Oh wait, back to banging my head into a wall! *post 77* - Page 5

[Mama Dragon]

Maybe she needs more compassion?

Please read all my posts:

DH and I are affectionate with each other, we love the kids, we talk to them, we care and we show it.

I do talk to her, and just let her talk without any judgement, but I guess it's not enough. I give her us time, DH gives her time. I truly feel like it's a "no matter what I do, it'll never be enough" because I'm giving her the us time, the love, the time for herself, the ability to be herself. I ask out of her no more then she can handle and bust my ass every day to make sure she knows she's loved and we want her in our home and in our family.

I distinctly, and painfully, remember the years from about 8-15 (when I got pg and actually grew up). I remember the pain and loneliness and helplessness and fear and hatred and jealousy of other kids...maybe I'm trying to hard to make her happy and just need to let her be? Everything else I'm doing, all the hands on, caring stuff, isn't working.

As for counseling for the previously witnessed abuse:

She was only 3 when it happened, and she was in a couple years of counseling then for everything that was going on. She was kicked out finally because there was nothing wrong and the insurance wouldn't pay anymore! The only thing she can remember from our big fight is that her bio dad stepped on her foot on accident and she cried. Counseling couldn't bring any more out of her, so I don't think there's any more to remember, where she was so young. I have no memories before the age of 5 myself.

My dad:

My dad: I stick up for her and back him the hell off immediately and abruptly. He's from a very odd era and thinks his way is right, so it's a never ending battle. We talk about how he is going senile often so she understands he's lonely and just doesn't understand the right way to ask for attention. She mostly ignores him. DH is a great dad for the whole male role model thing.

[dharmamama]

Synthea, you seem to have decided that 1) because your daughter was only three when she witnessed the abuse and 2) because she's already been to counseling, the issue is closed and she's left it behind.

I think that's a very shortsighted way of looking at it.

Anger and trauma can re-emerge at many stages of life.

It's clear from your daughter's behavior that *something* is going on with her, and I honestly don't think it's for you to decide that it couldn't possibly be the abuse she witnessed as a young child. Maybe you are right and that's not it, but I think it bears some investigating.

I could very easily say that things that happened to my daughter as a young child no longer affect her, but her behavior says otherwise.

[rayo de sol]

Originally Posted by Synthea™

Please read all my posts:

I did! I've read every single word of this entire thread, and I thought carefully about the whole situation before responding. It kind of hurts my feelings that you have responded to my ideas in such a snarky, dismissive manner. I thought that since I have been where your daughter is now maybe my insights could be of some help. I wasn't trying to imply that you're not being compassionate at all, but the way I see it, there's always room for more compassion towards people.

[magster]

Maybe I remember this wrong (i.e it happened to the DD of another poster, not the OP), but wasn't it your daughter who last year went to live in another state with friends of yours and the husband in that household was arrested while in company of your DD and there was a CPS inqueiry before you got her back home?

If so, that incident alone would warrant tons of counseling, I think. If I confuse you woth another poster, please ignore.

In either case, good luck.

[Mama Dragon]

Originally Posted by rayo de sol

I did! I've read every single word of this entire thread, and I thought carefully about the whole situation before responding. It kind of hurts my feelings that you have responded to my ideas in such a snarky, dismissive manner. I thought that since I have been where your daughter is now maybe my insights could be of some help. I wasn't trying to imply that you're not being compassionate at all, but the way I see it, there's always room for more compassion towards people.

I am sorry I misunderstood your post then too. They way I read it I didn't see any "more" compassion, just that I wasn't showing any. I apologise.

There are other things that have happened in our lives, particularly in the past 5 years, that would make more sense for her needing counseling. The only grief she feels about our past with her bio dad is that he doesn't care enough to look for her, but we discuss that part of it. She doesn't remember the fight. I'm not dismissing anything, on the contrary, I'm digging through my brain trying to find any reasons I hadn't thought of previously for this anger. Frankly, after her blow up last night, I'm inclined to think she's just a selfish person and just throws a fit when she doesn't get what she wants, figuring I'll give in eventually. Not that I think that, but it's crossed my mind.

