I had no idea homeschooling was illegal in Germany/EU.

[Mirzam]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed...4730-5162r.htm

I find this article very concerning although I am not surprised, after reading John Gatto Taylor's book "An Underground History of American Education" as the US public school system is based on the Prussian/German model of education:

Earlier this month, a German teen-ager was forcibly taken from her parents and imprisoned in a psychiatric ward. Her crime? She is being home-schooled.

All German political parties, including the Christian Democrats of Chancellor Angela Merkel, are opposed to home-schooling. They say that "the obligation to attend school is a civil obligation, that cannot be tampered with."

There are only 300 homeschooling families in Germany out of a population of 80 million and homeschooling parents are being sent to jail over it.

and

The situation is hardly better at the European level. Last September, the European Court of Human Rights supported Hitler's 1938 schooling bill. The Strasburg-based court, whose verdicts apply in the entire European Union, ruled that the right to education "by its very nature calls for regulation by the State." It upheld the finding of German courts: "Schools represent society, and it is in the children's interest to become part of that society. The parents' right to educate does not go so far as to deprive their children of that experience."

It could happen here too:

The United Nations is also restricting the rights of parents. Article 29 of the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child stipulates that it is the goal of the state to direct the education of children. In Belgium, the U.N. Convention is currently being used to limit the constitutional right to home-school. In 1995 Britain was told that it violated the U.N. Convention by allowing parents to remove their children from public school sex-education classes.

[heartmama]

Yes, I find that extremely disturbing. I could never live in Germany.

I know our school system is "based" on their model but the context is so different. America had very strong idea's about a limited role of government--however much things have changed,things like homeschooling thrive in America, and I don't think it's necessarily because the schools stink. They don't stink EVERYWHERE in America, kwim? Lots of communities have great schools, but there are still over a million homeschoolers, at a minimum.

I think Americans do have this sort of wild west /'Don't Mess With Texas'/Get in your covered wagon/back to the land/Watch out for Big Brother thing that is very unique. I don't think there is a comparable value system to it in many european countries. It tends to spring from this cultural pride towards individualism over socialism, and manifests in many odd and very different ways. There is a kind of intrinsic value given to a person who "doesn't take a handout" and "pulls themselves up by their own bootstraps". I think homeschooling is accepted by many people in America because of some form of pride in the above concepts. Many people would consider it absolutely un-American for the government to come right out and say they, not parents, had the right to shape a child's beliefs. That seems "obviously wrong" to many Americans, but that would not be "obviously wrong" to people in many other countries.

[genifer]

I think Americans do have this sort of wild west /'Don't Mess With Texas'/Get in your covered wagon/back to the land/Watch out for Big Brother thing that is very unique. I don't think there is a comparable value system to it in many european countries. It tends to spring from this cultural pride towards individualism over socialism, and manifests in many odd and very different ways. There is a kind of intrinsic value given to a person who "doesn't take a handout" and "pulls themselves up by their own bootstraps". I think homeschooling is accepted by many people in America because of some form of pride in the above concepts. Many people would consider it absolutely un-American for the government to come right out and say they, not parents, had the right to shape a child's beliefs. That seems "obviously wrong" to many Americans, but that would not be "obviously wrong" to people in many other countries.

In fact... I know a homeschooling mother from Germany. I brought this topic up with her and she said that if the schools are very good, which they are in Germany (she said), then a parent has no need to protest (not quoting her word for word). In effect she said that if the parent broke the law by not sending their child to school, they should be jailed. I thought, but didnt say, 'Yeah but these are my children and I dont think they belong to the state and the state has no business telling me what to do with them when I know whats best for them.' I dont think my children belong to me but I believe that its my right and responsibility to raise them as I see fit. To instill the values that I feel are right. I do not feel it is the job/responsibility of the state to do this.

[PumpkinSeeds]

I think this is very well said.

Originally Posted by heartmama

I think Americans do have this sort of wild west /'Don't Mess With Texas'/Get in your covered wagon/back to the land/Watch out for Big Brother thing that is very unique. I don't think there is a comparable value system to it in many european countries. It tends to spring from this cultural pride towards individualism over socialism, and manifests in many odd and very different ways. There is a kind of intrinsic value given to a person who "doesn't take a handout" and "pulls themselves up by their own bootstraps". I think homeschooling is accepted by many people in America because of some form of pride in the above concepts. Many people would consider it absolutely un-American for the government to come right out and say they, not parents, had the right to shape a child's beliefs. That seems "obviously wrong" to many Americans, but that would not be "obviously wrong" to people in many other countries.

