Oh wait, back to banging my head into a wall! *post 77* - Page 3

[Muaile]

Oh and I'm only strict when my dd acts badly, we have a very good relationship, and a really fun time as a family. But I take no shit. So she doesn't try it on. Therefore we have a great time.

[PikkuMyy]

I'm editing the first part of this post as I was mixed up about which forum I was in and thought I was in GD. Sorry about that! I still think that taking away a child's posessions is not a good idea for many reasons.

However, it is against the UA to use profanity in any forum and I think that "I take no shit" is not an appropriate phrase to use when discussing the immature actions of an angry child.

As for the OP - I normally read your posts with interest and agreement, Synthea, so keep that in mind with my reply. I think that counseling is absolutely warranted for a child who spent her attachment-creating years in a violent home, who has a sibling with a developmental disability, who lives with a grandfather who has anger issues, and who obviously has anger issues that are not in proportion to the events angering her. I work with children with developmental disabilities, and I have to say that almost 100% of their siblings need some counseling. Just having a sibling with disabilities of any type causes a lot of emotional issues with children both related to their roles as a child/sibling/helper and to their relationship with their parents. I highly recommend "Being the Other One": growing up with a sibling with special needs by Kate Strohm.

Your daughter's behavior is not normal teenage behavior. I was a very angry teenager for a variety of reasons but I never kicked holes in the wall because I couldn't use the computer. I wonder how it makes her feel when you argue with your DH. She could be experiecing PTSD, or worrying that if you argue, it might lead to violence, even if it never has before. Because those fears and feelings are very hard to overcome. So she might be reacting to that.

Furthermore, she is entering a stage of life where she is starting to be more independent and have more independence expected of her, but she is not yet prepared for it. And given how much younger her siblings are (I'm not sure which has the disability), this can create feelings of anger and confusion in her. So on the one hand, she is starting to be included in those grown-up decisions and yet she obviously is resentful about the amount of time you need to spend caring for her brothers and your father. And feeling resentful about having to care for a sibling with a disability and being unable to do certain things because of it is very common. Particularly with developmental disabilities. There's also the fact that since she is so much older than all of her siblings, none of them can be playmates like, say, a sibling of 1-2 years difference could be. Then there are several, AND one has a disability that requires even more care. (thinking about it from her stance.)

I might start, if I were you, by reading the book I suggested and perhaps dealing with that aspect of the family first. Many children are unsure of how much responsibility/care they are supposed to give the sibling with a disability - often the role model they get is just the parent, who obviously has a different relationship with the sibling than they should. Many of the siblings I interact with of my students try to take on a more parental role than is natural or developmentally appropriate because that is what they see modeled for them (of course!) And this often makes them feel like they need to be more responsible than they really do. I work with them to help them find a role for themselves that lets them interact in a "helpful peer" way rather than a parental way.

There are therapists who specialize in families with a child with a disability. There are also peer support and activity groups for siblings of children with disabilities that are free which sounds like it might be good for your daughter to both talk to other kids about what it's like, and to have more typical peer activities.

There's also the issue that you brought up of moving a lot, and of her not being able to develop friendships because of moving and homeschooling, and I bet she has to spend a lot of time with her younger siblings and watching you having to split your time between doing her home schooling and caring for them. It must be really annoying to have little kids interrupting your school all the time.

This is a bit rambling, I realize, but I'm just trying to get all my thoughts out there. Basically, I think there are several issues contributing to her behavior, and they must be addressed one at a time. I can totally understand you wanting to tear your (or her!) hair out - it sounds very overwhelming, especially to see her displaying behavior that you never do. If she was in public school, she could receive counseling there. As she isn't, I would look around the area and see what is available. Are there any homeschooling coops or groups you could join? Some switch where the school is offered each day so that several families share houses and schooling. It sounds like you also spend all day together, with exception of scheduled activities, and if you are having issues with each other, that's never going to give you each time to cool off and think about things without the other person being there.

Also - how much time do you get to yourself with four children and a father to care for? Do you have a regular babysitter or respite provider so that you can spend time with your DH alone, or does he spend regular time with the children so you get some alone time for yourself?

[mama3x's]

She didn't say she took all her belongings just the good stuff. But what do I know I'm new her too.

