So angry at my mother....updated

[Ivan's Mom]

OMG! I just told my mother that we were going to Washington DC for the demo and reception and she had this deadtone, "oh" for me as a response. I asked her why she sounded like that and she said she was....get this...."neutral on the subject." WTH? I have told her again and again about circ, all about it. She stood firm during this last conversation and said she really did not care about it one way or the other : She said "I think it is barbaric how they do it and they should use anesthesia, but it really is not a big deal to me." : I cried on the phone and said, "so you think it would have been ok to have Ivan circ'd?" She said "I would not care." I said, "so if I were to get Ivan circ'd tomorrow you would not care?" She said, "Nio, it is not a big deal to me like female circ is." : Keep in mind, she did not even know about female circ until I told her about it. :

I was going to bring my SIL and her new baby to their local LLL meeting this week while visiting my mom this coming week. Now I do not want to go. I am so sad and upset. :

When I mentioned to her that male circ was the same pain that female circ is and that it was like removing a "clitoris" from the baby boy, she still did not care. When I told her that baby boys have died from circ, she said...get this..."not all of them die, very few." : Like there is a certain number of deaths that is ok.

I am so shocked at the cavalier attitude that she presented just now. She said "I had my sons circ'd and they are fine, it was not vogue to not get it done then." Like circ is some fashion statement. :

What do I do. I am not sure how to proceed. I know lots of people have given up on relationships with friends that circ (me included) and relatives, but how about when it is your mother? Before you answer, will you please consider how you feel about your mother/child relationship with your child and with your mother. Not just the one you have with your mother because I know some mother/daughter relationships are horrible. Thanks.

[beckyand3littlemonsters]

[AutumnMama]

I don't know what to tell you Mama, except that maybe she is remaining "neutral" because she is in denial. She doesn't want to admit what she did to her DS's was wrong, and have to face that.

It's like some people just shut off part of their logical thinking when it comes to circ because it's been so ingrained in their minds for so long.

Not that knowing that helps how you feel any I'm sorry.

Edit: As far as what to do...I don't know, she is your Mom, and as awful as it is that she thinks circ is ok maybe you need to just let it rest (easier said than done, I know!) and not discuss it with her anymore.
Perhaps she'll eventually realize everything that you've told her, perhaps not.
I guess I'd just not talk about it anymore.
I would continue to see and talk to her though, I think a mother/daughter relationship can be very valuable (I know some moms can be pretty toxic, if this is the case then feel free to ignore me ). If she was a Dr. actually performing circs then I believe I would feel differently.

s again Mama, I'm sorry you're hurting.

[TigerTail]

I don't think you need to let it rest (other than to give yourself a mental break); there is nothing wrong with being honest about how angry she has made you. She is clearly not able to deal with having signed those papers to get it done to your brothers. ('the vogue'! like what style of penis is in this year?) You can love somebody, have an ongoing relationship with them, & not have to bury your strong feelings about a subject.

[Ivan's Mom]

I spoke with my brother who I am closest to and he agreed with AutumnMama's statement

I don't know what to tell you Mama, except that maybe she is remaining "neutral" because she is in denial. She doesn't want to admit what she did to her DS's was wrong, and have to face that.

He said that I can be quite forceful in what I think is good and poor parenting and she always fits into my definition of "poor parenting" even if I do not blatantly state it as so.

He also assured me that her remarks about Ivan were a knee-jerk reaction and that she most assuredly adored Ivan and would be devastated if he were in pain or had pain inflicted on him.

Thanks for listening

[splash]

Is your mother having any more children? If the answer is no, I would ignore it. It's not a big deal. She feels that way, but is in no danger of having a child to be circumcised, so why does it really matter? My parents think circumcision is fine, too, and I let it go. I don't think it's fine, they do, why fight? They're not having any more children, they're not making penile decisions for my child, it's not worth the argument because their opinion on it doesn't matter.
I'd let it go if I were you. Her opinion is hers alone, and it's not harming any child.

[eloquence]

Originally Posted by Ivan's Mom

. I know lots of people have given up on relationships with friends that circ (me included) and relatives, but how about when it is your mother? .

To give up on a relationship over circ alone, is not good, imo. Perhaps, even arrogant and immature. To use the issue of circ to avoid other issues is the same, imo.

If there are other issues going on and this is bringing them up then I'd talk to my mom when I was able to. If it really is just about the circ, share with her how you feel about her apathy about it and then let her be who she is. Maybe she needs time to see it differently.