I think I've taken what I can from this thread, I really appreciate the advice and insight and other views I've gotten. I'll be working hard this week to find something she can get started on that will resolve her issues and quit this destructive behavior.

[Mama Dragon]

Originally Posted by magster

Maybe I remember this wrong (i.e it happened to the DD of another poster, not the OP), but wasn't it your daughter who last year went to live in another state with friends of yours and the husband in that household was arrested while in company of your DD and there was a CPS inqueiry before you got her back home?

If so, that incident alone would warrant tons of counseling, I think. If I confuse you woth another poster, please ignore.

In either case, good luck.

Yes it was me, and no, she doesn't need counseling for it. She spoke to a couple people and other then being bewildered that police officers can be that stupid, she's fine. She was a lot worse before she went to live with them and been much better since she came back. I can't give any details to "prove" because the case is still open and lawsuits being filed, but trust me that it is NOT an issue for her. CPS never did get involved. They called and were only that involved because they wanted to make sure we weren't imaginary people and she did actually go home.

[dharmamama]

Originally Posted by Synthea™

I'm digging through my brain trying to find any reasons I hadn't thought of previously for this anger.

I don't think you need to be able to identify the source of the anger, and I don't think your daughter does either, to benefit from counseling.

If you ask my daughter why she is so angry, I doubt that she would say, "Because I have HIV and my parents died and I got sent to an orphanage and my siblings are all together but I am not with them ...", and I don't think she would even know that those things make her angry. I think that's where a counselor can come in handy ... helping kids to identify and label their feelings, ones they don't understand or recognize.

[PikkuMyy]

Originally Posted by dharmamama

I don't think you need to be able to identify the source of the anger, and I don't think your daughter does either, to benefit from counseling.

If you ask my daughter why she is so angry, I doubt that she would say, "Because I have HIV and my parents died and I got sent to an orphanage and my siblings are all together but I am not with them ...", and I don't think she would even know that those things make her angry. I think that's where a counselor can come in handy ... helping kids to identify and label their feelings, ones they don't understand or recognize.

I think this is a very good point. The anger is there, whatever the cause, and your daughter obviously needs help in identifying it and addressing it in appropriate ways. She isn't able to do this on her own, and since it's not working with you, that's the time to find someone who could help.

Originally Posted by Synthea™

Yes it was me, and no, she doesn't need counseling for it. She spoke to a couple people and other then being bewildered that police officers can be that stupid, she's fine.

Sorry to be argumentative, but she's not fine. If she was fine, you wouldn't be posting that you wanted to bang your head into a wall. She's flying into rages out of the blue that result in aggression and violence. And I think that it's rather presumptive of you to decide that she doesn't need counseling for it.

It's likely that her anger isn't resulting from one of these specific situations, but from a buildup of emotional reactions to a variety of situations that she is not yet mature enough to identify and deal with.

[Mama Dragon]

Originally Posted by PikkuMyy

I think this is a very good point. The anger is there, whatever the cause, and your daughter obviously needs help in identifying it and addressing it in appropriate ways. She isn't able to do this on her own, and since it's not working with you, that's the time to find someone who could help.

Sorry to be argumentative, but she's not fine. If she was fine, you wouldn't be posting that you wanted to bang your head into a wall. She's flying into rages out of the blue that result in aggression and violence. And I think that it's rather presumptive of you to decide that she doesn't need counseling for it.

It's likely that her anger isn't resulting from one of these specific situations, but from a buildup of emotional reactions to a variety of situations that she is not yet mature enough to identify and deal with.

The counselors she spoke to right after she came home said she didn't need any counseling for it. When I said she's fine, I meant to type, she's not been negatively effected by that. That's why I never brought it up in this thread until another poster mentioned it. It doesn't apply here.

Her anger I'm sure does stem from a build of of various things, but what I think, assume, or dismiss as being or not being the problem doesn't matter. I don't tell her I think those things and what I think doesn't stop me from seeking help for her. I apologize, I got too open with details in this thread, and too open without properly explaining some things, I often unable to type out what I'm trying to say, what I'm thinking. My being presumptuous or not doesn't matter as I'm getting her help as soon as I can find it.

