Regret to say "Brat"

[transformed]

I regret to say the word, but latley I have really been resenting the way my son has been acting. He has been a total brat, and I don't know how to handle it. I was spanked as a child and I dont have anything to replace it with, except time out which I dont like because its me fighting with him for 45 minutes to stay in time out, and then forcing an apology, and then everything is ok.

My 3 1/2 year old son walks up to his 15 month old sister, and pushes her, kicks her, hits her, and all this just for fun....when she isnt bothering anyone, she isnt looking at him, or playing with a toy he wants, etc. This happens about 15 times a day.

Also a common occurence in our home is if we say no to him he calls us idiots over and over and over again, throws stuff at us, punches us, etc. He throws things at me and hits me for fun too. no reason.

I am seeing 45 out of 60 minutes him acting out of control and crazy.

I used nonviolence for a very long time with no result, and now I am seriously ready to smack his bottom! I dont know what else to do! I obviously NEED to respond to these things, I cant let him show his sister that its ok for him to violate her.

What would you do?

I need tools for my toolbox.

Jenny

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I would say that, first of all – I can’t imagine a parent hitting a child and feeling good about it. I can imagine a parent considering it and even doing it but I just don’t think it’s possible to feel okay with it without some major cognitive dissonance happening.

I also think that 45 minutes fighting over a time-out followed by a forced apology followed by this same behavior shortly after isn’t working either, yk?

When DC was a little younger and going through a hard time I would try to set her up for success for a few days. This was a really helpful way of thinking about things because – it worked – and it wasn’t like I had to imagine doing that level or work or putting that much energy into things indefinitely.

It would look like a few days where you set yourself and your family up for success. Find a time when you can do this – where there’s not too much stress and you have some “extra” time to focus.

During this time, intervene before DC is about to hit DC. Jump in there and ask him if he would like to play a game all three of you or if he’d like you to read a book or something. If you anticpate him being really disappointed by a no response, prep him first. Say something like, “we’re going to the store and can only buy the things we need for dinner – no treats and no extras…”

If he’s like my DC, after a few days of feeling like a functioning member of the family, he’ll just start to participate that way.

Or not, it didn’t always work. : - ) Good luck!!

[Needle in the Hay]

The thing is, regardless of anyone's views on spanking, it simply won't improve his behavior and as you've seen, the force time outs aren't working either. I hope you will read the book "The Explosive Child" by Ross Greene (i think I've got the name right). I think you would really find it useful and it could save your whole family (especially your DS) years of pain. I would recommend going out and getting it today.

One of the first things the book tells you is that it's not your fault and it's not your child's fault. He is not a brat and he wants to do well but sometimes he can't. The books gives you a plan (that is definitely GD) to help him do better, figure out what to work on and what to let go for awhile (these kids are very easily frustrated so it's probably not worth trying to work on everything at once).

Really I can't recommend this book enough.

[transformed]

So what would an APer do at the actual time of conflict when the 3 year old hits the 15 month old? Just ignore it?

Jenny

[transformed]

Originally Posted by IdentityCrisisMama

I would say that, first of all – I can’t imagine a parent hitting a child and feeling good about it. I can imagine a parent considering it and even doing it but I just don’t think it’s possible to feel okay with it without some major cognitive dissonance happening.

It does happen, most people don't feel bad about it because they perieve it differently than you do-they percive it as a positive way to parent their children. One of my biggest struggles is with my husband, who up until now has been respecting my non violence stance, but at this point-he blames my parenting for our sons behavior and is about to institute spanking as a regular form of discipline. I cant say I blame him, I think mabye my AP skills are to blame for the issues too! Because I dont really do alot of punishing, and my son thinks he can do whatever he wants., He is running the house.

Obviously I dont feel good about spanking, or I wouldnt be here-but I am not finding any information that wil help me protect my dd on gentle discipline sites. I can't always be right in the middle of them.

Jenny

[Needle in the Hay]

Originally Posted by jenniferlearnest

So what would an APer do at the actual time of conflict when the 3 year old hits the 15 month old? Just ignore it?

Jenny

I'm not sure whose post you are replying to. If it's to mine, then the answer is no, it's not about ignoring it. It's about finding solutions that work rather than punishment that doesn't work (it's not about right or wrong or being AP-- the punishment isn't effective and never will be for some children). It's not going to help anyone if your DS keeps hitting his sister and he keeps getting punished for it. It's just a bad situation for everyone. The goal is to help your DS stop the hitting. Same with calling you "idiots". He needs help finding better ways to express his frustration.

