How much to expect from 12 year old?

[dharmamama]

As some of you may know, I am relatively new to parenting a 12 year old, so if this questions seems obvious, please forgive me.

How much can I expect from a 12 year old in terms of social graces and politeness? I am furious about something that happened last night.

We went down to visit my dad and step-mom, and my step-mom's mother was there. She had never met Desta before.

For some reason Desta was in a crap-@$$ mood (and wouldn't discuss it with me) and I felt that she was very rude to my parents and my grandmother. Not in anything she said, but in how she just sat on the couch staring vaguely into space and answering people in grunts when they tried to talk to her.

When it was dinner time, Desta sat down at the table and started making under-her-breath comments about the meal and at one point she just got up and walked away from the table, never to return. She never said thank you or offered to help clean up or anything. She basically acted like the fact that my step-mom had served something that she doesn't particularly care for was a personal slam against her.

I wanted to speak to Desta right there about her behavior, but my dad said, "She's 12. She's going to be moody."

I feel like, perhaps that's true, but there is no excuse for being that completely rude to your family. She knows my dad and step-mom very well and LOVES them, so it's not like she was in a new or uncomfortable situation. She was just being atrociously moody.

Is it reasonable to expect better behavior from her?

Namaste!

[nd_deadhead]

My twin sons are 12, and I would be very annoyed if either one of them behaved the way your described!

In our case, we've been teaching them table manners since they were 2 or 3 - participating politely in conversation, NOT commenting about the food, helping to clear the table. Since these are routine habits at home, they translate easily when we are away from home.

If these ARE habits at your house, and she was just in a horrible mood and her behavior was uncharacteristic, you should talk to her about trying to ACT nice around others, even if she doesn't FEEL very nice.

One thing I do with my kids (and have done for years) is review my expectations, particularly if we're going into a situation where they're meeting someone new. Just things like "You'll be meeting some new people tonight, so I expect you to shake hands, look them in the eye, and answer their questions politely". If they do NOT do these things, we talk about it on the way home: "I was disappointed in the way you reacted when I introduced you to Mr H. - what happened? It looked to me like your attitude made him uncomfortable. What could you have done differently?"

If she was in a horrible mood before you left home, you might have suggested she bring a book along, make nice for a few minutes, then sit quietly off by herself and read - which is still a bit rude, but not overtly so! Dinner table manners in our house are non-negotiable. If my kids don't like what is being served, they don't have to eat it - but they are NOT allowed to comment on it (a polite "no thank you" is sufficient). They can make themselves a sandwich AFTER the meal.

It's not too late to talk to her about it now, so you understand each other's POV before your are faced with a similar situation.

[Roar]

I would try to notice but then set aside for a bit your feelings of embarrassment and anger about her behavior for a minute. While it is understandable I'm not sure it will get you closer to a solution to the problem.

My comment on the situation would be that manners are actually pretty complicated. First, they require understanding how other people in the situation may feel. Some people come to this intuitive understanding more readily than other people do. For some it takes a lot of practice to learn. So, that's where I'd start is treating it as an informational problem. Outside of the moment I'd talk about the situation before and after. Who will be there, what will the expected behavior be, how will the host feel if we say thank you, how might she feel if we don't, how will we handle it if the food isn't to our liking, what will we do if x, y, or z happens. This approach can also be used about situations she's not involved in - as scenarios come up in books or movies or whatever.

What were her options given she wasn't in a good mood? I would give her credit she didn't yell at anyone and that she did the best she could under the circumstances. Noticing and crediting positive intent makes a big difference. Is there a way you could make a plan with her to acknowledge the poor mood she was in. Would it be possible for her to take a walk or have some downtime alone. Could you model for her that if she's not feeling well when visiting family that it would be okay to take a break?

I would expect it to take time, repetition and practice. And, in the process she needs to hear lots of positive feedback about the parts she's doing right.