The only advice I have is to keep a cool head. Sounded like to me she is trying to get a reaction out of you. I would definately have some unpleasant consequence but limit the amt of attention the behavior gets. Also, I kinda had a couple meannie grandparents and it was very hurtful to me as a young teenager. So don't minimize the impact from your dad. Everyone always talks about how much grandparents love their grandchildren and here she has this jerk putting her down. I bet in some way she thinks its b/c there is something wrong or unloveable about her.

Good luck, I'm sure it'll get better.

[Yoshua]

havent read all the replies, just the op and a couple below it.


Your daughter sounds alot like my brother and I as children, except we used basebal bats and fists instead of feet for the walls. Or eachother for that matter.


I had no reasons to be angry, I just was. I felt oppressed almost all of the time weather I was or wasn't and when someone actually attempted to overtly excersize authority over me it went bad.

My brother was the same way but he had reasons for his anger, least from the outside looking in, and he is 3+ years older than me.

So from my experiance there may be no answer to this. Things will get better but it will take self realization for your daughter to do it. My mom tried counselors for my brother, it made things worse, but I think that is because that specific counselor encouraged my brother to beat inanimate objects which included trees, the outside of hte house, and furniture, and when he went for furniture my mom said 'enough of counseling.'


Looking back on it I think it is a natural tendancy for youth trying to find themselves to try to exert control over their surroundings, and when they are reminded that they really have ZERO control they get angry and will possibly express that anger abruptly and how they feel nessesary. Your daughter is currently venting this anger on your walls. You may want to look at this from another perspective.


Your daughter is what? 12? she is still a child in your, and most other peoples, eyes. However she feels the inbetween phase. If she doesn't want you exerting your authority over her there has to be middle grounds. Grounds where you all can have a sit down conversation that all can agree to. My suggestion is letting her have FIRST say and not rebutting ANYTHING you can avoid rebutting. Basically everyone sit down, not including siblings, and you lay down the topic of the conversation and ask her if she has any input. The topic I would lay down is that, if I was in the situation with my experiance, is that "I understand that you are becoming a lovely young woman and you want to experiance everything involved with this, and we want to help you get those experiances. What can we as a family do to bring you up in partnership in the household?" Find your own way of expressing it, but something along the lines of acknowledging she is becoming more mature and with maturity comes responsibilities and PRIVILAGES.

Get HER to outline what responsibilities she thinks are fair but let her know you may be adding some, and ask her what privilages she would like to test out and see where she goes with that. Let her know that you know she will make mistakes along the way, thats human, and she won't lose the privilages so long as she can come up with ways ON HER OWN to fix the mistakes she makes.



I could be entirely off base, but I've worked with troubled youth and 9 times out of 10 they are troubled because they feel oppressed because of their age. It is up to the parent to find ways to emphasize the privilages and responsibilites aspect and what happens when an adult falls short and how an adutl reacts to certain failures. If the household isn't providing and example for the words you use though, then the whole plan will fall through.


Also let her know that as adults you and your SO/DH (whatever) will also be making mistakes and when it is something in the open you may want to consider bringing her into confidence (when appropriate) to how you or papa are handling the mistakes on your ends and what you do to rectify them as adults.



Plans like this take time to mold and never work out at first, the child will almost ALWAYS test to see if you are lieing about taking privilages away, multiple times, by breaking the rules and seeing if you will truly treat them as somewhat of an equal in matters when they make mistakes. The beginning of this plan can be hard, but it CAN work if you are dedicated to it as a parent.






If nothing in that makes sense to you, then don't even listen to it, just my perspective from being a 'child' feeling oppressed to an adult helping children dealing with parents whom they find oppressive. There are always middle grounds, you just have to work to find them.

[Yoshua]

Originally Posted by Synthea™

She wasn't being punished when I sent her to her room, she hadn't even asked yet to play on the computer. DH and I started arguing, I stopped, asked DD to go read in her room, she complained she wanted to play on the computer and stormed off. It was like : I went in to talk to her, tell her I wasn't mad at her and say I was sorry for making her leave and she just glared at me, it wasn't til about 20 minutes later that DH discovered the hole.

just wanted to focus on that. You didn't do anything wrong, you weren't punishing her. But from her perspective, in my opinion even if she can't verbalize it because at that age I know I had no idea why I felt the way I did, she feels that she has no control over the situation, she just has to do what you say. And then she overts control over what she can.

