Last ditch effort - Page 2

[Ivan's Mom]

Originally Posted by Daisyuk

I think all those women and their partners who do that and continue to do it in the face of overwhelming evidence that it isn't doing their son any good, are just vile.

I agree they are vile. I hate circumcision as much as anyone here and I really hate the people who do it while knowing how unnecessary it is. I still feel they are separate from what happened to me and what is happening in bedrooms across the world. I think all this manipulation of little boys mutilated penises in incredibly traumatic and tragic and criminal : The thought of it haunts me. I still think it is separate from the "sex" that takes place between the twisted pervert and the small child. : A real problem I had with the post was the use of the word "honest" in reference with the word child molester and the "less cruel" wording. Both are cruel. My post is not to downplay circ, but to ask for more sensitivity to victims of child molesters (in the traditional view of the term).

[trmpetplaya]

Originally Posted by Ivan's Mom

I still think it is separate from the "sex" that takes place between the twisted pervert and the small child. : A real problem I had with the post was the use of the word "honest" in reference with the word child molester and the "less cruel" wording. Both are cruel. My post is not to downplay circ, but to ask for more sensitivity to victims of child molesters (in the traditional view of the term).

So ripping open a girls vagina and slicing off her genitals isn't sexual molestation? I agree that parents who don't know any better cannot be compared to child molesters, but parents who know that there is no reason except THEIR aesthetic (sexual) preference and doctors who know that there is no reason except aesthetic (sexual) preference and still allow or perform circumcisions are absolutely child molesters.

Forcing one's sexual preference onto a child by irreversably violating and mutilating them is sexual assault. It may not be the "traditional" view of assualt, but it absolutely fits the definition.

http://www.medem.com/medlb/article_d...EC&sub_cat=351

The legal definition of criminal sexual assault is any genital, oral, or anal penetration by a part of the accused's body or by an object, using force or without the victim's consent

Circumcision of an infant ALWAYS involves forced penetration of the genitals (between the foreskin and glans) by an object without the victim's consent. I don't see how that could be anything BUT criminal sexual assault

love and peace.

[TigerTail]

I'm not minimizing child molesting. I'm saying cutting, fiddling, obsessing about the appearance of children's genitals IS child molesting. While often shorter in duration, the intensity of the physical torture- you have to go to a 'Jet' Duncan to exceed that level.

Intent doesn't make the difference to the child suffering the inhumane abuse- are you saying a child being circed doesn't suffer as much because mommy tells herself she means well? Who cares when you're 3 years old (or 3 days, or 13 years) if it's Uncle Ernie or the village wise woman?

Pain & terror are the same. My rape was no less horrific because I knew my rapist. (However, it makes it a lot easier to get away with it- just like circ.)

No pain was intended by my post for survivors of molestation of ANY kind.

[Ivan's Mom]

My post was NOT to give any excuse to circumcisers. My post was directly in response to this statement

The average child molestor is less cruel & does it for no more prurient reasons. He's just more honest to himself about it.

I do not think it was a "sensitive" statement in regards to the millions of children who are molested by neighbors, teacher, fathers, mothers, uncles, aunts, strangers etc, etc, etc. The words "less cruel" and "honest" should not be used when speaking about the horror of sex with children. It destroys the child for life emotionally.

Again, I do not make excuses for circ or the parents who have their children circ'd. I do think we will not change minds and we offend when we label this way and downplay sex with children that just happens to not involve cutting off pieces of their body.

If seems like I am not making myself clear so go on with your labeling as you see fit. Maybe it works.

[Ivan's Mom]

Originally Posted by TigerTail

are you saying a child being circed doesn't suffer as much because mommy tells herself she means well?

Of course not. I have a zero tolerance for people who have their kids cut. I was saying that the statement using the terms "less cruel" and "honest" were hurtful to those who have been children of sexual abuse. Circumcision is not OK and the people who perform circ are criminal IMO. They deserve punishment as do anyone who makes excuses for them. Circumcision should be outlawed and I am committed to helping the cause to get it outlawed.

[TigerTail]

'Less cruel' = in the sense, diddling is less physically torturous than cutting. A close relative was molested. She is tremendously affected, but her genitals were at least not cut off. That's- that's Hannibal Lector stuff.

'Honest' = I don't hear a lot of molestors telling themselves they were doing it for the child's own good.

That's all I meant; it was passionate rhetoric, not official 'labels'.

I would handle this differently discussing with you in another forum. This is not the place for this; I am uncomfortable with anything here appearing to minimize the damage of circumcision. I am only replying to make my possibly shocking, possibly confusing initial statement clearer, not upset anyone further.

But if one person has it click that circ is a prurient form of molestation, ranking with the most awful child abuse (it targets children who can't even speak yet, for God's sake! you think that's a coincidence?), & stops before they cut, I'll take the heat of being considered a mean asshat.

