Last ditch effort

[LittleRockstar]

My niece is in labor right now. She’s having a boy. I am hoping against hope… I have said all the right things. I think I’ve passed along every piece of information I’ve learned here. I’ve been gentle, I’ve listened (even when it hurt to listen to the ignorance), and I’ve dabbled with being confrontational. My heart hurts and I feel panicked. Has anyone’s last ditch effort ever worked? If so, what worked?

The back story/ rambling rant:

I was very close to this niece. She is one of two people I trusted with my child. She was even getting ready to move in with us to finish her last two years of college. Then she decided she wanted a baby. Her boyfriend told her to finish school and they could begin negotiations (a great guy, BTW). She ditched him and got knocked up by some guy she picked up at Wal-Mart. Sadly, I’m not kidding. This guy is NOT a savory gentleman. He doesn’t work, insists that she give him every dime she earns (she complies), and he hates to bathe. Oh, and he’s been busted for drugs. She hasn’t been taking proper care of herself during her pregnancy because she’s been working two jobs to support him. Twice I went to visit her and she had absolutely no food in the house at all and it was disgustingly filthy. My brother and SIL, her parents, have tried everything they can think of. No one can figure out what happened. [sigh]

Her current arguments for circ are (brace yourself): 1.To be sure her child is right with God. (She’s a Christian and I’ve gone over this with her verse by verse, but she wants to make sure “all bases are covered, just in case.”) and 2. Intact penises are harder to keep clean and she and bf aren’t good at keeping clean. Since he’ll be the one home with the baby all day (OMG!) he probably won’t want to mess with cleaning the baby. I just re-read that and burst into tears. I’m sick about it. Who do they think they are?

End of rant.

My current tactic is to withhold all baby stuff. They don’t have anything and I was going to pass along all of my baby stuff. She’s three weeks early, so they haven’t picked anything up yet. They are very greedy and he doesn’t like to spend money on anyone but himself, so I’m hoping this works. Call it blackmail, call me a B****, call me childish… Whatever works. I’m desperate. This is what I did to my other niece last year. She mutilated her son anyway and is still bitter that I didn’t shower her with gifts. She had soooo many problems with him and would call me for advice. My advice was “Go back in time and don’t bring all this upon yourself again.” We’re done with each other.

Any ideas something else to try for this sweet little baby?

[dynamohumm6]

Push the "intact is easier to clean". Drown them with stories of "this one person I knew" about how HARD it is to have to deal with all the vaseline, gauze, and how hard it is to take care of a newborn circed penis...stress the "wipe it & go" ease of an intact baby.

*whew* on the backstory...how sad.

[guestmama9908]

Sarcasm here : Tell them how easy it will be to take care of a circumcised penis with horrible adhesions that the Doctor's keep insisting on ripping open and causing another bloody raw wound.

In reference to her cleanliness argument you might ask her how much sense it makes to expose a raw,bloody, gaping wound to a less than clean environment? Wouldn't it make more sense to have an intact penis with a natural protective mechanism?

[WonderWild]

Do they really realize how hard it is to care for a freshly circ. penis? If they are not clean anyway, this baby is headed for trouble. You have to change that gauze and put more ointment on it every diaper change and those diaper changes should be frequent. Please stress to her that this is going to be an open wound on a very sensative area. It HAS to, HAS to be cleaned properly. I just really don't think she's understanding what it's going to look like and the attention it's going to require. That's the angle I'd go with.

[hunnybumm]

WOW What a sad story. It is really scary that her BF is going to be staying home with the baby. My concern is for the welfare of the baby period. Is the BF going to change his diaper every hour? Feed him ever 2 hours? This baby is headed for trouble no matter what happens to his pour little penis. This is just so sad.

I guess I would just tell her that the circ penis needs to he cleaned asap, my first DS would cry as he was going pee, if not just before. He would scream his little head off until I changed him. I learned really quick what the 'dirty diaper' cry sounded like.