My brother would wind up beating the hell out of me when someone did this to him because I was an easy target and he felt the need to express the control he had over something smaller than him because someone bigger was expressing control over him....


just my perspective and most people don't see it that way as an adult telling their children what to do. And most kids won't react the way your daughter is, so my advice from my last post stands.

[purslaine]

"Welcome to MDC, Muaile. I see you are new here and only have a few posts, so I wanted to give you a reminder of what the Gentle Discipline forum is about. Going into your child's room and taking all of her belongings is not part of gentle discipline. Here are some alternatives to consider."

PikkuMyy

Not to nitpick, but this isn't the Gentle Discipline Forum. It is the Preteen and teen section. Aren't most forms of dicipline allowed to be discussed here?

How is it going, Synthea? Sending good vibes to your household

kathy

[Yoshua]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

"Welcome to MDC, Muaile. I see you are new here and only have a few posts, so I wanted to give you a reminder of what the Gentle Discipline forum is about. Going into your child's room and taking all of her belongings is not part of gentle discipline. Here are some alternatives to consider."

PikkuMyy

Not to nitpick, but this isn't the Gentle Discipline Forum. It is the Preteen and teen section. Aren't most forms of dicipline allowed to be discussed here?

How is it going, Synthea? Sending good vibes to your household

kathy

So long as you aren't advocating violance of any kind towards children, then yes. So long as your advice/conversation is about the tennants of mothering, then yes.

[Mama Dragon]

I really appreciate these posts. No time to get into a lengthy post right now, but I'm glad I posted. I'll come back and address individual points and questions later

[Yoshua]

also after thinking about it.


If, for example, your daughter was having a conversation with her daddy that she felt was important and said 'please go to your room now' and you said 'but I need to finish.... (thinking of something you may like) knitting this sweater!(just go with it)' and she said 'now please' and you went, you as an adult would understand, through your experiance, that she had something important to discuss and you would get over the small sleight of being asked to leave the situation for her benefit.

However your daughter doesn't have that experiance yet. She is learning how to deal with being asked to leave, however being asked to leave previously in her life has probably generally been something of a disciplinary action (if she is like most children), so even though you did not intend it to be any form of discipline, she may automatically get the same emotions she has gotten since she was 3 and asked to leave a situation instinctually.

That isn't something that can be trained/taught and then turned off just because someone else wants you to understand. If being asked to go to a room has been a punishment before, basically no matter how it is worded, it could be a trigger for her to get angsty (is that a word) and want to express it. Knowing that if she expressed it to your face it would produce immediate results she wouldn't want she bottled it up and let it out when it boiled over.




all conjecture (s/p) but just laying it out.....Trying to work through this in my head from as many child points of view as possible. Understanding all points of view is how I try to resolve situations in my life. Can you tell?

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by Synthea™

I know when she was little, seeing me beat up by her bio dad, affected her

Your daughter needs counseling. That combined with living with a developmentally delayed sibling could stress any child to the breaking point.

I read and understood your whole post. I am also dealing with an extremely angry child. My 12 year old was adopted 10 months ago. She is HIV+, watched her parents die of AIDS, was separated from her siblings, and spent 4 years in an orphanage. Then she was brought to a place where she hates the food, had to learn the language, had to adapt to a family environment, etc. I understand about angry kids, believe me.

Your daughter needs counseling.

Anger like your daughter has cannot be "treated" by you. It's very possible that watching you be abused created attachment issues. That's not something you can sort out yourself. Honestly, get over your lack of trust of counselors and find one for your daughter. Almost every city/town has free/sliding scale fee counseling. Call your local United Way or your local children's hospital. Ask your pediatrician or your librarian (ours has an astonishing knowledge of local resources). If your child goes to school, ask her teacher. Someone will know where to send you.

For the wall-kicking episode, require your child to do chores to earn the money for the materials to patch the wall. Have her patch the wall. If it is not perfect, have her patch it again. Rinse and repeat.

