for those who left any religion - Page 4

[Phoenix_Rising]

i grew up in a roman catholic household and went to parochial school for k-12. i was always taught (parents, teachers, church leaders) that one was to love unconditionally and employ "the golden rule" in your life. all of that went down the tubes when i figured out that i was in love with a woman and decided that i was going to be true to myself and my feelings. so essentially everything i had ever been told and taught was null and void because of who i loved. i do know the phrase "love the sinner, hate the sin" but that was definately not my experience. it was very much "hate the sinner and disown". now, 11 years later i still struggle with this, wanting very much to again experience the feeling of community i grew up in and yet being unwilling to lie about my feelings for the woman i love.

[accountclosed3]

susannah:

i'm sorry that you experienced this.

[lilyka]

Originally Posted by ~~Mama2B~~

I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but aside from not being able to logically support my beliefs, one thing that really pushed me away from my religion was the emphasis on feelings. I know a lot of people enjoy that, but for me, I want to know what's expected of me and I want to do it. I want to know the requirements, the punishments, the rewards and to have a book of rules in front of me. Relying on my emotions/feelings/guts/etc. to guide me in making decisions was really tough for me. I don't know if I'm a weirdo or if anyone else feels me on that.

Kristi

I am right there with you.

[Changed]

See, that seems illogical to me. If you're supposed to follow those rules based on no proof and nothing but faith, you must be guided by emotions. Faith is emotional.

[ThomasL]

I left Christianity because I could not possibly believe that only Christians go to heaven and through my own personal journey I have come to the belief that God does not care what religious path anyone chooses.

[ChasingPeace]

It's interesting to me that so many have left Christianity because they didn't believe only Christians go to heaven. I was never taught this as a Roman Catholic and certainly don't believe this as an Episcopalian.

[UnschoolnMa]

Originally Posted by Ravin

I have at times maintained a hardline polytheist stance, but in my heart of hearts still believe there is one big, sexless, genderless, all-powerful God and that the "Gods" are just putting faces on it for human understanding--bit of a Brahmic concept, or Tao, or Baha'i (which is what got 100% last time I did that belief-o-matic quiz, with neo-Pagan knocked down to 3rd or 4th place).

I really understand what you're saying here. This applies to some of the stuff that I've been dealing with in Wicca. I really am not a polytheist, at heart I'm just not. I am comfortable with the Divine having the face or energy of female, male, tree, water, etc. But I do not identify with the multiple, individual deities at all. Magic is another issue for me. It's such a focus of the Wiccan community, IME, and though I believe in magic as a sense of prayer or "will" I don't line up with their approach to it overall.

I really believe all religions have merit/truth to them, and which one you follow is a matter of what is right for you as an individual. I may be in flux again right now, I'm not sure. It's a hard thing to convert. It can involve losing friends, changing social circles, family not understanding, etc.

I understand this as well. My religious practice(s) have made me feel so different from some family and friends. Not that they were mean spirited, but the differences are quite clear sometimes. Many extended family members basically did they eye roll upon any conversation of my not eating meat or practicing the Eight Fold path, etc. And no longer ID'ing as Wiccan when I have for so long in addition to saying that I am exploring the Quaker path will no doubt get me some eye rolling again. I will go where I feel led, and I will worship in a way that feels right regardless, but not having community can be a real downer, ya know?

Lately I've been learning more about Islam, and going back to study the lore to find some better rooting in the path I'm already on.

Wishing you lots of clarity and peace in your search!

[Snowdrift]

I sort of left twice, if that makes sense. I explored a bit because I was unhappy with some of the tight restrictions of community life. Specifically, my marriage prospects were not too good.

But Reform or other branches of Judaism didn't do much for me. They seemed like watered-down Judaism. (Although I now realize that that isn't the case at all, so no offense to Reform/Conservative/Traditional Jews. I just couldn't see the philosophies for what they were at the time.)

I truly left when I found Christ. Becoming a Catholic more or less meant leaving Orthodox Judaism.

Since then, of course, my understanding of both Catholicism and Orthodox Judaism has changed, so it's hard to give my impressions then. Suffice to say, if I had known then what I realize now, I would have run to the Church instead of slowly sauntering.

At the time my problems with Orthodox Judaism were small, personal problems, trials that I would not find to be sufficient reason to leave a faith. It was the overwhelming goodness and love and truth of Christianity that pulled me there, but I was able to feel the love of Christ before I really finished leaving and long before I officially did RCIA and was baptized/confirmed.

