Playgroups/playgrounds and disciplining other people's kids

[Awaken]

I've been wondering this for a while and just now getting to post.

The situation is, we often go to community playgroups, or parks, where we don't necessarily know everyone and the other parents don't necessarily parent the way I do. They let their kids hit, grab toys, and generally act aggressive while they are off talking to the other parents, relaxing, or on their cell phones. I stay within eyesight of my kids all the time (and truthfully the 4 yr old always 'needs help' so he plays near me anyway, even if I TRIED to go sit on a bench somewhere!) If they hit, grab, etc I stop them and deal with it appropriately (ie, leave if they won't stop, or redirect them elsewhere, etc)

Specific instances that happened recently that had me very puzzled as to what to do-

a nanny who takes care of several kids and barely pays attention to them was at the same playground. A approx. 2 yr old took my son's bubbles (which was fine for him to share, we didn't mind!) But then it was time for us to leave, and my ds didn't want to leave without his bubbles and have the other kid keep them. But the 2 yr old would not let them go, no matter how I coerced or talked sweetly or said, "I'm so sorry but we have to leave now so we need our bubbles back." The nanny was on her cell phone and not helping at all. So we really needed to get home, and I had to basically have a wrestling match with a toddler to get the bubbles back,with him crying and I felt so horrible and small being mean to a toddler!

Another time we were at a community playgroup (actually this happened twice lately) and a younger kid came up and grabbed the toys from my kids very agressively, and my 4 yr old got very upset, and even though I am trying to teach him to speak up for himself, it didn't matter what I or my son said to the younger kid, they continued to grab things and the parents were no where around and the kid didn't respond to anything I said as far as taking turns, so he ended up just taking it.

I do want to be a good example of assertiveness for my kids (all of us are pretty nonconfrontational so it is hard for us), but how do I do that- and how much authority do I have over someone else's child. I don't think I should just let kids walk all over mine, but I also don't think it's right for me to have to grab toys back from little kids since that's exactly what I'm telling them not to do!

This isn't really a problem in playgroups where we know each other well- we parent similarly and have an understanding that we can say 'no pushing' or 'let's share' or whatever if the other parent doesn't see it happening, and we all watch our kids and are trying to teach them politeness- but obviously not everyone has the same views.

So- any comments?

[CarrieMF]

In both of those situations I would not have let them just take the items from my child. The 2yo is a bit different because he was 2, but I still wouldn't have let him just take them away. I would have told him he could play with the bubbles with my child, even if I had to hold them and let them take turns blowing.

With the other situation, why did you let the kid just take your son's toys? Ideally you wouldn't just grab them back becuase you don't want them to do that but in circumstances like this IMO take them back and then tell the child if they want to play with them they have to ask first. Then if they ask you(or your ds) can let them play with them. If they keep grabbing them then no they can't play with them until they start to ask. By letting the child keep the toys you just showed your son that it's okay for others to take what they want without asking, but also if that child is at the playground again that child will also think it's fine to just grab your son's toys and play with them.

As for how much you can take over regarding other's kids. If their parents/caregivers are not watching or coming to help the situation I'll step in as much as is needed.

We were at a playground a couple of years ago. There were older kids(9-10) there and no adults. It was a campground and you could tell they were all camping together, there was about 7 or 8 of them. One of the boys was in a small tunnel and a couple of the other kids started throwing the rocks into the tunnel and hitting him. He asked them to stop a couple of times and they wouldn't. Then one of them threw some rocks that hurt the boy. He started crying and they kept doing it. So I stepped in and told them that becuase he had asked them to stop and that they had now hurt him that they needed to stop, plus there were little(2 & 3yo) kids there that they could be hitting too. I got some of those looks kids that age can give adults when they think they don't need to listen so I then told them that if they didn't stop then I was going to escort them all back to their campgrounds and have a talk with their parents. They stopped and then 10min later they all left.

[katja]

I would avoid wrestling with other people's children at all costs.

In the first scenario, I would have just gone up to the nanny and said, "Excuse me, we're having a hard time getting our bubbles back and we need to get going."
As for the second, are you saying that there were children younger than your own (4) all alone at the park? If that were truly the case, I would call the cops.

I would not let kids at the park just keep my kids' toys. It isn't really fair to them.