[Lillian J]

No, it couldn't happen here - we're so very different in so many ways. It's one thing for us to be concerned about families having the right to homeschool - which, let's face it, is a right we'll never give up (the numbers are great and growing and there will always be a a variety of reasons why it will be legal) - but there are all too many places in the world where children can be put into slavery, beaten, sexually exploited, seized to be soldiers, denied nourishment and education, and basically denied what would otherwise be considered basic human rights if they weren't children.

But keep in mind that part of why it's happening in Germany in regard to homeschooling is because they're so concerned about never again allowing things to get so crazy as they did under the Third Reich. They feel a responsibility to keep certain common human values out front and center for the whole country. This doesn't make it right - just different. We only hear part of the stories on what's going on in other countries - just as they only hear part of ours. - Lillian

[Just Me]

Actaully, HSing was only made illegal by the Nazis. it was for the sole purpose of ensuring that each child received the desired govt indoctrination at school.The law has remained on the books, however.

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by Just Me

Actaully, HSing was only made illegal by the Nazis. it was for the sole purpose of ensuring that each child received the desired govt indoctrination at school.The law has remained on the books, however.

So one way to look at it is that the desire for indoctrination continues - but the things they want to indoctrinate children with have dramatically evolved into things that are anti-Nazi

I'm not trying to defend the policy, by the way - just saying that it's probably not quite what it looks like through our own cultural filters.

Maybe the cultural anthropology student in me is coming out... - Lillian

[heartmama]

I think this is very well said.

Thanks.

For a long time I thought I wanted to move to a country that was socially liberal.

But deep down I am such an individualist, and I am surprised at my own reaction to understanding the expectations in many european countries to raising children outside the family, with a very socialist slant on parenting issues. The idea of taking it upon yourself to refuse vaccines, or school, or whatever just because you think it's best, would be considered absurd to the point of lunacy, dangerous, unthinkable. Children belong to the community, to the state. That idea is just so much more common in Europe. Their version of mainstream parenting seemed at first more 'advanced' which gave me the initial impression that ap parenting must be easier in other countries. But even those which offered fabulous midwifery care, gave a full year of paid maternity etc.--often, it would be unheard of to stay home for more than one or possibly 2 years. It is *expected*, as a Swedish friend told me, that your baby will go to daycare and both parents will work. The whole idea of a stay at home parent is unusual in some of the very places I felt were the most family-friendly. In a sense yes they are family friendly countries. The quality of health and educational care for kids is high, the standard of living for families in general is better. But I could never live with the trade off. I don't homeschool just because schools stink. I didn't stay home just because I couldn't get a job. Those were choices that reflected deeply held values, and I was really shocked at first to realize that those values would make life for me intolerable in the very countries I admire for other reasons.

[Ravin]

Another thing to consider is that the education clause on the Rights of the Child thing do NOT have to be interpreted in a way that precludes homeschooling. The UK signed it and homeschooling is legal there, and the same is true of a number of other countries.

The US gov't couldn't in good concience sign it because then we might actually have to rethink trade arrangements with countries where children are still expected to be part of the work force to the exclusion of going to school. Again, with the perspective of my anthropology studies I don't necessarily think 'child labor' as such is a cut-and-dried thing, but it is very sad when children must miss out on educational opportunities to work to support their families at a young age and at the same time do not get paid fair/living wages, even more so than adults doing the same kinds of work.

[calynde]

Originally Posted by heartmama

Thanks.

For a long time I thought I wanted to move to a country that was socially liberal.

But deep down I am such an individualist, and I am surprised at my own reaction to understanding the expectations in many european countries to raising children outside the family, with a very socialist slant on parenting issues.

In a sense yes they are family friendly countries. The quality of health and educational care for kids is high, the standard of living for families in general is better. But I could never live with the trade off. I don't homeschool just because schools stink. I didn't stay home just because I couldn't get a job. Those were choices that reflected deeply held values, and I was really shocked at first to realize that those values would make life for me intolerable in the very countries I admire for other reasons.

:

Here I am, a California living in Switzerland (which is thankfully not in the EU) where much of what you write totally rings true. I was so quick to complain about CA and could absolutely not wait to get to a more *socialist* place. There ARE so many, many good things here...but for me, you are right...the price is just too high. I feel like I'm withering under these conditions. :

I'm so grateful for the experience here...I now feel like when we do end up going back, I won't have all those ants in my pants anymore. At least I hope so!

[Just Me]

Originally Posted by Lillian J

So one way to look at it is that the desire for indoctrination continues - but the things they want to indoctrinate children with have dramatically evolved into things that are anti-Nazi

I'm not trying to defend the policy, by the way - just saying that it's probably not quite what it looks like through our own cultural filters.