Now my understanding is different and if I had been able to understand then the things I understand now, I would have actively left Orthodox Judaism. Specifically, my problems with Orthodox Judaism (and to a lesser extent, Judaism) are of intellectual methodology and the overbearing nature of communal authority. My thoughts intersect at many points with the writings of Israel Shahak. A reference is easier than detailing them here myself.

ETA: Also, see DDDDC. Now how many redneck OJ's do you know? Seriously, aside from the marriage thing, I felt very alien in the OJ community. I mean, they don't hunt! Very few camp. I met none who backpack! Yes, they exist, just far, far from the mainstream. I mean, sure it's possible to be a lefty radical, but I had another cross to bear. (Pun very, very intended.)

[darien]

What an interesting thread.

I was raised veeerry Roman Catholic. One day my 6th grade teacher told us we should be thankful we had been given the "gift of faith." I knew she wasn't talking about me! It took me another decade to "leave," though. I tried to believe, but I just don't. I guess I'm just a "natural atheist."

It's funny-- since I never go to religious events myself, I've been available to do childcare for people who do. I've worked in the nurseries of Catholic, Methodist, Episcopal, Quaker, and Hindu houses of worship. And at a Jewish daycare.

[mamaverdi]

Originally Posted by tie-dyed

Very few camp. I met none who backpack! Yes, they exist, just far, far from the mainstream.

We love camping and backpacking. We haven't been since my youngest was born though. Too much trekking in the hospital.

But maybe we are lefty radicals.

I also have a nose ring.

[~~Mama2B~~]

Originally Posted by Jörð

See, that seems illogical to me. If you're supposed to follow those rules based on no proof and nothing but faith, you must be guided by emotions. Faith is emotional.

How does a belief in something denote being emotional? I'm not saying I don't want to have faith, but I'm saying I don't want to have rely on emotion to make decisions.

I believe that my sacred text is accurate and that there is a G-d. After accepting those two theories, I then want to use logic and reason to decifer the Bible. I can understand and respect other ways of doing things, but for me, believing in a higher power makes logical sense and from my studies, the Bible seems to be accurate. That doesn't mean everyone has to agree, but that's what works for me.

Kristi

[UnschoolnMa]

I like a bit of structure/framework and a bit more of feeling it out and being in prayer & meditation on things. It's a 40/60% thing for me I guess.

[Changed]

I didn't mean to sound like I think it's wrong at all...

It's just that belief in or faith in God isn't proveable. The existance of God is not provable factually. You would have to believe based on how you FEEL about God/ The Bible/ your spiritual needs.

Unless your belief in God doesnt require any faith at all, it's based on feelings and feelings are emotional.

[~~Mama2B~~]

Originally Posted by Jörð

I didn't mean to sound like I think it's wrong at all...

It's just that belief in or faith in God isn't proveable. The existance of God is not provable factually. You would have to believe based on how you FEEL about God/ The Bible/ your spiritual needs.

Unless your belief in God doesnt require any faith at all, it's based on feelings and feelings are emotional.

That's inaccurate. There's no proof of life outside the earth, but plenty of people believe there is. Over the centuries, there was no proof that the world was flat, that the sun revolved around the earth, that germs did not exist, that holding a baby too much would spoil him/her, that women were less intelligent than men, that blacks were less intelligent that whites or that birds could fly because they wer elighter than air. However, people believed these things for years until they were disproven. Emotion had nothing to do with it.

Likewise, there are millions of people who don't believe that CIO, spanking, formula feeding, etc. are not the best for their kids. Is that based on emotion? No. It's based on their understanding of child development, their beliefs about parenting, their sources and their preferences. We disagree. Do we disagree because of how we feel? No. We disagree because of our understanding of child development, our beliefs about parenting, our sources and our preferences.

If you tell your kids that there is a Santa Claus, and on Christmas Eve you put gifts under the tree from Santa why would they not believe it? It has nothing to do with feelings, but relying on a trusted source and choosing to believe any supporting evidence. I choose to believe the Bible is a trusted source and I choose to believe any supporting evidence. It has nothing to do with emotion or feelings.

I don't get an emotional high from being Torah observant, nor am I in love with G-d. There are no emotional controllers in my religious life. You are free to believe what you want, but don't tell me how I feel and what my religious beliefs boil down to. You don't know me. I don't pretend to understand your beliefs, nor have I attempted to discredit you for a lack of a belief in G-d. It's your choice. Please show the rest of us the same courtesy.