We use behavior modification with our daughter. Anger may explain her behavior but it is not a license to continue to act that way. Until she has resolved the anger to the point that she is capable of choosing to act appropriately, we lay the rules and consequences out plainly and make things very simple. The rest of the family can not be held hostage to our daughter's bad behavior.

We even have consequences for bad attitude, because the bad attitude in our home was stressing my younger kids so badly that that their behavior was deteriorating. We hold our daughter accountable for her role in preserving the family peace. We take as much emotion out of it as possible and treat it like a chore. At this point, as our daughter learns to live in a family, that is what she needs. It may very well be the same with your daughter. There is no telling how much witnessing your abuse affected her.

Hugs to you, mama.

Namaste!

Ps. Forgot to say: If you lose your deposit over the hole, have your daughter pay the deposit.

[PikkuMyy]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

Not to nitpick, but this isn't the Gentle Discipline Forum. It is the Preteen and teen section. Aren't most forms of dicipline allowed to be discussed here?

kathy

Me and my big mouth. I was reading Gentle Discipline right before I read this thread and because it was discipline-related, I just blended the two. Sorry about that - I will go and edit.

[Muaile]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

"Welcome to MDC, Muaile. I see you are new here and only have a few posts, so I wanted to give you a reminder of what the Gentle Discipline forum is about. Going into your child's room and taking all of her belongings is not part of gentle discipline. Here are some alternatives to consider."

PikkuMyy

Not to nitpick, but this isn't the Gentle Discipline Forum. It is the Preteen and teen section. Aren't most forms of dicipline allowed to be discussed here?

How is it going, Synthea? Sending good vibes to your household

kathy

Hey hey hey, first of all I take her nintendo and her "cool clothes" away when she acts badly, I don't hit or beat my kid. I have an extremely well behaved child who understands actions = consequences.

I certainley take enormous umbrage with it being implied that this is not Gentle discipline? What is gentle then? Talking about it? Eh... come on... isn't parenting a bit past the "lets talk about why you hit your brother?" that NEVER works.... children need authority without fear. Thats what we have in my house....

God remind me never to offer good advice.

As for the language issue, my apologies, I'm from ireland and we curse alot!

[MillingNome]

Originally Posted by Muaile

Talking about it? Eh... come on... isn't parenting a bit past the "lets talk about why you hit your brother?" that NEVER works.... children need authority without fear. Thats what we have in my house....

I disagree. My intent is to get my dc to a point where even if no one is around to enforce the rules, they will still do the right thing. I want my dc'c authority to stem from their own sense of justice and peace. If I train them that I am an authority figure and the enforcer or someone else is, how then can I expect them to be truly free?

[purslaine]

Muaile...I think there may have been a miscommunication (which never happens on the internet where we can't talk face to face )... I was defending your right to offer up what has worked in your household.

As a side note, I also remove priveleges when deemed necessary (in addition to other forms of guidance) and it does work. Peace.

Kathy

[Muaile]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

Muaile...I think there may have been a miscommunication (which never happens on the internet where we can't talk face to face )... I was defending your right to offer up what has worked in your household.

As a side note, I also remove priveleges when deemed necessary (in addition to other forms of guidance) and it does work. Peace.

Kathy

: I quoted the wrong person! I was offering a tip so I got a bit frazzled when replies came in that seemed to imply I was being a bad parent.

I have to say, I may be new here, but I'm not new to parenting. I've raised my dd by myself until two years ago, and I have never ever had anyone, not a teacher, my mother, my friends, neighbors, nobody has ever had anything but praise for how nicely behaved she is and what a joy it is to have her around. I know thats down to her feeling secure and safe with me. I truly truly believe that children feel safe knowing their boundaries. I do not think children will choose the right path in their lives without boundaries at home. I know alot of people think thats the way, I've seen nothing but bad results with that type of parenting. I've seen the children of people who "talk through" problems take the absolute water out of their parents. It may work for other people but I think there is a huge risk of the child becoming manipulative and using key words and subjects to get out of trouble. I did it myself. Any time I wanted to get out of having disrupted a family meal I would say a boy had broken my heart, instead of admitting I was just being a brat.

I'm sorry if people have got the impression that I'm some sort of tyrant....

[Mama Dragon]

Still not quite ready for formulate a large post (maybe when the little ones are napping) but I want to pop in and say all the responses are appreciated, including your Muaile. Your system works for you and your DD and if she isn't acting out like my DD, you're obviously doing better then I am.