[Cassandra M.]

My grandparents are extremely pro circ, and while they won't be circing any boys of their own, they have a huge influence on their grandchildren at this point. I got tremendous pressure to circ my son, and he was born at home..when my grandma came to see him here, he was less than 24 hrs old and she asked if he was circ'ed. : I told her it wasn't something a MW nor myself would do.
I know my cousin circ'ed his son because of a lot of pressure from my grandparents, and it's very sad, because he was the first person to make me question the procedure before I had children of my own.
I definitely take opportunities to educate my grandparents on circ...because I hope the more I say to them the less they push my other relatives.
I still love them tremendously, of course.

[TigerTail]

Originally Posted by splash

Her opinion is hers alone, and it's not harming any child.

Pro-circ people harm specific children as well as society, even if they aren't getting them cut themselves. If my own birthmom had not changed her mind, I would not only have a circ'd brother but a circ'd nephew. She changed her mind as a mother of grown kids, talked to her dd, & saved another child. If she'd been pushing for circ, or even 'neutral', one more child on this earth would have been tortured.

[~Megan~]

She probably is defensive because its hard to admit you have let something so terrible happen to your sons.

[splash]

Originally Posted by TigerTail

Pro-circ people harm specific children as well as society, even if they aren't getting them cut themselves. If my own birthmom had not changed her mind, I would not only have a circ'd brother but a circ'd nephew. She changed her mind as a mother of grown kids, talked to her dd, & saved another child. If she'd been pushing for circ, or even 'neutral', one more child on this earth would have been tortured.

But her mother is not PRO circ. Her mother just is. Her mother is not pushing her to have Ivan circumcised, she's just not throwing her a party for not having him circumcised.
If my parents were brow beating me to have Charlie circumcised, it would be different. As it is, I got a simple "Well, it's cleaner" from my step mom the nurse, and a "I don't think anything is wrong with circumcision" from my circumcised father the doctor. Yeah, they think it's harmless and cleaner, but who cares? They're not out there actively promoting circumcision or making little half penised boys.
My MIL happens to be pretty against circumcision, and she tried numerous times with my SIL to talk her out of it with Zachary, and got royally pissed off at her about it, but she coudln't stop her from doing it. She never even MENTIONED it to us until he was a day old and casually asked if he would be circumcised, we said no, and that was the end of it. Of course, I think she "knew" that we wouldn't.

You're not going to be in agreement with everyone all the time. My MIL might agree with us on circumcision, but thinks Charlie needs to be in his own bed and thinks I take car seats a little too far by buying him good ones and keeping him rear facing to the absolute limits. I don't argue with her about the car seat, I just let it go. So my nephews are in crappy misused seats, and my MIL doesn't care. That's not my problem. I can't make her care about it or think it's worthy, I don't waste my time. I just know that my child will never go anywhere with her, and that's all I can do. Her apathy is harming no one, because she has no children of her own to harm anymore (children children I mean, her children are adults).

If your mother were actively pushing circumcision on everyone, that would be a cause for alarm. But you said she's not. She's just not concerned about it, it doesn't light a fire in her. And that's okay. I have friends who think it's wrong but don't oppose it with the same ferocity that I do, and that's okay. They're not hurting anyone by being passive. It's not their job to convince the world, it's not your mother's. It's a battle that you (and all of us of course) have chosen personally and invest your heart in (as do I) but it is not everyone's battle. Some people just don't vehemently oppose it, and as long as they are not promoting it, I don't see a problem with that. My parents don't think we did anything particularly "good" in regards to the state of Charlie's penis, but they don't think we did anything wrong either. I am happy with neutral ground on this matter. If they were having a son, I would fight them tooth and nail on it, but they aren't, so I don't.

Also, not everyone is cut out to be an activist about anything. Some people are, some aren't. Even if your mother felt very strongly about circumcision, as long as she's not going public with her views (either way), it's not likely to make a difference.

This is just one of those things I think you need to let go. If there are other issues, explore them. But if this is it, then it's minor. It's like trying to get a circumcised man to admit something is wrong with his penis. If he agrees that it's not his place to have his child circumcised, and never plans on having it done, but still says his penis is awesome and totally wonderful, why try to make him "admit" that it isn't?