Kristi

[jennica]

Originally Posted by ~~Mama2B~~

I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but aside from not being able to logically support my beliefs, one thing that really pushed me away from my religion was the emphasis on feelings. I know a lot of people enjoy that, but for me, I want to know what's expected of me and I want to do it. I want to know the requirements, the punishments, the rewards and to have a book of rules in front of me. Relying on my emotions/feelings/guts/etc. to guide me in making decisions was really tough for me. I don't know if I'm a weirdo or if anyone else feels me on that.

Kristi

This is an interesting view and I can see where your coming from with it, as I used to think this way as well. Here is how I see this currently. The bible is understood differently by different religions, and different individuals. We could argue our views on it all day and never come to any agreement on what exactly it is telling us to do, which is why there are so many different religions. You may think you know, and I may think I know, but those two different views could be totally opposite, yet be coming from the same book. So, if you enjoy having rules, structure, and discipline if you break the rules, and you have chosen to make that rule book the bible, I think that is fine. However, what I no longer think is fine is when an organization, a third party, starts telling the individual how to view the rules, and they start making up even more rules to follow that aren't in the bible, or aren't very clear at all in the bible and are simply their personal interpretation. If this organization or third party begins to punish the individual based on their personal interpretation of the rules then I think they have overstepped their bounds. If God is the rule maker, the discipliner, and the rewarder, and I feel that I know what God wants from me and live my life to follow his rules, I see nothing wrong with that. However, I do think it is wrong for an organization to take it upon themselves to usurp God, and act in his behalf as rule maker, punisher, and rewarder.

Now the obvious comeback to what I just said would be, "well, don't join the organization in the first place if you don't like their rules, their interpretation of the bible, or their punishment system." But, some people are drawn in to an organization that has a lot of structure during vulnerable times in their life. Usually the rewards are awesome, the people are wonderful, and having all the answers to life's mysteries is supremely satisfying. A lot of times, people are not informed how the punishment system works, or even that there is one, until they are already in too deep. Some people, like myself, are born into certain organizations and shown scary images, made to study literature, and generally taught from a very young age that straying away will mean shunning and certain death.

So, it is nice and satisfying when things are black and white. You feel you have all the answers, and you will be rewarded in the end for your hard work. However, not being allowed to ask questions, or change your mind, or see anything in varying shades of gray, seems to eventually take it's toll with most people.

[~~Mama2B~~]

Originally Posted by jennica

This is an interesting view and I can see where your coming from with it, as I used to think this way as well. Here is how I see this currently. The bible is understood differently by different religions, and different individuals. We could argue our views on it all day and never come to any agreement on what exactly it is telling us to do, which is why there are so many different religions. You may think you know, and I may think I know, but those two different views could be totally opposite, yet be coming from the same book. So, if you enjoy having rules, structure, and discipline if you break the rules, and you have chosen to make that rule book the bible, I think that is fine. However, what I no longer think is fine is when an organization, a third party, starts telling the individual how to view the rules, and they start making up even more rules to follow that aren't in the bible, or aren't very clear at all in the bible and are simply their personal interpretation. If this organization or third party begins to punish the individual based on their personal interpretation of the rules then I think they have overstepped their bounds. If God is the rule maker, the discipliner, and the rewarder, and I feel that I know what God wants from me and live my life to follow his rules, I see nothing wrong with that. However, I do think it is wrong for an organization to take it upon themselves to usurp God, and act in his behalf as rule maker, punisher, and rewarder.

Now the obvious comeback to what I just said would be, "well, don't join the organization in the first place if you don't like their rules, their interpretation of the bible, or their punishment system." But, some people are drawn in to an organization that has a lot of structure during vulnerable times in their life. Usually the rewards are awesome, the people are wonderful, and having all the answers to life's mysteries is supremely satisfying. A lot of times, people are not informed how the punishment system works, or even that there is one, until they are already in too deep. Some people, like myself, are born into certain organizations and shown scary images, made to study literature, and generally taught from a very young age that straying away will mean shunning and certain death.

So, it is nice and satisfying when things are black and white. You feel you have all the answers, and you will be rewarded in the end for your hard work. However, not being allowed to ask questions, or change your mind, or see anything in varying shades of gray, seems to eventually take it's toll with most people.

