so did the midwives who I had with my youngest. Maybe I'm misunderstanding? You don't use herbs?

I don't know that there is any one UC philosophy. Some choose care with a provider, then birth unassisted, some (I am in this group) monitor and birth entirely unassisted by an "expert" other than themselves.

When I evaluate what "procedures" are worthy of my doing, I look at the ultimate goal of it. What is the ultimate goal of kick counting. It provides information to the care provider. I think that is probably where many are prickling. We are the "care providers", and as such are more connected with our babies than any person outside of us could be. (pardon my horrible grammar, preggo brain is thick today) It seems to us a superfluous remainder of "expert" oriented care.

[Midwife Kris]

Originally Posted by NatureMamaOR

well, I can't personally answer for the doppler/suction type people, as I'm not one. I do use herbs, but then so did the midwives who I had with my youngest. Maybe I'm misunderstanding? You don't use herbs?

I was just rattling off a list of presumptive "interventions" not found on (in!) the person herself

[BirthingGoddesses]

before you read this post:
my tone meant: was trying to peacefully convey potential alternatives to "kick count" data

also conveying the importance of acknowledging the person you were gifted with stewardship over.

**
My idea that counting is not a bonding effort may be better conveyed by imagining these examples:

While "making out" with your partner {in any fashion/level you choose}, you keep count of a particular action/or verbal expression/etc.

While having a heart to heart with your mom, you keep noticing how she says one particular word more often.

If you are focusing on/counting/keeping constant valuations of something, you cannot at the same time be truly present. It is not the same.

That to me is where there is a discrepancy.

For a momma who is not paying attention/taking time to focus on/get to know/think about her baby...yes - counting might incline her to do that as well, but that is not the goal or the resulting product of the activity.

If you feel like a woman needs to get more "into" her pregnancy, or to acknowledge her baby, I personally feel you ought to be outright up-front about why one should focus on/get to know this person who has come to be with her, and what the potential karmic / emotional /social ramifications are of ignoring this person. That you might suggest that she do some soul searching/counceling about why/what is going on about this event in her life for her.

I posted earlier about what I personally feel a midwife's position ought to be/ where so many fail, and how the woman in the post was relieved she had found a midwife who would be what she needed:

A midwife ought to: Teach women how to care for themselves, overall - as well as in their pregnancy and birth. Direct them towards self education/empowerment/ownership over ones self and life choices. Facilitate growth on all levels. Be a life facilitator of sorts.

Counting does not deliver bonding, it merely answers a care providers question. Its a sterile/non-connecting type of information sharing.

As an alternative, a midwife/Doctor/etc. could talk/ask about how much time does the woman spend talking to / paying attention to movements/ thinking about this person. This would be more informative regarding the 'overall health' of the mother- and her baby. By asking - you would also convey the importance of 'paying attention/knowing your baby" She would likely answer with things like "oh he wakes me several times a night" or "everytime I eat I get 5 minutes of the wallops" or "god forbid I lay flat on my back - wow! that kid sure knows where my cervix is" And you could surely expand upon this/probe further if it was not enough info.

I think that's why maybe some "us" seem a little annoyed / or are 'giving you heat" about it. I personally can say that's why my reaction about it was strong-er, to me, counting reminds me of those hands-off /emotionally disconnected kind of "care" type of things.

[Midwife Kris]

Originally Posted by BirthingGoddesses

I think that's why maybe some "us" seem a little annoyed / or are 'giving you heat" about it. I personally can say that's why my reaction about it was strong-er, to me, counting reminds me of those hands-off /emotionally disconnected kind of "care" type of things.

I understood the point of your post and understand also that I am in UC territory where midwives are superfluous so by definition I am not exactly part of the gang here in spite of my having the same philosophies as most of you. I seem to be digging myself out of a cold hole for having answered a flat question with a flat answer and feeling accused by inference of being "one of them".

Also the way I ascertain "data" about "fetal kick counts" is to simply ask the mother, "How is your baby?" at each visit (starting even before they feel it) and they tell me everything you gave me tips on drawing out from them rather than for them to pull out a project full of charts with markings for time blocks for us to review. They tell me their active times, sleepy times, what foods and drink they seem to react to, voices they get excited to hear, positions they dislike mom laying in, how they reacted to the stressful day/week/car accident, etc. I am hardly a cold, calculating data collector-midwife who doesn't provide sound explanations for care as suggested by your message.

Thanks for the lively discussion!

[BirthingGoddesses]

Originally Posted by metromidwife

I am hardly a cold, calculating data collector-midwife who doesn't provide sound explanations for care as suggested by your message.

Thanks for the lively discussion!

I was not suggesting that you are "a cold, calculating data collector-midwife". I do not pretend to know you personally, nor will I pretend to know how you provide care.

My points were directed at/regarding any provider that communicates in this way, and what it is about this type of {lack of} care that is one of the many things that UC'ers have on their list of why not to have someone else involved in their care.

I thought and tried hard to make it clear that it was not personal- and that my words were directed at the problem with this type of care.

I re-read my post to see where my points could have been misconstrued -there is a lack of clarity in my words - in the statement " also conveying the importance of acknowledging the person you were gifted with stewardship over." Was regarding the mother over her baby - - not the provider over the mother.

If you would read it again with this difference of angle- I am sure it could be clear to you that it was not suggested in my message that "you-metro midwife" do anything. The use of the term "you" was meant toward the care provider in general.

[Unoppressed MAMA Q]

Originally Posted by NatureMamaOR

Just wanting to get a feel for if I'm the world's laziest preggo or what..

I've never done those! Even with my twins, they wanted me to do it (heh? count for 20 seconds. there you go! 40 kicks!) and I just never did. Didn't with my youngest son either.

Am I truly missing out on something vital for baby's wellbeing?

oh, lordy, WTH?

of course i don't do this. barf barf barf. and yes, i do intend to sound indignant.

how horrid. can't a fetus have a little peace?

[JesseMomme]

I didn't even bother with kick counts with my first baby while getting traditional prenatal care.

[2bluefish]

I don't have any deep reason for not doing them - just that *they don't work* for me. My kids were both very quiet in the womb and did not move alot. But that didn't stop them from being born extremely healthy! The kick counts are just not useful to me.

I do do regular "prenatals", where I measure fundal height, feel the position of the baby, take my BP, test my urine, and listen to the baby's heartbeat. I like these reassurances. If I were to be concerned about my baby's wellbeing, then I would listen to the heartbeat to reassure myself.

[rajahkat]

mmmmm.

Metromidwife~

What problems do kick counts/lack there of/ patterns etc indicate? I am truly interested. I know I have recently been reading Frye about fetal heartrate variability and how no variability indicates a problem. Fascinating! So I'm curious about kick counts and how it corresponds, since I totally agree noticing kicking patterns is less obtrusive than even listening to the heartbeat.

**I've not done kick-counts for any of my pregnancies. My first didn't really move much, and it just never occurred to me to worry about it. And my next two never stopped moving.**