Better your inadvertent ptsd trigger or mine, than one more tortured child. No offense, but we're grownups, we can fight back. It's children (like you were) that I'm trying desperately to save. Words are just words. Knives cut. Kwim?

[Ivan's Mom]

Originally Posted by TigerTail

'Honest' = I don't hear a lot of molestors telling themselves they were doing it for the child's own good.

This now makes more sense. I did not read it that way before.

Originally Posted by TigerTail

I am uncomfortable with anything here appearing to minimize the damage of circumcision.

I agree. It is the ultimate power abuse as well as child abuse. And it can and does maim and too often, kills.:

Originally Posted by TigerTail

I am only replying to make my possibly shocking, possibly confusing initial statement clearer, not upset anyone further.

I appreciate that. I am deeply scared from my past. Child molesters and circumcisers are

[TigerTail]

Thank you. I was kind of shaky thinking I'd traumatized anybody, I'm the last person to minimize ptsd triggers (my hands literally are trembling right now). I figured it was miscommunication; my posts when kids are crawling all over me (or before coffee ) sometimes lack clarity. I apologize for upsetting you (and any lurkers).

[Incubator]

Originally Posted by TigerTail

'Honest' = I don't hear a lot of molestors telling themselves they were doing it for the child's own good.

Damn straight. That's what gets me about circumcisers. It's sick and cruel, how could it be for their own good?

[Cassandra M.]

The problem I see with coining parents who choose circ as child abusers is the parents ARE NOT the ones peforming the procedure, it's the medical professionals that peform the act and the laws that allow it. I think the facts that this is 1. routinely done 2. legal and 3. medically pushed is minimized here. I highly doubt parents who seem to "know the facts" actually get the reality of what circumcision does to their child, at the time and later in life.
And frankly, I'm a little turned off by the tone of some posters in this forum...and I'm guessing some potential advocates could easily get turned off as well, which is pretty unfortunate. I'm almost afraid to post here and I am a huge anti circ advocate.
To the OP, I hope you can make a difference in your baby nephews right to be whole.

[TigerTail]

Well, I'm turned off when I go to forums & hear so-called intactivists talk about 'it's a personal choice, you have to do what is right for your family' in the name of not stirring things up. .

Those places need intactivists (desperately) too, if you can deal with those situations better (I think I'd slowly twitch to death in those circumstances). We all have to pitch in & do what we can. Maybe you have the gift of being firmly, graciously tactful in the face of mountains of ignorance. Lord knows we need more of those.

[Cassandra M.]

Originally Posted by TigerTail

Well, I'm turned off when I go to forums & hear so-called intactivists talk about 'it's a personal choice, you have to do what is right for your family' in the name of not stirring things up. .

Those places need intactivists (desperately) too, if you can deal with those situations better (I think I'd slowly twitch to death in those circumstances). We all have to pitch in & do what we can. Maybe you have the gift of being firmly, graciously tactful in the face of mountains of ignorance. Lord knows we need more of those.

Riiiiight, well...why don't I just meander on over to those forums? Because, Lord knows, there's no in between approach.


You get more bees with honey....

[hunnybumm]

Originally Posted by Cassandra M.

The problem I see with coining parents who choose circ as child abusers is the parents ARE NOT the ones peforming the procedure, it's the medical professionals that peform the act and the laws that allow it. I think the facts that this is 1. routinely done 2. legal and 3. medically pushed is minimized here. I highly doubt parents who seem to "know the facts" actually get the reality of what circumcision does to their child, at the time and later in life.
And frankly, I'm a little turned off by the tone of some posters in this forum...and I'm guessing some potential advocates could easily get turned off as well, which is pretty unfortunate. I'm almost afraid to post here and I am a huge anti circ advocate.
To the OP, I hope you can make a difference in your baby nephews right to be whole.

If it makes you feel better I agree with you. I really don't like people who choose to cir being called child abusers. I think it is awful and needs to be stopped, but the parents don't go into it thinking they are causing damage and pain to their children. They think they are doing what is right. It's not, and that is clear. But people who have sex with children, sexually molest children and beat children (many before they even know how to express it in words) aren't on the same level as someone who circumcises.

I am sure this will get flamed to heck, but I hate to see someone who I agree with getting burned when they speak there mind. We are all on the same side here guys.

[PuppyFluffer]

There are so many ways to approach educating people about the honest horror of circumcision. Some people have a lightbulb moment with gentle explainations. Others have stronger social conditioning and it can take forceful words and descriptions to get through to them.

We have had the discussion about how to describe circumcision here before. Is it mutilation, yes. It fits the description of mutilation.

From dictionary .com
mu·ti·late /ˈmyutlˌeɪt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[myoot-l-eyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -lat·ed, -lat·ing. 1. to injure, disfigure, or make imperfect by removing or irreparably damaging parts: Vandals mutilated the painting.
2. to deprive (a person or animal) of a limb or other essential part.

Is it sexual mutilation? If using the defination of mutilation above...and acknowledging that it irreparably damages and removes a part of the sexual organ, then yes, it's sexual mutilation.