Even for kids who enter the teenage years with a good ability to read other people and imagine outcomes in situations, there may still be times when they are egocentric or moody enough that there will be times when it is difficult to keep it together. A book that may be helpful. http://www.amazon.com/WHY-They-Act-T.../dp/0743260716

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by Roar

What were her options given she wasn't in a good mood? I would give her credit she didn't yell at anyone and that she did the best she could under the circumstances.

Desta is not a yeller. Her way of expressing anger is through grumbling under her breath and giving people nasty looks so that when she is questioned about her anger, she can deny that she has expressed any. It's something that we are addressing in counseling, because she really will not admit to ever being angry.

Her options were to politely ask to be excused and go to the room that Grandpa has set aside for the kids to hang out in when they are there.

She chose not to do that. She chose instead to sit in the living room glaring at everyone and resisting any attempts to be drawn into the conversation. She does this at home, too. She follows me around being angry at me, but when I comment on the things she is doing that indicate anger, she steadfastly denies that she is doing any of them. She wants everyone to know that she is angry but she doesn't want to try to work it out at all.

I'm not embarrassed by her behavior, but I do feel very bad for my stepmother, who went to a lot of work to prepare a meal for 8 people, and for my grandmother, who tried very hard to be friendly despite the fact that she recently lost her husband and is in poor health and was greeted by Desta's icy stares and grouchy monosyllables.

I see what you are saying, Roar, about the ability to understand how her actions affect others. That is something that we are working on at home because Desta has really been very staunch in resisting any attempts on our part to draw her into the family. I think that she does have at least a rudimentary understanding of this, because when she wants something she can be extremely sweet and charming. She never acts with her friends the way she acts with us.

Namaste!

[Roar]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

Desta is not a yeller. Her way of expressing anger is through grumbling under her breath and giving people nasty looks so that when she is questioned about her anger, she can deny that she has expressed any. It's something that we are addressing in counseling, because she really will not admit to ever being angry.

Right. My point was that starting from being positive usually gets people further. While she may not be behaving in the way you wish thinking of the ways, even if they are VERY small, in which she is behaving positively need to be acknowledged. Her effort needs to be noticed even if it is hard to even see. I will say that what you are describing isn't out of the ballpark unusual behavior for 12 year olds on an off day and it sounds like she's had a lot more to deal with than the average 12 year old and it may not be fair to suggest she is supposed to behave like a 12 year old if her developmental age is much lower.

Originally Posted by dharmamama

Her options were to politely ask to be excused and go to the room that Grandpa has set aside for the kids to hang out in when they are there.

One thing we've seen with our kid with anxiety problems is that when he's unhappy or having a hard time he doesn't remember his options. In her situation, I would have talked about those options on the way there. In the moment, if need be I would really positively remind her of her options. If she feels embarrassed to be pulled aside you could have a nonverbal signal to remind her. That said, I would also consider offering her another option. If she'd like to be with the group but is having a hard day, I'd offer the option of hanging out quietly with you - maybe reading a book or knitting or whatever and not having to have the burden of conversation.

Originally Posted by dharmamama

She chose not to do that. She chose instead to sit in the living room glaring at everyone and resisting any attempts to be drawn into the conversation. She does this at home, too. She follows me around being angry at me, but when I comment on the things she is doing that indicate anger, she steadfastly denies that she is doing any of them. She wants everyone to know that she is angry but she doesn't want to try to work it out at all.

So, what is your take on why this happens? Is she just a bad kid? I think it is important to think a bit about her intent.

I can say personally I would HATE it if someone kept saying I was angry or behaving in an angry way. What happens if instead you just remain positive and treat it like you would if she was sick. You wouldn't keep trying to convince a kid they had a cold by pointing out every sneeeze. What happens if instead you adopt the approach that you are glad she's with you and you will respond positively and not give too much weight to the eye rolls or grumbles or whatever?