[Ivan's Mom]

Originally Posted by splash

If your mother were actively pushing circumcision on everyone, that would be a cause for alarm. But you said she's not. She's just not concerned about it, it doesn't light a fire in her. And that's okay. I have friends who think it's wrong but don't oppose it with the same ferocity that I do, and that's okay. They're not hurting anyone by being passive. It's not their job to convince the world, it's not your mother's. It's a battle that you (and all of us of course) have chosen personally and invest your heart in (as do I) but it is not everyone's battle. Some people just don't vehemently oppose it, and as long as they are not promoting it, I don't see a problem with that. My parents don't think we did anything particularly "good" in regards to the state of Charlie's penis, but they don't think we did anything wrong either. I am happy with neutral ground on this matter. If they were having a son, I would fight them tooth and nail on it, but they aren't, so I don't.

Also, not everyone is cut out to be an activist about anything. Some people are, some aren't. Even if your mother felt very strongly about circumcision, as long as she's not going public with her views (either way), it's not likely to make a difference.

This is just one of those things I think you need to let go. If there are other issues, explore them. But if this is it, then it's minor. It's like trying to get a circumcised man to admit something is wrong with his penis. If he agrees that it's not his place to have his child circumcised, and never plans on having it done, but still says his penis is awesome and totally wonderful, why try to make him "admit" that it isn't?

This really makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you for taking so much time to respond. It means a lot.

[Ivan's Mom]

Originally Posted by eloquence

To give up on a relationship over circ alone, is not good, imo. Perhaps, even arrogant and immature. To use the issue of circ to avoid other issues is the same, imo.

If there are other issues going on and this is bringing them up then I'd talk to my mom when I was able to. If it really is just about the circ, share with her how you feel about her apathy about it and then let her be who she is. Maybe she needs time to see it differently.

The apathy was really hard to hear.

In regards to breaking relationships, I broke the most toxic relationship due to her circ attitude as well as many other "toxic attitudes" of hers. Was not worth the pain of hearing her horrible parenting stories. Circ, CIO, anti-bf and so on and so on. I am not so ready to break a relationship with my mom because of "apathy." Thanks for your insight. It helps.

[Daisyuk]

Originally Posted by splash

But her mother is not PRO circ. Her mother just is. Her mother is not pushing her to have Ivan circumcised, she's just not throwing her a party for not having him circumcised.
If my parents were brow beating me to have Charlie circumcised, it would be different. As it is, I got a simple "Well, it's cleaner" from my step mom the nurse, and a "I don't think anything is wrong with circumcision" from my circumcised father the doctor. Yeah, they think it's harmless and cleaner, but who cares? They're not out there actively promoting circumcision or making little half penised boys.
My MIL happens to be pretty against circumcision, and she tried numerous times with my SIL to talk her out of it with Zachary, and got royally pissed off at her about it, but she coudln't stop her from doing it. She never even MENTIONED it to us until he was a day old and casually asked if he would be circumcised, we said no, and that was the end of it. Of course, I think she "knew" that we wouldn't.

You're not going to be in agreement with everyone all the time. My MIL might agree with us on circumcision, but thinks Charlie needs to be in his own bed and thinks I take car seats a little too far by buying him good ones and keeping him rear facing to the absolute limits. I don't argue with her about the car seat, I just let it go. So my nephews are in crappy misused seats, and my MIL doesn't care. That's not my problem. I can't make her care about it or think it's worthy, I don't waste my time. I just know that my child will never go anywhere with her, and that's all I can do. Her apathy is harming no one, because she has no children of her own to harm anymore (children children I mean, her children are adults).

If your mother were actively pushing circumcision on everyone, that would be a cause for alarm. But you said she's not. She's just not concerned about it, it doesn't light a fire in her. And that's okay. I have friends who think it's wrong but don't oppose it with the same ferocity that I do, and that's okay. They're not hurting anyone by being passive. It's not their job to convince the world, it's not your mother's. It's a battle that you (and all of us of course) have chosen personally and invest your heart in (as do I) but it is not everyone's battle. Some people just don't vehemently oppose it, and as long as they are not promoting it, I don't see a problem with that. My parents don't think we did anything particularly "good" in regards to the state of Charlie's penis, but they don't think we did anything wrong either. I am happy with neutral ground on this matter. If they were having a son, I would fight them tooth and nail on it, but they aren't, so I don't.

Also, not everyone is cut out to be an activist about anything. Some people are, some aren't. Even if your mother felt very strongly about circumcision, as long as she's not going public with her views (either way), it's not likely to make a difference.