[PikkuMyy]

Originally Posted by Synthea™

The counselors she spoke to right after she came home said she didn't need any counseling for it. When I said she's fine, I meant to type, she's not been negatively effected by that. That's why I never brought it up in this thread until another poster mentioned it. It doesn't apply here.

Her anger I'm sure does stem from a build of of various things, but what I think, assume, or dismiss as being or not being the problem doesn't matter. I don't tell her I think those things and what I think doesn't stop me from seeking help for her. I apologize, I got too open with details in this thread, and too open without properly explaining some things, I often unable to type out what I'm trying to say, what I'm thinking. My being presumptuous or not doesn't matter as I'm getting her help as soon as I can find it.

I totally understand not being able to type what you are thinking. I think we all struggle with that. And of course in this type of situation, it's never possible to include all of the details in the first, or even subsequent posts. That's one of the problems with internet discussions - that people respond to what you say before you've said it all. And of course since it's not in real time, it often takes a while for clarification on both sides.

I think it's wonderful that you have come here to get suggestions and just air what is going on. Certainly you acknowledge that she's not fine or you wouldn't be posting. I know you that, I just wanted to state it clearly. And you've already said that you are going to try to get her help, whatever is going on with her. My point is simply that you can't say what is or isn't contributing to her emotional issues. The counselor might not even be able to get to them. But I think it's a mistake to dismiss incidents like the ones discussed, even if it seems like they aren't affecting her. My mother made a lot of assumptions about what I was feeling, and why, but most of them were wrong. I don't blame her for making them - she had to try to find a reason.

Even in counseling, the root of her issues may not come to light. But if the counselor is good, he/she should be able to give her tools to deal with how she is feeling in a more productive way, even if the source of them is not dealt with until she is older.

I was in therapy as a 17 yo for a variety of depression/anger issues. I had the urge to do some of the things your daughter does, but I controlled it. Instead of smashing the wall, I threw socks, or turned up my music really loud. So it didn't seem as urgent to my mother, as it does to you. The therapy really helped, mostly I think, because the personality of the therapist really went well with mine, and I was able to listen to her thoughts and suggestions with a totally open mind, even if they weren't always right. I think I avoided getting into serious self-destructive behavior because of it. (I engaged in some, but not too much.)

However, the therapist never found out what the cause of my issues were because I didn't even understand them myself. Now I happened to be raised in a cult which caused a huge variety of issues as the cult was misogynistic, brainwashy (in a always-be-happy, don't discuss anything negative way) very controlling, secretive, homophobic, etc. And I didn't realize that most of the problems with my mother (which is what started the counseling) were reflections of what the cult had done to her, and to me. It was only about 6 years ago that I was able to address those issues with myself and with my mother.

Certainly your life is different than this. But my point is just that even if you can't figure out what is going on with her, therapy can still really help. I am eternally thankful for the time I had with my therapist, even though it was so many years later that I "solved" the issues.

[purslaine]

You either do not see the need for, or are unwilling to arrange counselling at the moment - no flames from me - you ARE the mother.

First off, I would remove the computer (which, yes, you did mention - I am merely seconding the fact I think it is a good idea). Both blow-ups in this thread seemed centerred around computer use.
Not only do I suggest it as a natural consequence to her behaviour, but some children cannot handle "screens" well - I need to look it up but I think excess screen use is associated with increased amounts of inappropriate behaviour .

Without question, she is angry and trying to get your attention over something. She has aimed her anger, twice, at things she know will really upset you. She did not aim her anger at the beloved computer or her stuff, after all.

Is it possible she has allergies or something medical that is upsetting her already sensitive balance? Do you think a visit to a naturopath or homeopath is in order - we gave my cranky nephew (not the same thing, I know!!) pulsatilla and he cheered right up. Naturopathy and Homeopathy do treat the whole person.

Is there anything she wants to take that will help her feel self-empowered, give her a break from the house, and re-direct her energy? I am thinking martial arts - but art, horseback riding, ect...whatever.....

Give her a beautiful jornal to write down her thoughts - journalling helps many people.

Hugs and more hugs....

Keep us posted!