Originally Posted by dharmamama

I'm not embarrassed by her behavior, but I do feel very bad for my stepmother, who went to a lot of work to prepare a meal for 8 people, and for my grandmother, who tried very hard to be friendly despite the fact that she recently lost her husband and is in poor health and was greeted by Desta's icy stares and grouchy monosyllables.

I suspect they've been around a teenager in a bad mood before and it doesn't particularly rock their world. Personally I'd see it like a would a toddler having a temper tantrum. It seems very understandable considering where she is developmentally and I can't imagine they are taking that personally.

Originally Posted by dharmamama

She never acts with her friends the way she acts with us.

Of course. That normal. Friends expect different stuff, they give different stuff, the relationship is totally different.

[Ruthla]

One thing you need to remember is that Desta is 12, but she hasn't been your daughter for 12 years. You weren't the one teaching her table manners when she was 2 or 3. In some ways, she's more like a 3yo because American life, and your family in particular, are still fairly "new" to her. So you really can't have the same expectations of her that you'd have for a 12yo who's been in your family since infancy. You may need to "treat her like a little kid" and remind her of social expectations before going somewhere. That may help, or it may not.

Yes, adolescents can be moody. Sometimes you can predict when they're upset and what is upsetting them, and sometimes you can't. They can be sweet and helpful and absolutely delightful, and sometimes they're the exact opposite. Just like with toddler temper tantrums, try not to take it too personally!

[sweetbabygirl19]

Originally Posted by Ruthla

One thing you need to remember is that Desta is 12, but she hasn't been your daughter for 12 years. You weren't the one teaching her table manners when she was 2 or 3. In some ways, she's more like a 3yo because American life, and your family in particular, are still fairly "new" to her. So you really can't have the same expectations of her that you'd have for a 12yo who's been in your family since infancy. You may need to "treat her like a little kid" and remind her of social expectations before going somewhere. That may help, or it may not.

Yes, adolescents can be moody. Sometimes you can predict when they're upset and what is upsetting them, and sometimes you can't. They can be sweet and helpful and absolutely delightful, and sometimes they're the exact opposite. Just like with toddler temper tantrums, try not to take it too personally!

Ruthla -- I totally agree with you. A 12 yr old that has grown up with your family and their rules vs. a 12 yr old just joining your family is alot different. That being said I think that it is realistic to expect some degree of respect to others regardless of the situation. IMO a 12 yr old is old enough to understand that we must respect others so others will respect us. ykwim. I remember when dd was 12 and started moody behavior. I tried to think back to when I was 12/13 years old and just tried to reinforce to her that sometimes we all feel moody, but that does not give us the right to not respect others. Just my .02 worth.

[Ninjinmama]

I have a 12yr old son who can often be moody and when through a period of using grunting/exaggerated exhalations as means of communication w/ others and myself. I try not to get too annoyed by it, but will take him aside and point out how his "way" of communication could be hurtful to those around him and simply is very rude. I think sometimes when he is bored or feels something is unfair/unpleasant he gets wrapped up in his own feelings and forgets that he could be affecting others by his actions and responses. Usually he doesn't realize just how rude he is being. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, but it does send him the message that it's not ok to act that way...

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by Roar

So, what is your take on why this happens? Is she just a bad kid? I think it is important to think a bit about her intent.

No, I don't think she is a bad kid. Honestly, I think her intent is twofold: to let out the anger she is feeling (and I don't just mean the anger of the moment; I mean anger she has accrued throughout her life) without running the risk of being rejected for feeling it (hence the denying that she has done it) and also to create a distance between us so that she doesn't have to acknowledge painful feelings. I know that those things sound counter-intuitive, but Desta has attachment issues and I think that the intimacy of a family is not comfortable to her at this point.

The thing that drives me nuts about the situation is that Desta is able to "flip the switch" so to speak whenever she wants. She can behave beautifully if she thinks there is something in it for her. If everything is not going her way, however, she treats the people around her like dirt.

Something we are struggling with is the fact that she only treats us nicely when she wants something from us. If she doesn't think she needs us for anything at that particular moment, then she is rude and obnoxious and sulky.

