Responsibility, Limits & Consequences for a 5 year old

[IdentityCrisisMama]

I’d like some thoughts on something that’s been going on with our family.

The most recent example was just this evening. We had dinner together (DC didn’t eat much) and then we went to bed after playing a bit. DC usually gets a story from her dad and then snuggles from me until she falls asleep. After a few minutes, DC said she was still hungry and DH got her an apple and we both told her that she should try to eat a better dinner and/or have a snack before she says she’s ready for bed to avoid this. After 10 more minutes, she said she was thirsty. I told her she had to get the water herself but she chose not to. After 10 more minutes, I got tired of reading on my lap top (which is what I normally do while putting DC to bed) and wanted to get up and have DC fall asleep on her own.

Does this all sound like pretty reasonable expectations for a 5 year old? Would you perhaps set an even firmer limit that, if she doesn’t ask for a snack before bed, that’s it for the night…or at least for like an hour after she’s had a chance to eat? I’m actually willing to get her food in the middle of the night on the rare occasion that she wakes up hungry because the same thing happens to me but the thing where she says she’s hungry like 20 minutes is driving me a little nutty. Also, would you set some limits on how long you’ll stay with a 5 year old trying to fall asleep?

Would you maybe let her read in bed alone? I’d be happy to do that but I worry that will just push her bed time back further and further and it’s nice that we have some sort of routine lately. Plus, DC is in school so we can’t get too late.

I have more information and situations that are kind of like this – general theme being should I/can I be setting firmer limits and/or consequences for a 5 year old.

Thanks for your help.

[Needle in the Hay]

If your 5 year old is used to you snuggling with her until she falls asleep, then it's completely unreasonable to expect her to fall asleep on her own. You'd have to do something very progressive if you want that to happen without problems. I lie down with my 5 year old until he falls asleep and it's a really nice bonding time, but if it's not working for you, I think Mary Sheedy Kurcinka (sp?) probably addresses that in her book Sleepless in America. She did in the Spirited Child book and it involved a progression to get from lying down with the child until he's alseep to having the child fall asleep on his own.

I know what you mean about the snack thing. Drives me crazy sometimes too. But, the thing is, I never seem to remember to get him a snack before we start reading so he ends up asking for one when we are on what I hoped would be the last book but then he's eating something so I read another book while he does that. I know if I remembered to deal with it earlier, it wouldn't be a problem. I always get a drink ready to put near the bed so I have it ready when I get the inevitable "I'm so thirsty".

It's hard to get them to eat a lot at dinner when they don't have the appetite. Occasionally I will tell him to eat a few bites so he will be able to have a popsicle (homemade) or ice cream after dinner or something. I know I'm not "supposed" to do that and I don't make a habit of it but sometimes he is just so anxious to get back to his DVD or computer game that he takes one bite and says he's done. We definitely do not insist on plate cleaning, just sometimes a couple of bites of this or that (things I know he likes) but most nights he eats just fine. If it meant a mealtime battle for us I wouldn't insist, it's just not worth it.

[mom22girls]

I agree with PP about your dd falling asleep on her own "cold turkey" you'll need to do it gradually - I'm working on it with my 3 yo now. My 5 yo has gone to sleep by herself since she was about 3, but not only did I work on that, but it is part of her personality. She enjoys going to bed, so I don't have the bed time struggles (like the 3yo). Our dinner is at 5:30 or 6, and bed is around 7:30 (bath and books in between), so there's not much time for her to get hungry. If she doesn't eat what I serve - the rule is she can eat something that does not require any work from me, which includes cleaning up - fruit or a cup of yogurt. Then that's it, kitchen closed. If she's thirsty, she helps herself to water (and has also done this in the middle of the night). But again, she is of that kind of disposition.

As for setting limits, I believe that it really depends on the child, and how your family functions. I'm VERY protective of my private time, and gently and firmly have enforced a bedtime routine. (No CIO or anything, just repetitive and gentle). It was easier with dd1 than with dd2 but we're working on it!! Other families are less concerned with how and when their kids fall asleep. It works for them, but wouldn't for me.

At 5, I think it might be a good idea for you and she to talk about bedtime and the routine, so you can get her input and then buy-in. Talk about what happens with eating, and what she can do for herself, also talk about sleep and how important it is to the body and how she feels the next day. She's probably a little young to get the "when I go to sleep later, things don't go my way the next day" thing. Also, perhaps part of the bedtime routine could be that SHE remember to fill up a cup.

For me, 5 is a confusing age, sometimes dd acts so very grown up and responsible, but still does have the occasional 2-year old meltdown! Sometimes it's hard to keep up!!!

Good luck!

[IdentityCrisisMama]

Thanks to you both. I love a place like MDC where I’m not made to feel like a nut for snuggling my 5 year old to sleep.