And from the defination above of sexual assault:

http://www.medem.com/medlb/article_d...&sub_ca t=351

Quote:
The legal definition of criminal sexual assault is any genital, oral, or anal penetration by a part of the accused's body or by an object, using force or without the victim's consent

it seems that it can easily fit under that label as well.

I don't think anyone here is trying to minimize the damage of sexual abuse of a child or circumcision of a child. If anything, bringing circumcision into the arena of child sexual abuse may shine light upon the truth of it.

I also agree that parents who consent to a procedure that they are misled into thinking has health benefits for their son are not guilty of abuse. They are guilty of ignorance. While the child suffers no matter where we place blame, I do think it is important to be clear when we speak. The act is damaging, and damaging for life, that is certainly true. Their are many ways to convey that fact.

In the case of the OP, I am sorry that your neice has taken this path in her life and chosen what seems to be a less that stellar partner to have a child with. I hope you are able to reach through to them about the facts regarding circumcision.

[PuppyFluffer]

Originally Posted by Cassandra M.

Riiiiight, well...why don't I just meander on over to those forums? Because, Lord knows, there's no in between approach.


You get more bees with honey....

Cassandra, there are many ways to approach sharing information on circumcision that are discussed here in The Case Against Circumcision forum. Not all approaches work for everyone. I have seen so many different approaches suggested when someone comes here asking for help in educating someone. When one comes here asking for suggestions, they may get many different ideas. The intent is not to turn off anyone. The intent is to toss out as many facts and ideas as possible. Only the person asking for advice on aproaching another knows that other's personality and learning and listening styles. I think the best approach is to take what sounds like it will work and leave the rest behind. Those of us reading these threads can probably match up different approaches with the different people we know in real life.

The intent here is not to shut people down, the intent is to help educate. And in that vein, we should all take what we think will work and leave the rest.

[Cassandra M.]

I agree with you Karen, I absolutely agree that circ'ing is child abuse, but IMO that doesn't make parents the abusers...unless, of course, they are wielding the knife themselves. That's MY opinion, and I think the extended focus on blaming parents is kind of like blaming the single fisherman for eating all the salmon when commercial net came and snagged millions (ok...bad analogy but it kind of makes my point.)

It's not the different approaches to education I have an issue with here, it's the condescending attitudes from a few posters that ostracize other intactivists if they dare to see things a little differently.

It's just, we're all comrades..and it makes little sense to bite the throat of someone else here if they dare to disagree. I think it does nothing for the cause.

[TigerTail]

Originally Posted by Cassandra M.

Riiiiight, well...why don't I just meander on over to those forums? Because, Lord knows, there's no in between approach.


You get more bees with honey....

Sigh. You know, we really do need help on other boards, right? I go sometimes, try to support our dedicated intactivists with at least a 'yeah that!', and then come back before my brain asplode.

There's a difference between 'bugger off if you don't like it then!' & 'please, help get the word out if you can come up with some honey on your facts, because I admittedly can't do it very well.' I was pretty careful with my word choices to try & convey the latter.

This is one of the very few boards on the web (& THE place that comes up high on Google searches, yay!) that people will hear the honest facts about the brutal act of circumcision. It's awesome to have this as a home base, but as much as I loathe it, I do get out & intactivate in more hostile territory, with as much honey as I can muster (and as little as I can get by with ).

I can handle myself in flaming farkwars & vile gossip site comment pages & the abyss that is Usenet- not everyone has the thick skin to deal with the language and overt hostility, but I can put on my hipwaders & dive in the vulgarity (& frolic most gleefully). This place is me being 'sweet'. But I get bogged down in honey (I consider it more HFCS ). If you do well with honey, please use the gift the universe gave you & help on that front. (Then come back here so you don't run mad from the horror!)

Is that a little clearer? (I swear, this seems to be the thread for me lately.)

[Daisyuk]

Originally Posted by Cassandra M.

Riiiiight, well...why don't I just meander on over to those forums? Because, Lord knows, there's no in between approach.


You get more bees with honey....

Yes, please do. Intactivists need ALL the help you can give them on the other boards.

[~Kira~]

If anyone is interested, the Canadian Children's Rights Council (the organization responsible for monitoring compliance with the UN Declarations on Children's Rights here in Canada) classifies male and female circumcision as: Child Abuse, Genital Mutilation, and Aggravated Assault.


http://www.canadiancrc.com/index.html


I'd be curious to know if the organization in the USA that is meant to serve the same role has a similar message on their site, and if not, why?


(Maybe I should start a new thread?)


********************************************

OP - you might want to print off some info from that link above, it is very thorough as well. I would do whatever you feel in your heart is necessary, kick & scream, cry, shout, show her video clips, remind her repeatedly that she will permanently damage him sexually, and so on . . . We are all thinking of you and sending positive thoughts for that sweet boy and for your strength!




- Kira