[mommy68]

I wouldn't care if the nanny or mother was on their cell phone or engaged in a conversation with someone else. I'd walk up and ask them to politely have their child to give the item back to your child. It's simply not right for them to keep it or for the parents to ignore them like that.

I've learned over the years to never approach someone else's child, no matter what it is about. The parents need to be approached first.

[zipworth]

When I am at a playground, I cannot keep my big 'ol daycare teacher mouth shut if I see violence. If a child is being victimized, I will yell loudly, 'Hey! No hitting!' I only do this if the parent of the hitting child is off in la-la land, however. They usually will come running over and intervene. I had to do this once when a little boy flew into a rage and started beating a smaller boy with his fists. They were up high on a piece of playground equipment and the smaller boys mother was looking around frantically for the parent of the hitting boy. When I yelled 'no hitting!' It startled the hitting boy, and his mother ran over and stopped him and removed him for a temporary 'break'.

I would never touch another child on a playground however. I would locate the child's parent, or remove my own child.

[TripMom]

Originally Posted by itsybitsy25

I do want to be a good example of assertiveness for my kids (all of us are pretty nonconfrontational so it is hard for us),

I think you've summed it up here. I don't see this is a discipline issue at all.

Re the 2 year old - the caregiver should have been there to support you -- but you shouldn't feel badly retrieving your things before you have to leave? 2 year olds are . . .well . . . .2. The laws of ownership are lost on them. Your actions were totally appropriate. And the 2 year olds behavior was as well, for that matter.

Re the toy stealing with your 4 year old -- at 4 kids know how to share - but they still don't like it. You need to model conflict resolution skills for your 4 year old. Look kid in the eyes - say kindly but firmly - "No. I am playing with this right now. I will share it with you when I'm done." OR maybe suggest a game they could play together.

I totally don't see discipline as the issue here at all . . .

[jomomma]

I see discipline as the issue.
My daughter is 3.5 and would never think to snatch something from another child. I know all children are different and will test their boundaries in their own way. I also recognize the vital need for them to have room to express their assertiveness -- but there is a difference between being assertive and acting up.
I recently experienced a similar problem at a birthday party. The only child my dd and I knew was the birthday boy himself and the party was hosted at a place where about a million other parties were going on at the same time. My dd was having a hard time of it that day (it was just one of those days when she was needy and clingy). The place was chock full of excited, bounding, shrieking children - all hellbent on having a good time. Unfortunately, there was a considerable mix of ages and my dd, being somewhat cautious at times (the place is full of very large playground equipment and bouncers; think giant, amusement park-sized structures) got jostled around a bit -- totally to be expected under the circumstances -- but of course she got upset. Once a little boy accidentally knelt on her hand (but it wasn't intentional -- the kid was honestly completely unaware -- in that situation, I'm not saying anything) and later a group of kids tired of waiting for her to go down a slide took it upon themselves to climb around her and proceed with their day (again, really no harm nor foul - dd's feelings were hurt because the other kids wouldn't wait - but they had been waiting). As I was consoling her over on the side, however, a mother of one of the invitees came over and said, basically, that she found her son got over things quicker when she didn't coddle him. Those weren't her exact words, but that was definitely the gist of it. Later, when our birthday group was escorted into a separate room to enjoy some pizza and cake, her son (about 6) began yelling at my dd when he thought she took his fork (it wasn't his -- there were a zillion on the table). Then he swiped it from her -- extremely aggressively! -- he actually grabbed her one arm and wrested the fork from the other hand. He left marks on her. I immediately came over and told the kid, in no uncertain terms, that what he did was wrong! Maybe some would call me petulant, but I told him he was very mean and he had no right to do what he did -- there were plenty of other forks. Of course, my 3-year-old was crying. I then told her she didn't have to sit next to him because he couldn't act appropriately and asked her if she'd like to find another seat -- which, of course, she did. This was done all within earshot of the bully in question, who just seemed utterly shocked. My dd sat herself down elsewhere, I got her another fork, she ate her cake and we left. The boy's mother wasn't even in the room at the time and had no idea what went on and I'll admit I didn't even bother saying anything to her, as I knew it would be wasted breath. No one even noticed what happened - the place was so cramped and noisy and just utterly chaotic in general. But this isn't the first time I found myself in a situation where another kid is being rotten (there, I said it) and the parent is either ignorant of the situation or is being less than effective in controlling it. This never happens among kids that we know. My friends come from all walks of life, but all of us realize that parent is a verb, as well as a noun. In general, as the kids get older, we do try and let them work out certain situations on their own - sometimes with a little prompting. But other times, we step right in. No hitting, no yelling, no snatching, no pushing, no teasing allowed. Our kids are usually mindful and considerate - though everyone has their moments. We're just certain to be there when those moments occur. My dd has another group of kids she's friendly with (through activities) whose parents my dh and I don't really know. I guess there is a reason why we're not really "friendly" with them. At birthday parties and the like, these kids do whatever they want, while their parents stand by and socialize. There is the occasional "Jonathan, stop doing that" yelled across the room, backyard, playground, bowling alley, wherever -- but the parent doesn't actually DO anything and the behavior continues, unabated because the kid knows there are no consequences. If you're not going to parent your children, then don't yell at me when I step in to do the job you're not. I'm generally pretty non-confrontational, but if you're kid is pulling another kid's hair on the merry-go-round or pushing a smaller kid as they're trying to climb up a ladder and you're just going to stand on the other side of the park and casually say, "Now Timmy, you know that isn't nice" while Timmy just keeps on pulling and pushing, I'm going to tell Timmy to get down - NOW - and go stand with his mother until he's ready to play nicely.
I realize I'm speaking of intervening or becoming the absentee parent primarily in situations where things have either become physical or another child is potentially in danger, but I feel everyone else's good time shouldn't be ruined because one parent either can't or won't step in when they're supposed to.