I will talk to her today – that’s something that has worked well for us for a while but that I sometimes forget. DC can and does occasionally go to sleep by herself kind of willingly (when we have guests and she knows I want to be with them or when I have work for her school to do). It’s a little tricky to have it depend on my mood and how long it takes for DC to fall asleep though, ha? Maybe she’s ready to wean off of it completely…I don’t mind most days though, sigh.

As far as the food thing goes, there most certainly are some things I could be doing to help. I’ve tried to figure out the pre-dinner snack thing but I can’t seem to quite get it to where she’s hungry for dinner but not “starving” before hand. That certainly would help.

My thing with that is that it just frustrates me that she doesn’t eat her dinner and then says she’s hungry less than an hour after. I think I may try a last chance snack, get a water, brush teeth and then read and see if she can deal with that.

Gotta make breakfast…

[chfriend]

Gotta recommend "Sleepless in America." Lots of great ideas. Personally, I wouldn't make food an issue and I wouldn't confound it with trouble falling asleep. Too much of a potential minefield.

I parent my 6 year old to sleep, and will until she asks me to stop.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

5 is still pretty young to get the idea of looking forward and planning for future events. So, its not reasonable for you to expect her to think, "Well, I'm not hungry now, but I will be in 30 minutes but I need to ask for a snack now rather than at bedtime." Its probably up to you to proactively address the problem.

First, see if you can figure out why she didn't eat much dinner -- not hungry, didn't like it, was excited about something else? If she didn't like it, could she get herself a healthy alternative to eat then? This is the routine at our house -- if you don't like dinner, you may get yourself something else but it has to be healthy and you have to eat it at the table with the rest of us. If its just a matter of schedule (its dinner time but she was hungry an hour ago and had a snack, so isn't hungry now but will be in an hour), then you need to build a snack into the bedtime routine. There are lots of good, low mess, low sugar, quick to eat options. Our family does dessert, but I know not everyone is comfortable with that.

In the end, I think its unreasonable to enforce a "no food because its bedtime rule" if the child is genuinely hungry. I might feel differently if it was a clear ploy to not go to bed, but its pretty hard to determine what's really going on and I'd rather error on the side of believing my child. Unless there is truly no more food available for economic reasons, why make a child go to bed hungry? She won't sleep as well and its a pretty arbitrary limit if you think about it. I don't know about you, but I can rarely control when I'm hungry. And you could end up teaching her to stuff herself at meals because you won't give food later, and that's not a healthy pattern to start either. What I have done though, to keep bedtime on track, is to allow a snack but then reduce the number of books I read by 1 or limit to shorter book choices (we typically do 3 before turning the lights out).

And I agree with the PPs who have said that going from snuggling to sleep to alone to sleep cold turkey is a pretty huge expectation and bound to set up you up for a major unpleasant struggle. If you want to do this, you need to approach it gradually. I have a 7 YO DS who I still read to and snuggle to sleep each night and I treasure those times, and its the point in the day when we are most likely to have significant conversations.

[IdentityCrisisMama]

The interesting thing with food is that I get the feeling over the years that DC sometimes eats when she’s bored. I kind of feel like this is what’s going on with the food at bed time. Like I said in my OP, I have no problem getting DC food in the middle of the night – and I do. She has phases where she’s hungry a lot and often in the night. I do too. I get that. But this thing lately doesn’t seem like that. For instance, last night she said she was thirsty but didn’t get up to get water herself. Sometimes, she’ll ask for food and not even eat it. This is the crazy making part and why I’m here asking what kind of boundaries are appropriate for a 5 year old.

Part of this is the whole thing about 5 (5 and a half actually). It is true that these glimpses of the older child in her are making me tempted to maybe expect more out of her. I know I’ve got to find the balance.

Again, we’re not doing any kind of cold turkey with the sleeping alone. Even last night when I was perfectly willing to have DC do it herself and judging by her reaction, I think it would have been an appropriate choice, DH ended up laying with her and falling asleep. Plus, like I said, DC can and does occasionally go to sleep without snuggling all the way to sleep.

I guess I’m looking for a little guidance actually setting up some boundaries rather than encouragement to keep the statuesque. Even though I asked the question, “Should I be setting firmer limits for a 5 year old?” I think I knew the answer – that, yes, DC is ready and capable of some more responsibility when it comes to certain things.

I like the idea of getting DC involved in getting set up for bed – like getting a cup of water together. Maybe we’ll start drinking milk again, which was something that used to satisfy her. Part of me also wonders if nursing to bed (she stopped in toddlerhood) kind of created a situation where she associates a full belly with falling asleep (I don’t mean this as a negative thing at all!!). This would explain why she often wants something RIGHT before falling asleep...although it woudn't explain why she sometimes asks and doesn't even eat it.

I also know the feeling I’m having right now and do recognize it and am aware of what’s also going on. Over the years when DC started to show signs of new developmental abilities, I often was frustrated because I wanted her to be all the way there. It’s like I get excited for this new stage that I know is coming and get frustrated.