Kathy

[Susie1]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

excess screen use is associated with increased amounts of inappropriate behaviour .Kathy

I have never heard this before. If using the computer is what she most enjoys, why take it from her? Perhaps it is the focus of the power struggle, which is why it seems the computer has some sort of power. It really is not about the computer. It is about the prohibition and control over what this person wants to do with her time. I would be enraged as well, if someone were to take something of value away from me; whether I am a child, adolescent or adult. Where is the respect for her in this scenario of withholding computer priveleges? I don't get how the computer carries so much weight.

[mammastar2]

I have been following this with interest, but hadn't thought of anything I could really contribute.

The comments above about not necessarily needing to identify the source of the anger are right on point, though. You may want to look for a counsellor with a "cognitive" perspective - their focus as I understand it is more on identifying and dealing with whatever one's triggers are in the moment, learning to react differently to triggers, and shifting behaviors: not so key to dig up and re-hash this or that thing in the past, more about changing patterns in the present. That might appeal to both you and your daughter.

[Thao]

Originally Posted by Susie1

I have never heard this before. If using the computer is what she most enjoys, why take it from her? Perhaps it is the focus of the power struggle, which is why it seems the computer has some sort of power. It really is not about the computer. It is about the prohibition and control over what this person wants to do with her time. I would be enraged as well, if someone were to take something of value away from me; whether I am a child, adolescent or adult. Where is the respect for her in this scenario of withholding computer priveleges? I don't get how the computer carries so much weight.

Maybe what she is referring to is the fact that screen time is time not spent being active and engaged directly with other humans. In moderation it's fine, but if excessive it can be harmful. I know that in ADD literature it is advised to cut down on screen time and increase social engagement as a way to mitigate the downsides of ADD.

But Synthea hasn't said that her dd uses the computer excessively, so that may not apply. More to the point is the idea of using the computer to motivate a child who is apparently not intrinsically motivated to change her behavior. Of course intrinsic motivation is best and should be encouraged with lots of bonding and loving conversations about feelings and values etc. But I believe that some kids just don't have the intrinsic motivation to deal certain issues, in which case extrinsic motivaton needs to be applied, such as taking away privileges. It seems that sometimes people see this issue only in the extremes and not the shades of grey in between. Like if one takes away a privilege to motivate their child to develop a certain habit/skill, that the child will *forever* only do it when extrinsically motivated (i.e. will never develop an instrinsic motivation) and will *forever* fear their parents (as though one act of removing a privilege will erase all of the bonding and love that the parents and child have created). That doesn't make sense to me at all.

Synthea's dd may just need a parental push to get her over this hurdle, either because she doesn't believe she really can control her temper or because she doesn't have the motivation to. Once she has passed the hurdle and seen how much smoother and happier life is without the drama of meltdowns, the hope is that this experience will become the intrinsic motivation for her to continue controlling her temper in the future.

[Muaile]

Originally Posted by Susie1

I have never heard this before. If using the computer is what she most enjoys, why take it from her? Perhaps it is the focus of the power struggle, which is why it seems the computer has some sort of power. It really is not about the computer. It is about the prohibition and control over what this person wants to do with her time. I would be enraged as well, if someone were to take something of value away from me; whether I am a child, adolescent or adult. Where is the respect for her in this scenario of withholding computer priveleges? I don't get how the computer carries so much weight.

Computer "priveleges" is the key word here. If she is not able to have computer time without getting angry when that is over then I would have to worry whether the computer is messing up her head. My friends boy would get so revved playing online that the day would be hell for her. She restricted him and he is fine. Also what is she doing on the computer that makes her furious to have to finish?

[Muaile]

"But I believe that some kids just don't have the intrinsic motivation to deal certain issues, in which case extrinsic motivaton needs to be applied, such as taking away privileges. It seems that sometimes people see this issue only in the extremes and not the shades of grey in between. Like if one takes away a privilege to motivate their child to develop a certain habit/skill, that the child will *forever* only do it when extrinsically motivated (i.e. will never develop an instrinsic motivation) and will *forever* fear their parents (as though one act of removing a privilege will erase all of the bonding and love that the parents and child have created). That doesn't make sense to me at all." - THAO

HEAR HEAR!