If this was in reply to IDCrisisMama, it didn't sound to me like she was advising you to ignore it, but to try to prevent it whenever you can.

[transformed]

I agree that it needs to be prevented, but what do you do during the actual situation? Obviously even if I am doing my best to prevent it, there will still be situations when hitting happens, etc.....so what do you DO? I need someone to "put some verbs in their sentances." (As Dr Phil would say.) :-)

Jenny

PS-I have reserved that explosive child book and I think it is going to have all my answers! But I need some info in the meantime because someone has it checked out!

[mommy2abigail]

Oh mama, it sounds like you are having such a hard time. I agree that spanking will not help the situation. On the most basic level, you are hitting to teach not to hit. It doesn't make any sense. I am finding that my now 2 yo dd is getting more and more physical with the baby (11 months) that I babysit. She's been so sweet and gentle and kind that this kind of physical behaviour is totally new to me. After a few days of really observing and trying to see things from her POV, I realized it had a lot to do with the baby's newfound mobility. She gets into everything of dd's and dd doesn't like it. With some creative room reorganizing and toy distributing, I have been able to prevent ALOT of the incidents. Of course she still at times gets frustrated, but when she is less than gentle, would certainly never hit her to 'learn to be gentle'. Here's what I do:
DD hits/pushes M (M is not crying)
Me: Abby use gentle hands with M. Show me your gentle hands. (she does) Abby, is there something you need help with? (wants M away from her toy) Ask mama, and I will help you. (I move M closer to me or give her a different toy, ect)

End of story.

DD hits/pushes M (M is crying)
Me: Oh no, M is crying! (Hold and comfort M for a while until she is calm) When M is crying, she is telling you to stop! That hurts her. Abby, use your gentle hands with M. Show me your gentle hands. (she does) How can we help M feel better? (She will usually bring M a toy) Do you want me to move M over here?

End of story.

Ok, you get it. If dd is refusing to be gentle (hasn't happened yet!) I would simply move M close to me, and let Abby know that when she's ready to be gentle I'll let M play near her again. I also allow dd to assert herself by saying STOP! to adults, kids, even M, if she wants personal space, ect. And in return, I am teaching her to recognize when other children are saying stop! to her, even if it's by crying, moving away, ect. I want her to be able to see another persons reaction and chose for herself to change her behavior. I also keep in mind that little kids are just not able to empathize well at all. So while she may be gentle now and again, and be totally sweet, I am very aware that she could just asa easily hurt M. I dont see it as she is being violent or bratty or vindictive. Just that she is being a toddler. It helps to assign positive intent to your 3 yo. The more you view him as bratty the more you will see every action as being such. If you see his aggressiveness as a sign of something else, like neediness or frustration, or simply a lack of impulse control, it will help you deal with it more effectively. You want (I am assuming here) you child to be kind because it's the right thing to do, and not because he's been scared or bribed into it right? You want him to see another child's reaction (crying) and recognize it as pain or fear and help him or her out, right?
And it's so hard having a partner who is pushing spanking, when you are trying to find a better solution. Especially since you are at the end of your rope. I know some mama's whose dh's want to spank have devised a ladder system, where spanking is the very last resort. You have say, 10 steps that you must try before you resort to hitting. Usually the matter will be solved way before you get to the last rung. This is not to say I in any way shape or form support spanking, but I know that when your dh wants to do it, it's much more effective to give him some concrete ways to deal with behaviour issues than to just say, dont spank, yk? I really think you and dh should sit down (at a non-conflict time) and decide on 10 alternatives to spanking together. (There is a sticky at the top of this page for some suggestions, plus I am sure you'll get some here if you want more) And be consistent. EVERY TIME ds is being agressive, you deal with it in the same way. And I would also try to spend some good time with just ds. Maybe he just wants some time with out his little sister. Do something to reconnect with him, so you can kind of change your view of him. And likewise, as dd gets older, do the same with her. Maybe for 2 hours, dh can take ds and you take dd? Or vice versa? Try for 2x a week. Maybe even once with mama, and once with dada. That way he gets some one on one time with the two people he loves the most. And is he verbal? Have you asked him (during a non-confrontational time) why he is so rough? Or what he needs?Or how you can help him? He may or may not be able to answer, but you can try. Ok, this has been long winded, hopefully it will be of some help to you.