I guess this situation goes much deeper than just "Can I expect her to behave politely to people?"

I can say personally I would HATE it if someone kept saying I was angry or behaving in an angry way.

I don't "keep" saying this to her. Once or twice a week I will point out to her that scowling is usually an indication of anger or frustration or whatever. Or I will say that when someone is grumbling under their breath, it often means that they are dissatisfied with the situation. I don't harp on her about it or make long lists of her behaviors. But our counselor has suggested that we start talking to her about feelings and their indicators.

What happens if instead you adopt the approach that you are glad she's with you and you will respond positively and not give too much weight to the eye rolls or grumbles or whatever?

Nothing. When Desta decides she's angry at me (or dh, or whomever), that's usually it for the day. Nothing I do diffuses her anger.

Really, what I am hoping for is that, in the process of learning to identify and work through her feelings, she can at least not treat people so rudely. I know that Desta knows what appropriate behaviors are because, like I said, she displays them when she wants something. But everything is completely on her terms.

Namaste!

[terrordactyl]

sounds like me when i was 12

[Roar]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

No, I don't think she is a bad kid. Honestly, I think her intent is twofold: to let out the anger she is feeling (and I don't just mean the anger of the moment; I mean anger she has accrued throughout her life) without running the risk of being rejected for feeling it (hence the denying that she has done it) and also to create a distance between us so that she doesn't have to acknowledge painful feelings. I know that those things sound counter-intuitive, but Desta has attachment issues and I think that the intimacy of a family is not comfortable to her at this point.

Several posters in this thread have suggested 1. That this is not uncommon behavior and 2. That she's developmentally younger than 12. Do you think it is time to alter your expectations? Is that something you are willing to do and what would that look like?

Originally Posted by dharmamama

The thing that drives me nuts about the situation is that Desta is able to "flip the switch" so to speak whenever she wants. She can behave beautifully if she thinks there is something in it for her. If everything is not going her way, however, she treats the people around her like dirt.

Again I think that is totally normal. Have you ever had a day when you are exhausted, in a bad mood, feeling snippy with those around you, but the phone rings and it is an old friend...are you the same degree of irritated with them as you were with the kids who have been whining? Or, does it flip like a switch for you? I suspect most of us have had the experience of feeling totally irritated with our families but not at all irritated with friends or irritated with the kids but not with the spouse/partner.

If you don't believe attachment is all just a choice for her, then it seems to me this needs to be treated more like any other variable out of a person's control. Otherwise it is like saying "sometimes her blood sugar is great and other days it is perfectly normal and it gets on my nerves".

Originally Posted by dharmamama

Really, what I am hoping for is that, in the process of learning to identify and work through her feelings, she can at least not treat people so rudely.
Namaste!

It may not be a significant distinction to some, but I can say personally it would be important for me to focus less on her manners and more on the way she's feeling. The part that is a problem about her feeling angry all the time is that it must a terribly hard, painful way for her to live. That's a much bigger, more significant thing that does she politely make small talk when we want her to.

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by Roar

Several posters in this thread have suggested 1. That this is not uncommon behavior

Yeah, and to some degree it probably is. However, Desta's behavior is not merely "She's a hormonal pre-teen." It goes deeper than that, and perhaps it's something you have to live with day and in day out to see how it is different.

It may not be a significant distinction to some, but I can say personally it would be important for me to focus less on her manners and more on the way she's feeling.

Yeah, and I spend a huge proportion of my life doing so. However, in the meantime, I think we also need to work on ways to curb some of the more (what our counselor terms) "aversive" behaviors that she displays, because they don't serve her well.

Namaste!