If this BF is as bad as he sounds I would keep a close eye on their house hold. As mean as this may sound, I would call CPS or something if her house gets filthy and if that baby isn't being taken care of properly. I don't like to ever mention CPS but this situation sounds bad all around.

[Daisyuk]

I think, given her and his attitudes, I might go the cps route before she has a chance to damage the baby; warn them that she's about to deliver and that the home environment and care is likely to be completely inappropriate, inadequate and dangerous for the baby.

Either way, I'd lay it on thick about the adhesions, work needed to care for a circ'd penis, and tell her all about the other neice's trauma with what she did to her child.

[LittleRockstar]

Thank you all. I'm exhausted from thinking about this, but it seems that I'll have more time. They have her contractions stopped for now and she'll be spending the remainder of her pregnancy on the hospital. I'm going to take her some reading materials (some intact info and other stuff too). Just having a bit more time took the panic away. I haven't given up.

Her parents have made it very clear to her that her baby WILL NOT live in filth and he will not be neglected. I know they wouldn't hesitate to report the situation if necessary. I'm not sure anyone has thought to report them before the baby is born though. Hmmm.

I plan on visiting/bothering her every day.

Thank you all.

[TigerTail]

It does scare me that a messy house is seen as CPS worthy, but planning to amputate a piece of your baby is not automatically getting them whisked away as mental health issues & abuse.

Houses can get clean. A-hole sperm donors can get dumped. Unnecessarry surgery, ptsd, reactive attachment disorder, damage from amputation, cannot be reversed.

Why is fiddling with children's genitals seen as suddenly ok if it is CUTTING THEM? The average child molestor is less cruel & does it for no more prurient reasons. He's just more honest to himself about it.

[trmpetplaya]

Well since the New Testament specifically says that circumcision doesn't do ANYTHING for Christians (in fact it means that Christ will be of no value to them if they circumcise for religious reasons) she's making sure that her son WON'T be right with God, in my interpretation...

It's not okay to cut all children's genitals though... just BOYS. It'd be abuse if they made a tiny prick in a daughter's genitals... but chopping off half the penis? No problem! @#&*ing hypocrites...

love and peace.

[pigpokey]

She's young, and she's not thinking clearly. I'd see if a pastor would come visit her in the hospital and back you up that this is not necessary, followed by you coming to her crying about how much more work it is to keep a circ'd infant penis from more complications in urine or feces soaked diapers. And then frankly, before she has a chance to react, I'd offer her money to leave him intact. I'd offer to give her a certain amount of money every month that she leaves that boy intact.

Stall her until she is about 25 and thinking right.

[travisandjill]

well personally I would be blunt and say "you circ him, I will never talk to you again". I would be willing to lose both family and friends over my personal convictions. I wouldnt support anyone who sexually abuses their kids. And I would call CPS about her house and lifestyle too BTW.

[pigpokey]

CPS can't do much about dirty apartments and the child will not be eating much for a long time, so they are not going to be concerned about the amount of food in the fridge, either.

If the state got custody for some reason, isn't that a time the child would be at risk of being circ'd?

[trmpetplaya]

Originally Posted by pigpokey

If the state got custody for some reason, isn't that a time the child would be at risk of being circ'd?

Sadly, yes... but not if he already is

love and peace.

[4chunut1]

Originally Posted by LittleRockstar

...Her current arguments for circ are (brace yourself): 1.To be sure her child is right with God. (She’s a Christian and I’ve gone over this with her verse by verse, but she wants to make sure “all bases are covered, just in case.”) and 2. Intact penises are harder to keep clean and she and bf aren’t good at keeping clean. Since he’ll be the one home with the baby all day (OMG!) he probably won’t want to mess with cleaning the baby. I just re-read that and burst into tears. I’m sick about it. Who do they think they are?

Any ideas something else to try for this sweet little baby?