[Awaken]

Thanks for the responses. Hmm, maybe 'discipline' is the wrong word. I guess I mean handle confrontations between young children when the other caregiver is not around to help out, or isn't helping out.

Originally Posted by CarrieMF

With the other situation, why did you let the kid just take your son's toys? Ideally you wouldn't just grab them back becuase you don't want them to do that but in circumstances like this IMO take them back and then tell the child if they want to play with them they have to ask first.

I wouldn't say I 'let' other kids take things from my son- but kids just grab things from each other. He is smaller than most 2 yr olds (or 1 yr olds for that matter!) and not very strong or loud so even much younger kids can totally steamroll him in a second even if I'm right there.

I do ask the child to give it back, but we all know how toddlers are- they don't just hand something back when they want it and some strange lady (or even their parents) say to!

Thanks though- I am glad to hear your perspective and that it's not out of line for me to get it back from other kids or step in. I feel uncomfortable doing so but I don't want my son to get walked all over.

Originally Posted by katja

I would avoid wrestling with other people's children at all costs.

As for the second, are you saying that there were children younger than your own (4) all alone at the park? If that were truly the case, I would call the cops.

No, no- it's at playgroups in houses where the parents might be in another room or busy talking and not watching. At the park it was with a nanny who was there but not paying attention. I hate acting like a whining tattler, "your child is grabbing/hitting/etc and please come make them stop!"

Re: the wrestling, I do want to avoid that at all costs! Not only do I feel stupid doing it, some people could get really angry about touching their children. I know I would if someone else did it to mine- BUT that wouldn't come up since I"m there watching them! But little kids don't just hand things back- it usually takes prying their little fingers off of something to get them to give it up!

Jomomma- that sounds very frustrating, and not a fun birthday party experience at all!

Oh well. Just one of those not-so-fun aspects of parenting that we all have to deal with

[srain]

While this won't solve many of your problems, one thing we do to minimize conflict is to never bring toys with us to public areas. It's a recipe for disaster with kids under 6.

I agree with other posters that if a nanny is present, you should ask for them to intercede even if they're talking on their cell phone (during their paid work time). It reduces your own liability!

[marybethorama]

Originally Posted by srain

While this won't solve many of your problems, one thing we do to minimize conflict is to never bring toys with us to public areas. It's a recipe for disaster with kids under 6.

You got that right! I try to keep toys away from the playground. It is so hard.

[mittendrin]

I figure if the caregivers don't care in the first place how the kids act then it's ok for you to step in if they're acting aggressively or are taking stuff away. You won't have to worry about the nanny getting all pissy, obviously her cell is more important.
See it from that point: maybe those poor kids are getting something out of it when you teach them how to share and be nice.