[lolar2]

When I was eleven I moved from the US to Taiwan, and then at 13 I moved back to the US. The difference in etiquette practices between the two countries confused the heck out of me (in both places!) and sometimes I literally had no idea how to act, especially around new people. So sometimes I'd resort to the sullen pre-teen act, on the basis that I was going to get in trouble for being rude no matter what I did [ex.: "will these adults be offended if I don't look them in the eye, or if I do look them in the eye?" and I knew I would guess wrong], so I might as well not bother trying to be polite. I realize Desta's situation is more complicated, but learning the etiquette of a new country is quite difficult and might be at least a small factor. Especially how to act towards elders; figuring out how to act towards peers is faster.

[Dar]

I think you're right in saying that the attachment issue is at the heart of the problem. In some 12 year olds, it would be a variant of normal adolescent behavior, but I don't think that's so for Desta. It seems to me that one of the core issues of attachment is for the child to orient to you, and to take her cues from you... and one of the core issues of adolsecence is to become independent and not as oriented to parents. So, Desta's dealing with two contradictory issues at once...

I would stick to a factual approach - telling her that the way she acted was inappropriate, telling her the effect the behaviors had on others, and giving her behavioral parameters you expect her to go by next time. I think yes, you can expect better behavior... maybe not great behavior, but small steps...

dar

[UUMom]

Originally Posted by Dar

I think you're right in saying that the attachment issue is at the heart of the problem. In some 12 year olds, it would be a variant of normal adolescent behavior, but I don't think that's so for Desta. It seems to me that one of the core issues of attachment is for the child to orient to you, and to take her cues from you... and one of the core issues of adolsecence is to become independent and not as oriented to parents. So, Desta's dealing with two contradictory issues at once...


dar

You are going to be a brilliant PhD candidate.

I just wanted you to know I think that.

And I also have many hugs for Desta's mamma. It cannot be easy.

[Susie1]

Did Desta want to go in the first place?

[Kirsten]

Originally Posted by Susie1

Did Desta want to go in the first place?

That was my first thought also.

I really agree with the poster who mentioned that the expectations we'd have for a 12 year old that we raised from infancy or even toddlerhood are different than the expectations we'd have for a 12 year old that just came to our family. If it were a 12 year old you had from birth, I'd say you could expect more in terms of manners - even if she had to fake it. In this case, I think you are in a tougher spot.

I also agree with stating clear expectations in the car before arriving. I do this with my kids (10, 6 and 3). Where we are going, who we'll see, what we'll do, my expectations for behavior. My dd1 is funny; I'll start in and she'll stop me with "I know, I know, please and thank you, help out, don't fuss over where I sit or which glass I get - geez, Mom! I know!" I guess she's heard the spiel a few times...

My oldest will be 11 this summer. I do think that hormones of pre-teens and teens can have an effect on their behavior. As can being tired or hungry - just like our toddlers (which we can all understand a lot better) or even ourselves.

I think you are in a tough spot, OP. I'd want to get her up to speed on reasonable expectations for her age - in a way that is fair for her, given that she is new to your family and this culture. I'm glad you have some professional help with it. Hang in there!!!

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by Susie1

Did Desta want to go in the first place?

Yes, she loves to go to Grandpa's. I don't know what her mood was about because it developed on the ride to Grandpa's and when I tried to talk to her about it when we got there, she denied being in a mood and walked off in the middle of our conversation.

Dar, can I be you? :

Namaste!

[dharmamama]

While Desta and I were in the car last night, I told her that I wanted to talk to her about what had happened at Grandpa's. She was all like, "What happened at Grandpa's? Nothing happened at Grandpa's." I told her that I was not happy with how she muttered under her breath about the dinner, walked away from the table without a thank you or clearing her plate or helping to clean up, and sat on the couch glaring at people. She denied doing any of this. I said that the things she had done were impolite and made everyone else feel uncomfortable and that if she was angry about something I wished she would talk to me about it. She said she was not angry about anything and that the whole evening was fine.

Rather than argue with her about this, I simply said, "The next time we visit someone I expect that you thank them for any food they serve you, help clean up, and speak politely to people."

Silence.

Namaste!

[lolar2]

Spelling things out like that should be helpful!