LittleRockstar you are to be commended for trying to help this dysfunctional couple and their future child. Here is a link you can direct her to that will answer every argument ever made concerning Christians and circumcision. It also addresses her second argument about cleanliness as well. The link:

http://www.udonet.com/circumcision/christian.html

If your niece does not have access to the internet maybe you could print the article off and take it to her. It is a comprehensive well-written article by a woman author, and I would recommend it to anyone contemplating circumcision, Christian believer or not.

[LittleRockstar]

Originally Posted by pigpokey

I'd see if a pastor would come visit her in the hospital and back you up that this is not necessary, followed by you coming to her crying about how much more work it is to keep a circ'd infant penis from more complications in urine or feces soaked diapers.

This is brilliant. I think I know just the pastor to ask. Thank you for the suggestion. I have new hope.

[AutumnMama]

Good luck I'm so glad you're doing this for them!

[Microsoap]

1.) http://www.catholicsagainstcircumcision.org/
2.) HA! Babies are ((chronically)) messy and it's MUCH easier to wipe the intact penis like you would a finger than clean poop from a fresh circ wound! Even after a circ has healed, it's not cleaner (I have no circ'd little kids, so idk, sorry) since there's a "skin scarf" of remaining loose foreksin bunching up behind the rim of the glans to clean. And if he has a "loose" circ, it's even worse!

http://www.icgi.org/medicalization_o...ion.htm#Page_1 ...Go through it page-by-page w/ her (don't trust her to look at it by herself).

[Quirky]

to you, mama.

This young woman sounds like she has problems WAAAAAY beyond not thinking straight about cutting on her baby, although obviously that's a huge one from the baby's point of view.....has anyone tried to have a counselor talk to her about depression? I'm wondering if she's at real risk of PPD. Also, do you think beyond being "merely" controlling that her BF is abusive? Anything you can stage an intervention for?

[Ivan's Mom]

Originally Posted by TigerTail

Why is fiddling with children's genitals seen as suddenly ok if it is CUTTING THEM? The average child molestor is less cruel & does it for no more prurient reasons. He's just more honest to himself about it.

I really wish we could STOP comparing circ to child molesters. I find this statement to be incredibly insensitive to victims of child molesters (me included). Child molestors are the ultimate cruel beings on Earth. Worse than murders, IMO. I do not think we gain anything by calling people who circ or have their child circ'd baby-rapers or comparing them to child molesters. I also do not think downplaying the cruelty of child molesters is sensitive to the countless numbers of us who have been in the pits of hell (the molesters bedroom.)

Circumcision is a crime, like child molestation is a crime, but they are separate IMO. Circumcision is Hell for children and so is being violated sexually for the pleasure of an adult. Maybe some cross-over into each other's world, but not all.

Child molesters are NOT HONEST! : They are pieces of feces who should be locked away for life, no parole. : I would not say this about every parent that makes the horrible mistake of having their child circ'd.

[Daisyuk]

Originally Posted by Ivan's Mom

I would not say this about every parent that makes the horrible mistake of having their child circ'd.

I would if they knew what they were doing, if they were carving up a child's genitals to "look like daddy" or because "mommy doesn't like to look at an intact penis". And quite frankly all these tales of mothers constantly interfering with their sons penises, pulling back the foreskin so they can see the glans, manipulating it, all the other crazy things they do to their sons, sounds exactly like child molestation to me. Just because they stop doing it before the child can remember it, doesn't make it right and ok. What would all those little boys be telling people if they could remember it? Can you imagine? Their horror, pain and trauma would be just as great as yours (and just like little girls in Africa).

I think your definition of being violated for the pleasure of an adult fits circumcision perfectly, it's cosmetic surgery for the benefit of the parents, not the baby.

What else would you call it? Just because they refuse to believe it doesn't make it NOT child molestation. I think all those women and their partners who do that and continue to do it in the face of overwhelming evidence that it isn't doing their son any good, are just vile.