Good point. In my religious circle we argue about which rabbi is better than another and how much say should the rabbis have. In the end DH and I choose who's right from our understanding and make our decisions accordingly. We try to use the "3 Cs:" content, context and continuity when reading the Bible, so we come to some agreement on what the commandments mean. Our views aren't universal, and we're fine with that.

In our circle or friends we all examine the text and the rabbis and the traditions and do things a little differently, but the goal is the same. As long as we all respect each others' right to worship and believe differently we get along just fine.

Fortunately for us, we don't have a "supreme authority" which dictates how we must behave and what we must believe. I know a lot of people like that, but for DH and I we want to be able to interpret on our own without worrying about the Vatican, the board of directors, the convention or the founders. Maybe that sounds contraditctory, as I do want to know what the rules are so that I can just do them, but I want to have the freedom to interpret the rules for myself so that I, in good conscience, can abide by them.

Thanks for bringing this up.

Kristi

[genifer]

Ill say something along these lines. I became a christian in america but only after about 1 or 2 years over there I moved to the UK and there is an element of what you are talking about in American Christianity that just hasnt made it over here and I also wonder about christianity in other parts of the world. In fact I was thinking about the church Im involved in and this isnt an issue really. You arent shunned for questioning. However, I can totally see what you are saying about people not letting you question. And I personally find that frightening. All the different denominations of christianity is what made my head spin after a while. Thats what made me start questioning things. I see a major part of Christianity and Christian fellowship being unity and I see the church as anything but unified. Ive just decided to go a different route. I see certain things as cores to christianity, personally, I focus on those. I can easily leave the church without leaving chrisitanity. As far as the church is concerned its a case of loving them and loathing them at the same time, knowing the faults but loving them anyway.

[christianmomof3]

So Jennica, if you don't mind my asking, it seems that the JWs fear the Lord's return because they think if they don't follow some JW rules, they will be forced to suffer through the great tribulation?
I don't know much about their beliefs, but it does sound like it was rather controlling and frightening to you. Are your parents and in-laws and family all JWs?
I understand how you say you miss the sense of community and a bit about how difficult it is to not be accepted by the people who were once your friends.

As a Jew, I believed that Christians were wrong because I thought they worshipped 3 gods. I also thought they were wrong because they had this whole reward and punishment system thing of be good and you get to go to "heaven" with golden streets and angels and harps and get and do whatever you want, but if you are bad you go to hell and "burn" with a red guy with horns.
To me, it sounded even more unbelievable than Santa Claus.

When a friend of mine shared the gospel with me, she told me that Jesus is God and that He wants to live within us if we only will ask Him to. She asked me to pray this prayer:

Lord Jesus, I am a sinner.
I need You.
Thank You for dying for me.
Lord Jesus forgive me.
Cleanse me from all my sins.
I believe You rose from the dead.
I receive You right now as my Savior and life.
Come into me! Fill me with Your life!
Lord Jesus, I give myself to You for Your purpose.

So, I thought about it and decided that it seemed to me that either Jesus was God or He was not (and I really was more on the not side), and that if I prayed that prayer and He was not God that I was just wasting my breath for a minute or two and it would not make any difference.
So I prayed it.
I really had no idea that it would make any difference at all.
Then she asked me if I would be baptised and for some reason, I said ok, and I was baptised right then in her bathtub with her and her husband praying.
I went home that night thinking that was a strange thing I had just done, but did not think much of it.
But, after that the Lord did indeed live within me.
I had never heard of the sinners prayer.
No one had told me that I might feel different or anything.
I had never heard of "being saved" or "born again".
But, after that, I began to be very happy for no reason at all and contrary to the circumstances I was in and I felt so different that I went out and took a hpt because I knew something was different within me and I thought I might be pregnant. I was not pregnant, but there was a new life within me.
That life is the life of the Lord Himself.
My friend later took me to her church with her and I have since read the Bible and learned a lot about the Lord.
But, what really convinced me was the Lord Himself.
He is real and He lives in me and in all of His regenerated believers.
I have seen other people have the same experience.
It is not something that is taught. It is a real and genuine experience of Christ living within us.
I enjoy Him with the other Christians who I meet with.
I can also enjoy Him with other Christians from other churches or denominations.