This is just one of those things I think you need to let go. If there are other issues, explore them. But if this is it, then it's minor. It's like trying to get a circumcised man to admit something is wrong with his penis. If he agrees that it's not his place to have his child circumcised, and never plans on having it done, but still says his penis is awesome and totally wonderful, why try to make him "admit" that it isn't?

:

[~Kira~]

My parents were not remotely enthusiastic when I went to the Symposium last year in Seattle. I was initially really bothered by this, and I think that the onlly thing that has made a difference is how I've become even more vocal and active as an Intactivist IRL since then, so they have had to face it & deal with the fact that this is not some passing phase that I'm going through, y'know?

My mom hates hearing that male circumcision is mutilation because my dad is circumcised, her brothers are circumcised, so she takes it personally when that word is used, even though she obviously knows it is the truth.

When I started my website and creating the T-shirts and so on, it was sort of the final step within the family that people realized that I would NOT BACK DOWN on this, and that they needed to either accept that this is who I am and will be forever or else our family would be divided.

Although my aunt & one cousin are still vehemently pro-RIC, they have stopped bringing it up at family functions, which is probably for the best. I pray that whoever my cousin ends up marrying & having a family with will be level-headed enough and strong enough to not put up with any of his filthy notions about the natural body parts that we are given.

Don't let her bring you down, keep fighting the good fight, keep finding ways to discuss why RIC is a human rights violation, over time, the truth will overpower her denial & her defensiveness.



Lots of love & support!


- Kira

[Ivan's Mom]

Originally Posted by ~Kira~

Although my aunt & one cousin are still vehemently pro-RIC, they have stopped bringing it up at family functions, which is probably for the best. I pray that whoever my cousin ends up marrying & having a family with will be level-headed enough and strong enough to not put up with any of his filthy notions about the natural body parts that we are given.

I would be so angry and : if I had to put up with "vehemently pro-RIC" people! It is hard to believe that anyone would be that way, on that side of the issue : What would posses anyone to bring up circ if it were not to be opposed to it. I never had circ mentioned in my presence before except when a "circ death" was in the news and when I worked at a daycare and some jerk that I worked with made a comment about some little boys intactness to the other teachers. Other than that, I have never heard anyone talk about circ, especially positively. I am the one who brings in up in the realm of human rights discussions.

[Ivan's Mom]

So I called my mother this morning. She was frosty. She brought up our weekend conversation and was very high and mighty as usual. She said I was not fair for backing her into a corner and that she did not have to support every cause I had. That she supported me, but not the cause. I replied with that I felt she was being insensitive to me with her tone of voice when I mentioned the demo. She said that she did not think demonstrations changed anything!!!!! She also said that she worried about Ivan being there. I think she had ideas of demos being like the 1960's anti-war demos with police fire hosing the crowd and such. Also, I had told her about a KFC demo that I went to that PeTA was hosting and some jerk teenagers spit chewed up chicken at me while I had Ivan in the sling : I vowed to never take Ivan to anymore animal-rights demos while he was small. At this one, David will be caring for Ivan and playing on the lawn with the other kids while I had out pamphlets. She never gave me a chance to say that on Sunday.

She also said that she felt the cause was not important because she felt the MGM Bill would never get passed : I told her that the FGM Bill just got passed 10 years ago. Until then it was OK to have your daughter's genitals mutilated and insurance happily paid for it Like you all pointed out, she is older and some ideas are too set in stone. My stepdad just became vegetarian this past year So shows some older people do change

[AutumnMama]

Hope you're feeling a bit better today.

[Microsoap]

This post is short, but still heart-felt in sentiment: It's morbid that she's alright with SOME, or even ONE baby dying from complications from circ... so long as it isn't HER son!

My ex-bf (circ'd) says he's happy being circumcised and I tell him I'm glad he's happy, but he says it doesn't bother him that some guys are unhappy with their mutilated status (<---- I've talked to circ'd guys who are very unhappy being circ'd and call themselves mutilated) because "most" are (happy). But I want him to know-- and I won't let up on him until he agrees with me, which he does after some passionate statements-- that even ONE VOICE counts!

As I said in my first paragraph, your mother tunes out the deaths so long as it doesn't happen to her... but tragically and stupidly, some parents who have had their son die of circ complications, say they will circumcise again. There's the case of the Rhyliegh (sp?) here in Canada. This goes back to deep, deep denial. Same thing can be said with complications, but not death. They're willing to throw the dice again to prove to themselves that they weren't wrong in the first place.

Oh. Look at me. Turns out this IS a in-depth post.