Maybe the cultural anthropology student in me is coming out... - Lillian

Well, yes. They defend the law remaining saying it is to low an identical national imprint and to prevent fanactics indoctrinating their children. Unfortunately, the stigma the nazis placed on home educators to force compliance remains. they have been publicly called paedophilies and menatally ill and worse by officials. The current case involving the teenaged girl forcibly removed from her home for failing an exam is one such example. She failed that subject and others at school and teachers admit she had been withdrawn, and just barely failed on the exam for it (Germany is exam driven) after being HSed so they removed her and put her in a mental insitution saying she is depressed and mentally ill, and blaming it on HSing. Then a prominent dr said HSers were paedophiles. He said this to the media, sparking further outrage.

[Just Me]

I shaould mention here though that American military families living off base and HSing don't get bothered in Germany. Prob as they are temp residents so to speak.

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by heartmama

Thanks.

For a long time I thought I wanted to move to a country that was socially liberal.

But deep down I am such an individualist, and I am surprised at my own reaction to understanding the expectations in many european countries to raising children outside the family, with a very socialist slant on parenting issues. The idea of taking it upon yourself to refuse vaccines, or school, or whatever just because you think it's best, would be considered absurd to the point of lunacy, dangerous, unthinkable. Children belong to the community, to the state. That idea is just so much more common in Europe. Their version of mainstream parenting seemed at first more 'advanced' which gave me the initial impression that ap parenting must be easier in other countries. But even those which offered fabulous midwifery care, gave a full year of paid maternity etc.--often, it would be unheard of to stay home for more than one or possibly 2 years. It is *expected*, as a Swedish friend told me, that your baby will go to daycare and both parents will work. The whole idea of a stay at home parent is unusual in some of the very places I felt were the most family-friendly. In a sense yes they are family friendly countries. The quality of health and educational care for kids is high, the standard of living for families in general is better. But I could never live with the trade off. I don't homeschool just because schools stink. I didn't stay home just because I couldn't get a job. Those were choices that reflected deeply held values, and I was really shocked at first to realize that those values would make life for me intolerable in the very countries I admire for other reasons.

I can't believe someone at MDC wrote this! My dh is European and our experiences there and with family there are similar...yes it's 'boot -strap' -crazy here, yes the heath care could be much better, but honestly, truly, there is a degree of individual freedom (I don't mean talking about how much the gov sucks freedom...they got that, too lol ) that I am grateful to have. Maybe you have to be American to feel it...but it doesn't so much exisit even in lovely, cobblestoned, free health care, whole -month -of- August- off -Europe. : (If you ever need surgery, or a lawyer in August, you better wait until September, too. lol)

And also, here's a dirty little secret...my dh's whole family roared with laughter one August during a mass family vacation in the US. Why? Because my dh got up and made us all expresso while I stayed sitting and chatting. Even the women laughed...and when I asked what was funny, one of the SILs transalted to me "It's just they have never seen a man make coffee". That just wouldn't be funny here. (And yes, I know European men make coffee...somewhere...so no offense. Just sharing a little experience of mine).

[PumpkinSeeds]

It doesn't feel free. With income tax around 50% and sales tax of 19% and we still pay 250 euros a month for health care....

Originally Posted by UUMom

free health care

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by PumpkinSeeds

It doesn't feel free. With income tax around 50% and sales tax of 19% and we still pay 250 euros a month for health care....

So my relatives tell me...but I have been trained in the fine art of not questioning the taxes in Europe by my fellow American liberals... I mean I know the money has to come from somewhere.

I love visiting my dh's home, so it's not like I don't appreciate what they have there. So no Euro-bashing from me.

[PumpkinSeeds]

Originally Posted by UUMom

So my relatives tell me...but I have been trained in the fine art of not questioning the taxes in Europe by my fellow American liberals...

[Lillian J]

Still playing devil's advocate a bit here... :

About the UN idea of who the children belong to or don't belong to - it seems to me that their take is that we're all full human beings, including children, and that the aim is to protect the rights of children to be as full and real as adults'. So the idea is for the whole society to stand for those smaller people and not let the few adults in their lives - even if they're parents - behave as if they own them and can violate their human rights. Horrible things are happening to children all over the world - work slavery, sex slavery, forced fighting as soldiers - abuse of all kinds because of they're being smaller and traditionally having no rights yet. So yes, it's remotely possible that a small minority of comfortable and relatively affluent American families could conceivably need to take some very simple steps at some point to ensure their right to homeschool - although I doubt that would ever happen - but that's really a pretty infinitesimal part of the picture.

What I think... Lillian