[bigeyes]

Originally Posted by Synthea™

(please don't offer any advice unless you read and understand the whole post. I use sarcasm a lot and I'm very upset right now)

Added: please read through all my posts if you are giving advice, some responses are making is kinda obvious that didn't happen.

...is what I really want to do, just to stop myself from strangling DD. She's got this thing for kicking holes in walls. We had fixed all the holes in our old house and talked to her, and she's been good for a couple months. Today, she got sent to her room, politely because DH and I were arguing (so she wouldn't be right there and it was a nice, "honey, can you go read in your room for a bit", kind of thing), but she wanted to play on the computer right then, so she was mad. There is now a 3 FOOT by 1 FOOT hole in her bedroom wall. I've HAD IT. She doesn't need counseling, she doesn't need a talking to. I'm to the point I think she needs a good butt kicking, but that wouldn't do any good either! I can't think of anything to get her to stop, so I punished her - no more WoW (world of warcraft) ever - period. What good will it do? Nothing of course! Because she doesn't care! ARRRGHHHHH. How do you get a child to care when they don't. The only thing that makes her do good is bribes - allowance, treats, etc. She doesn't care about her brothers, or DH or I, she doesn't care if we need her to help or just want her around (like to go on a walk or watch a movie, even if she gets to run the show), unless she's getting something out of it. She only spontaniously gives a hug if she wants something, she only picks up her room to get out of trouble, or get computer time, she only hugs her brothers if I'm watching and she thinks she'll get "points". I'm just sick of it. We haven't raised her this way. I know too many kids who are like this and I've deliberately tried to raise her not to be so selfish and uncaring, but I failed Its all her, her, her. What can I do, besides counseling, because we don't have the money or insurance anyway for it, even if I was willing to try.

Please read the disclaimer at the beginning of the post before you reply, if you do. And please understand that I posted such a disclaimer because I way too often see posts where it is obvious that the poster did not read the whole original post, not because I'm being a bitch.

I would like to know if anything has worked. My dd doesnt' care about anything. she throws trash, books, clothes, whatever on the floor, doesn't take care of anything, cd players get stepped on, cds get scratched and broken, all of her clothes have stains, and I have finally washed my hands of her room. From now on I just shut the door, because I shouldn't have to keep pointing out each individual piece of trash, clothing or paper on her floor.

She isn't openly hostile, but rather she tells us what we want to hear then goes right on doing what she was doing before. She is sullen, argumentative, and dishonest. She doesn't throw things or break things in anger, but there is this overall feeling that she thinks she should be in charge and we all work for her.

I'm at my wit's end. One kid does well in school and rarely has trouble understanding what is expected of him. The other does poorly despite extra attention and extra classes, and can't seem to grasp the simplest of ideas.
I keep reading on ADD, but she's not hyper at all.

I am intrigued by your question about just not caring, because that is the one I'm struggling with.

Please tell me if you've made any progress.

8(

[Mama Dragon]

Cutting the computer time down to 2-30 minute sessions a day has helped immensely. Threating to hang her in the garage by the foot she kicks the wall with helped one time too She knew I was kidding and we both laughed and it dissolved the anger so she could talk....sometimes things like that work, sometimes not. Nothing bad since she threw the chair. I've been constantly talked to her about treating people and things how she wants to be treated ("how'd you like it if the wall kicked back?") and that gets mostly rolled eyes but I think it makes her think too. She destroys her room too, her stuff, and she's thrown out at least half of what was left from her last huge wing ding (it's been a while)....she doens't get to keep or replace what she destroys. I can't buy her new clothes, and she sure can't afford it, so if she destroys her clothes, she's going to eventually be going around naked.

Not much help I think, if I think of anything else I'll post again. I hope you and your teen can work things out.

[bigeyes]

I wish

if only she was a teen! She's 9, but early puberty runs in her family and she acts like a 13 year old without the minor leaps in maturity or intellect.

I think it's harder for me to deal with because she is so much a little girl, but she's got hormonal issues and her emotions and physical self do not match her mental capacity.

it's good to know something is working with your teen. I think the most important thing I have to do is try not to get mad, stay calm and reasonable. Easier said than done, though.
8)

[pranamama]

I think it sounds like huge changes have happened.