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Hydrogen/BioDiesel/Electric/BioFuel Vehicles?  

post #1 of 9
Thread Starter 
Ok, so we might be looking into a new car soon. DF isn't concerned about the "greenness" of things and I was hoping to be prepared when it comes time to convince him.

What are the pros and cons of these? What are the biggest factors of using one over the other? I know some mamas out there have a plethora of links, anyone willing to share?

In all honesty, he'll go with the easiest (upfront or retrofit) conversion and cheapest pricing. I can find so much information, but it all seems so biased.
post #2 of 9
How about a SVO Engine? It seems like they don't have any problems in warm weather areas and no science experiments. You just have to filter any used oils.
post #3 of 9
I was disappointed to find out how hydrogen is produced. While a hydrogen car doesn't produce emissions directly, oil (petrol) is used in producing hydrogen, and there's emissions during that process. So until they make hydrogen fuel cells using solar energy, it's not any better.

Ethanol sounds good, but again, oil is used in the fertilizers (petrochemical fertilizers) for corn. So unless you were able to find ethanol made from organic corn, oil is still involved.

I'm not trying to be discouraging, just wanting you to have as many of the perspectives as possible. That's as much as I know, sorry!

Aven
post #4 of 9
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by avendesora View Post
I was disappointed to find out how hydrogen is produced. While a hydrogen car doesn't produce emissions directly, oil (petrol) is used in producing hydrogen, and there's emissions during that process. So until they make hydrogen fuel cells using solar energy, it's not any better.
Okay, so this argument I don't understand but I hear it come up often.

If hydrogen is created by stripping the hydrogen from a water molecule with electrolysis, how is oil being used?
post #5 of 9
We drive a hybrid electric Ford Escape. We paid $27,000 for it, and we save about $200 each month on gas, though we drive about 50,000km per year, so that makes the savings much larger than someone who drives less (which is almost everyone ). It uses the same amount of gas as our 1999 Honda Civic did, but has room for all of us and all of our things. I am not sure what else to tell you. If you are looking for a sedan, then obviously this won't work for you. If you want something bigger, this is the most efficient overall and cheapest on the market.
post #6 of 9
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~MoonGypsy~ View Post
Okay, so this argument I don't understand but I hear it come up often.

If hydrogen is created by stripping the hydrogen from a water molecule with electrolysis, how is oil being used?
I'd say that it's because the electricity used for electrolysis is generated from oil.
post #7 of 9
Right. Stripping the hydrogen from a water molecule is not an easy process. It takes a lot of energy to make that happen. Unfortunately, they're still using oil-based energy to make that process happen , but they could start using solar, so hydrogen is a step in the right direction from using oil directly, because it least it has the potential of being oil-free. I know, it's terribly frustrating.

Aven
post #8 of 9
I run my diesel Jeep Liberty on biodiesel. I only have a few minutes, but I'll try to give you a rundown on why we chose to go this way when it was time for us to get a new vehicle. And here are some of my past posts on the subject:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...&postcount=888
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...&postcount=893
If you search the whole forum for biodiesel, you'll find more posts from other people on the topic, too, in various subforums. I describe in one of those how we obtain the fuel, our decision on the vehicle, etc.

We wanted to reduce our reliance on petroleum for transportation, but we also didn't want to give up utility in the vehicle (4WD or AWD for safety on our twisty country roads and occasional off-road stuff, towing capacity, etc.). We considered hybrids, but our main reasons for not choosing that option were:

* they're still dependent on gasoline
* none on the market had the capabilities we wanted
* we were nervous about the unproven lifespan of the hybrid powertrain.

Biodiesel is not an environmentally-perfect option, but there isn't a perfectly "clean" choice at this point. After much consideration, we decided it was the most reasonable of the more-environmentally-friendly-than-gasoline choices for us at this time. Some of our reasons for choosing biodiesel:

* The emissions are much, much lower than petroleum fuel for everything except NOX
* The fuel is carbon-neutral, meaning the carbon released when it's burned is equal to the carbon sequestered from the environment by the plant from which the oil was extracted while it was growing (as opposed to burning fossil fuels, which releases carbon into the atmosphere that has been sequestered underground for millions of years, thereby upsetting the balance of the carbon cycle, which is the lynchpin of the whole global warming deal). The absolute carbon-neutrality of bio-d will vary based on the source of oil used to make it, but in all cases it's better than petroleum.
* We can run biodiesel in a proven, reliable, unconverted diesel engine in a vehicle that has all the utility we want and should last a good 300,000 miles (which is a long, long time for us, since we typically drive about 10,000 - 12,000 miles per year).
* We could make the fuel ourselves, if necessary. The possibility of a serious petroleum shortage/gasoline availability problem is not remote, in our opinions. (OTOH, if we can't get biodiesel for whatever reason, we can still run on petroleum diesel, and while it has a pretty bad name among the environmentally-aware, that's blunted considerably by the fact that diesel engines generally get much higher mileage than gasoline engines, so emissions per mile aren't as bad as diesel's "dirty" reputation implies. But we hope to never have to run on it for any significant distance, anyway.)
* We have the option of adding the conversion necessary to run this same vehicle on straight veggie oil, and it's very likely we'll do so after the warrantly is up.

As usual, this ended up a lot longer than I intended. Here are some biodiesel links:
http://www.biodieselnow.com/
http://www.biodieselcouncil.org/
http://www.biodiesel.org/ (this one is a trade organization, so it's more focused on big industry making/using biodiesel than on grassroots and used cooking oil biodiesel)
post #9 of 9
: what AJP said!

we run biodiesel. short version -- you can buy any diesel vehicle, used or new, and run biodiesel in it. in fact, when rudolf diesel designed the diesel engine he designed it to run off veggie oil (peanut i believe). if you do go the used vehicle route the only modification you may or may not need to make is to switch out rubber hoses/gaskets, etc to synthetic since biodiesel is a solvent to rubber and will eat away at it. most newer vehicles have synthetic hoses anyway, though.

i see you're in arizona. here are a few links for you --

where to find biodiesel in arizona -- http://www.biodiesel.org/buyingbiodi...tate.asp?st=AZ (there maybe more locations than this, but these folks have submitted themselves to the biodiesel.org site.) b100 refers to 100% of the fuel coming from non-petroleum sources (veggie oil, typically). b100 biodiesel is often blended with petroleum diesel in varying percentages to give you b5 (5 percent bio) b20 (20 percent bio), etc.

this site tells all about local coops who make their own biodiesel (http://www.b100.org/coops/) which is very cool, but you do not have to do this to run b100. it looks like (from the previous link) that there are b100 pumps in tuscon and phoenix and you can just go fill 'er up and pay and drive away. making it yourself or with a coop is very very cool, but if that's too much for your dh to get into right away, it's not necessary. there's a link to a coop in phoenix i think here -- http://www.dynamite.coop/ .

if you are intrigued, though, girlmark (who is a "famous" biodiesel pioneer and advocate) will be giving a seminar in phoenix on making your own in april -- http://girlmark.com/tour/#phoenix .

hth

eta: one more linky -- http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/
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Mothering › Forums › Natural Family Living › The Mindful Home › Hydrogen/BioDiesel/Electric/BioFuel Vehicles?