[Magella]

I would recommend letting go (at least for now) of the idea that your son is hitting his sister "just for fun," and instead take a step back (figuratively) to observe what is going on. Assume that there is some other reason why he's doing this, that he wants to do well and doesn't really enjoy all this conflict, and that you will find other ways for him to express/accomplish whatever it is he's trying to express/accomplish. Take notes, if need be: when it happened, what happened before, what happened after. I second the recommendation for The Explosive Child-this is a great book with not only a great explanation of the various reasons children behave this way but also with a very practical and proactive approach.

Also, how's his sleep? For some kids behavior like this is the result of being short on sleep. And for some kids this is the result of food allergies.

As to what to do in the moment, I have found that it's very helpful to be paying close attention so that at the first sign (and as you observe you'll begin to see the early signs) I can intervene. If my child has already hit/is hitting, I have found it most effective to intervene to stop it and say something like "whoa, what's up?" and maybe my child will tell me why he hit or maybe not. At that point I can say "I need us all to be safe, I want you to be gentle." If I know why it has happened I can say "You felt/wanted.....let's see if we can work this out another way..." My goal is to model for my child better communication and problem solving skills and to give my child information about how others feel about her actions, so that she can learn these skills herself.



Another great book is called Raising A Thinking Child by Myrna Shure, which addresses ways of helping preschoolers and young children learn the skills of communication, perspective-taking, and problem solving.

[chfriend]

I don't have a lot of time to post these days, but I did want to respond to your "do I ignore it" question....No, when I'm acting the way I prefer, I pull them both onto my lap and snuggle them, sometimes saying something like, "Oh man, y'all are having a hard time."

Maybe you could try that?

ETA: I'm guessing the 15 month old just got mobile and is at him and his stuff all the time. 3.5 year olds are usually pre-sharing, so that stuff bugs the stuffing out of them.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Originally Posted by jenniferlearnest

It does happen, most people don't feel bad about it because they perieve it differently than you do-they percive it as a positive way to parent their children.

Yea, I know but I still think there is a thing going on with the though process there that’s “off”. The fact that someone can know that modeling is one of the most important, effective and inescapable discipline tools and then hit a child to teach them that hitting is wrong seems like a form of cognitive dissonance to me.

It’s not at all that I think that people who consider hitting are bad people…or even that people who actually do are bad people. I just feel that they’ve rationalized it. People (myself included) rationalize things all the time. What I said is not a dig on people who do it as much as a suggestion on ways to encourage your DH to get out of that mental mode.

Originally Posted by jenniferlearnest

One of my biggest struggles is with my husband, who up until now has been respecting my non violence stance, but at this point-he blames my parenting for our sons behavior and is about to institute spanking as a regular form of discipline

My DH would have been a hitter had I not been 100% against it. He just wouldn’t have though things out and did what his parents did. One thing that helped us was that I went through the whole anti-hitting argument with him a few times. We kind of debated it in terms of a social issue rather than in terms of our child’s behavior, yk?

When it came to our child, we talked about the many, many things that we both could be doing to better discipline her. Any kind of radical thing like punishment, time outs or whatever were always left as last resorts. We never got there. For us, the solutions were always in the little things like greater supervision, reasonable expectations, more attention, a routine that fit DC’s needs, sleep, food, exercise.

Originally Posted by jenniferlearnest

Obviously I dont feel good about spanking, or I wouldnt be here-but I am not finding any information that wil help me protect my dd on gentle discipline sites. I can't always be right in the middle of them.

Can you be there more for a few days?

I don’t have two kids so I can’t really talk about the issue of siblings that much. I do have lots of friends with more than one child though and I know it can be difficult in some ways.

Does your son have a space of his own for his own toys? Can you think of any other reasons why your son is hitting other than for fun?

I don’t know if this is a good idea or not but maybe when you have to leave the room give your son the option of coming with you or you bringing your DD. Maybe in an unshaming way you could explain to your son that it’s not a good idea for the two kids to be alone right now.

Something like, “I really feel like I need to be with you when you two play together to make sure no one gets hurt. I need to go in the kitchen. Would you like to come with me or would you like me to bring DD?”

[bec]

I have to say, that I have been having really good results with time in. I am using this, primarily, with my 3 year old (only a few months younger than your son). When she is getting out of control, and either aggressive or just very physical with either her older or younger sister (ages 6 and 15 months), I will first, make sure the injured party is all right, and then I'll sit with my 3 year old (or she'll just spend time with me, if I am cooking or something). The kids are separated a little bit, the behavior interupted, and my 3 year old has a chance to reconnect, calm down, and get her bearings straight.