[captain optimism]

You do not sound like a bad mom to me. Let me review what I have learned from reading your thread:

* You got out of an abusive marriage, protecting her from further harm
* You are willing to do what it takes to make schooling work for her, whether it's homeschooling or public school
* You hold her accountable when she breaks things, requiring her to clean up the mess if she's not able to actually fix the hole properly.
* You support her in conflicts with her grandfather
* You are modeling taking care of a difficult family member by taking your dad in (to me, that's significant and good.)

Here's what other people have said upthread that I agree with:

* the trauma of being a witness to violence in an important formative stage may have compromised her resilience. If she has anger issues, they might require clinical treatment to improve.

(I know that some people in the helping professions are jerks. I believe you have the ability to pick someone who is actually good and will help.)

*there are some interventions that you can do now to undo the harm of the earlier violence. Actually, it sounds like you probably are doing them.

* You can ask her for her input on how to resolve the problems you are having with her. She's 11 and she knows what she is doing is wrong. Maybe she also has ideas about how to improve her own behavior. That can start even before she gets therapy. Take her seriously as an expert on her own misbehavior and how to fix it.

[mamaduck]

Your system works for you and your DD and if she isn't acting out like my DD, you're obviously doing better then I am.

Please don't think this way! Nobody here is raising your dd except for you... so none of us have the particular expertise that you have with your child. She is a unquiqe individual with a complicated history. She requires individualized care and nurture. What works for Muaile's daughter might well push your dd over the edge and make things even worse. It really sounds like you've been there for your kid in all the right ways.

[purslaine]

No problem, Muaile...

Synthea - I was thinking about your situation....

First off, I would make her patch this hole and any further ones (and worry about the deposit privately and later...her learning not to do this sort of thing is more important, kwim?) I would also make her pay for the repair supplies.

I have been thinking about counselling, and I know not everyone is going to choose it. Some people have great results and somehave negative results and some just waste their money...but how about a youth or family anger management group? It is OK for her to be angry...but learning how to recognise the physical symptoms behind when she is climbing that anger mountain, what the true feelings behind that anger are (fear, frustration, hurt), and ways to talk herself down before she makes a hole in the wall are all key. I think groups can be safer for some families than individual counselling, and may let her see other kids who are a) in her boat - she won't feel so alone and b) other kids and the natural consequences their poor anger management has gotten them.

Kathy

[Mama Dragon]

Ok, #3 is watching zaboo and #4 is asleep, lets see if I can get this all typed out

I like the anger management idea. Though the movie comes to mind and my DD would kill her counselor I will check into services around here. If DH's work insurance (available in 3 months) doesn't cover counseling, I'll suck it up and go apply at welfare for state medical. Trying to avoid them, I hate Oregon's system. I think having someone else tell her how to vent her anger will help a lot.

We don't send her to her room as punishment. I have never done that. As Dennis the Menace and I both learned, the bedroom is the perfect place to be punished because there's fun stuff in there! She loses allowance, computer time, TV time, and has to do extra chores. So, asking her to go go to her room while DH and I argued wasn't, or shouldn't, have been seen as mean/punishment. She was just pissed off over not being able to play on the computer right then.

I haven't gotten to the library yet, to check out any books. Trying to do the library with this bunch requires DH, and sometimes the National Guard, so we only go when we run out of anything to read. I will though.

DD has lost her allowance until further notice. She was getting $10 a week and starting to see the rewards from it (bought her own rollerblades) so it's a fair punishment I think. The money she's not getting will go towards fixing the hole, which is going to take an entire plasterboard panel, it's that big, and figuring out how to do the texture on these walls.

DD does sometimes resent her bother(s). She treats them well but does quite often act like a big sister and pick on them. She doesn't get away with everything she does with them, but I don't come down hard on her for teasing them.

Before the babies came, I got one on one time with each of the older ones all the time. It was nice. She still acted like this though. Once DS3 is weaned/weaned enough, we'll resume "dates", and I've let her know that would happen.

Little one waking up, I'll go over the posts again later and address the stuff I didn't get to. Thank you for the advice and kind words, though I suppose until DD has grown up I will never feel like I've been successful with her.