Anyway, I think I got sidetracked again.
Sorry.
I just felt to share my experience.
I think it is sad that to many people God is confined within a religion or set of rules and that they see Him as fearful.
I just know He is real and wonderful because I know and experience Him as such.
I don't believe on going solely on emotion.
I believe we need the word (Bible), the Spirit (the Holy Spirit within our human spirit) and the Body (the other believers) to help us to be balanced and make sure that we are really following the Lord and not merely our emotions.

[genifer]

fwiw, Christianmom, I had a very similar experience...

I had never heard of the sinners prayer.
No one had told me that I might feel different or anything.
I had never heard of "being saved" or "born again".
But, after that, I began to be very happy for no reason at all and contrary to the circumstances I was in and I felt so different ...
but there was a new life within me.
That life is the life of the Lord Himself.
My friend later took me to her church with her and I have since read the Bible and learned a lot about the Lord.
But, what really convinced me was the Lord Himself.
...
I have seen other people have the same experience.
It is not something that is taught. It is a real and genuine experience of Christ living within us.
I enjoy Him with the other Christians who I meet with.
I can also enjoy Him with other Christians from other churches or denominations.

I was totally not interested in christianity or religion, very much against it. I did come to a point where I was seeking tho. Also, I was trying to read the bible beforehand and it made no sense to me. After accepting Christ, it made sense. I was hungry to read it. Ive been without churches more often than I had been in them actually (Ive moved alot) and it took a good 6 months before I got invovled in a church.

And I was going to edit my post above to add that altho what I wrote is true in a big way in what I see as american christianity, I know it isnt true of all Christians in america. And I couldnt see it until I left.

And Hey, I know this sounds like an evangelical ho down or like we are 'witnessing'. Im not interested in that really. First of all, its just nice to 'meet' someone (christianmom) who I can relate to faith-wise. Its awsome! Second, I know and understand the reasons people are very much against christianity. I can say that threads like this have opened my eyes and I see you all differently than I did from the other 'confrontations' there have been here regarding our differences. I think I understand and empathise with alot of you more so than I did before. So, whether it matters or not to those of you who have been hurt by the christian church, I just wanted to publicly say Im sorry for the way many of you have been treated by... us. I am very sorry.

[christianmomof3]

Originally Posted by genifer

And Hey, I know this sounds like an evangelical ho down or like we are 'witnessing'. Im not interested in that really. First of all, its just nice to 'meet' someone (christianmom) who I can relate to faith-wise. Its awsome! Second, I know and understand the reasons people are very much against christianity. I can say that threads like this have opened my eyes and I see you all differently than I did from the other 'confrontations' there have been here regarding our differences. I think I understand and empathise with alot of you more so than I did before. So, whether it matters or not to those of you who have been hurt by the christian church, I just wanted to publicly say Im sorry for the way many of you have been treated by... us. I am very sorry.

I agree, I am just sharing my experience, not trying to witness or anything.
I have never been involved in the formal traditional mainstream Christianity and from what it sounds like, I might not have liked it.
When I quit practicing the Jewish religion I was through with religion, through with doing things just because you are supposed to because it is a tradition.
I was through with formal and to me boring "services" where everyone sits and listens to a boring old man talk. I am sorry if that sounds disrespectful, but that is how religion was to me.
I am not involved in a religion now.
I am simply experiencing a relationship with the real and living God. To me, that is what the Bible teaches. That is what it is supposed to be to be a Christian.
I realize some people like the formal services and stuff and that is why they exist I suppose and if you like that sort of thing then I am not trying to put it down. But it is not for me.
To me, to be a Christian means that I have Christ in me as the real peace, hope, faith, comfort, love, patience, kindness, goodness, meekness, self-control, joy, gentleness and everything that I am not naturally.
His love is much higher and better than mine and I can experience His love as I experience Him in me.
It is a living relationship with the God who is love and peace.

Is that so different from what some of the other religions or spiritual experiences that others have?
I don't know.
Anyway, I think that the reason I started this thread was to see why people leave their religions.
And it seems that one big reason is that they do not find reality in them.
I don't think we all need to follow the same path.
I think that there is room for differences among us because we are all different.
I left a religion and I found a living.
I was not even looking for another religion and if I would have, I would not have looked for Christianity for sure since I also thought they were a bunch of brainwashed people who prayed to images of the virgin Mary on toast and things like that. (sorry if that is offensive - that is what I thought Christianity was before.):

I hope that others who leave their religions also find what they are looking for. Or even if they don't know what they are looking for or if they are not looking for anything, like I was, I hope they find hope, peace and joy.