I understand how difficult it can be when you have more than one kid. And, at least in our house, it seems to be at the worst when I'm trying to do something (cook, clean, take a break).

I would say that the time outs aren't working for you, spanking for aggression is only going to send very confusing messages, so you need to find something else to try. I would bet that he is asking for attention, but not able to articulate it.

[mom22girls]

Two things come to mind when reading your original post, one is that maybe your 3.5 yo needs more of your time. What is he usually doing when he hits 15 mo? Also, when my girls (one/the other/both) get into it, I pretend I'm my grandmother and go with the "idle hands are work for the devil" and I give them a job to do (usually this is fun, but it can be mundane for me like sorting laundry, I also give out babywipes or swiffer cloths and let them "dust" or wash the fridge). It's kinda like Bec said about time in. Your 15 mo may be too young, but she can watch - but it's important to keep her OUT of what your son is doing. This may also jibe with your DH wanting to use "punishment" while we may see it as re-directing (but it is important that the parent participate in the "job" if need be).

The other thing: What is ds's diet like? While my girls aren't hitters, their cousins are - and even though my SIL "never allows candy" in the house, the juice is flowing (as are things made with white flour). I notice that these guys are really hopped up on the stuff, and you can almost see it happen after their juice and pretzel snack!

Good luck, it's not easy!

[mamaduck]

I think siblings hurting each other is particularly hard to deal with, because our protective instincts kick in toward the baby. I can understand wanting to hit in reaction and desperation.

There are reasons for his hitting, and I would focus on that. Understanding where he is coming from will help to figure out how to prevent it.

At this point, changing tactics without first talking to him will be confusing. I think you need to make a plan, disscuss it with your dh, and then sit down for a family meeting with your son to talk to him about it. He is only 3 -- but that is old enough for a head's up that something is going to change.

This would be my plan, for when he hits, to follow very consistantly:
- First check in on the baby. Ignore your son while you do this, but realize that its good for him to see the process. Check to make sure she is okay, and verbally acknowlege that being hit is upsetting and painful. Snuggle her for a minute.
- Turn to your son and say, "Hitting is never okay. We do not hit in our family. You have lots of good words. I expect you to use them."
- Sit him down and ask him what made him so mad. If he can tell you, then hear him out while he vents. Don't try to argue with him or tell him that he is wrong to be mad. Just listen. Validate that he was really angry or frustrated, or whatever, and then say, "But hitting is not okay. What can you do instead when you get mad?" Usually, you and he are going to come up with something like, "Tell her that I am angry." Or "Tell mommy that I need help." Or "Get mommy and ask for a hug." Depending on how verbal and reasonable he's capable of being.
- Ask him to practise using his words. Actually role play the scenerio with him. This is important. Its like a "do-over" and it helps him learn and be comfortable with handling himself differently.
- Ask him to check in with the baby (or whoever he hit.) "Chekcing in" does not necessarily mean apologizing. He might just go up, pat her on the back and ask, "Are you okay?" But sometimes it will mean that he chooses to say sorry. Just in some way or another, he needs to acknowlege her pain. You may need to give him a few choices about how to check in, the first few times.

Thats it. That is what we did with our children at this age, and we were very consistant about it. It took a lot of time, but paid off after only a few days of doing it consistantly.

I do want to say that while this is going on, its very important to be tolerant when he yells, screams, or expresses very strong feelings. If he is being verbal and not hitting -- this is progress, and you should view it as a good thing! Even if you are uncomfortable with the words he chooses or the tone of his voice -- listen to what he says, and give him positive feedback for "using his words." If he is shut down for crying, yelling, or talking -- then he will revert to hitting and kicking. He needs to get his feelings out one way or another.

In a year or two, when he is more articulate and has more impulse control, you can start working on teaching him to control his tone and to use nice words.

One last caution re: the name calling.... I would not want to be called an idiot by my child. That would press buttons for me. But I have to ask -- are you calling him a "brat" within his earshot? If so -- then it is just tit-for-tat. If he hears name calling, he is going to mimic it. The same with hitting. If your Dh is hitting him behind your back (you need to find out!) then your son may be imitating when he hits his sister. Or at the very least -- it is feeding into a viscious cycle. I'm not saying that its happening -- just cautioning that its really important not to model hitting and name calling.

You may want to find some books by Faber and Mazlish. They wrote a slew of them -- check the book sticky. Their books are helpful because they feed you language to use with your kids. If nothing else, you can learn a script, right?!

Thats it. Sorry for the novel.