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If you religiously oppose masterbation... - Page 2

post #21 of 472
I'll put this here instead of in the CAC thread, but I'm also LDS and believe that masturbation is a sin. That said, I'm also wholeheartedly anti-circ. I'll be honest and say that when I was first dipping my toes into the circ issue, and came here and saw the praises of how much better being intact makes masturbation....I was hesitant. Nervous, even. But logic prevailed and like others have argued, losing a foreskin does not equal losing the ability to masturbate. So just like everything else, I will need to teach my son(s) right from wrong, and let him make his choices based on what he learns from me. I haven't reached that point yet, as he's only 18 months, so I don't have any first-hand experience.

But the foreskin definitely has quite a lot of value between a man and a woman, and that is not something I would ever ever ever take away in a (vain) attempt to curtail temptation for the few years between puberty and marriage. There is a way for sins to be forgiven, but there is not a way to take back circumcision. Children need to be taught how to 1) resist temptation and 2) how to deal with things when they do make mistakes. It's not right to take away any God-given gift in an attempt to save them from themselves. God doesn't do that to His children, we shouldn't do it to ours.

Now, in dealing with the idea that masturbation is a sin, maybe your friend needs more guidance about how to react to that sort of situation as her son grows.

There is a wonderful wonderful publication that the LDS church has, called A Parent's Guide. You don't have to be LDS to order it, and it's only $3.50.

A Parent's Guide is 52 pages full of ways parents can help their children learn healthy attitudes about their bodies, sexuality, and intimate relationships. It is all about gentleness, love, understanding...basically if Christ himself were to teach your children about their bodies, this is the attitude He would have, IMO. It definitely has the LDS gospel perspective in it, so take that into account as you read from the quotes I post.

A few quotes from it that I really like:
"The relationships that you build with your children during their early years will have a tremendous influence on the way they feel later about developing their own intimate relationships. While your children are very young, you can teach them the value of loving and being loved. During this period, you should also be careful to react properly to your young children's discoveries of their bodies."

Joseph F. Smith quoted within the book, addressing fathers:
"For your own sake, for the love that should exist between you and your boys - however wayward they might be...when you speak or talk to them, do it not in anger, do it not harshly, in a condemning spirit. Speak to them kindly; get them down and weep with them if necessary and get them to shed tears with you if possible. Soften their hearts; get them to feel tenderly toward you. Use no lash and no violence, but...approach them with reason, with persuasion and love unfeigned..."

"One of the first things he begins to discover is his body. Male and female children will naturally discover and explore their genitals just as they do the rest of their bodies. The male infant's genitals are very sensitive to touch. His penis responds to his diaper and to his parents' touch as they bathe and clothe him. He will often touch and rub his own genitals. ... Your reaction to these natural explorations will influence the way a child later feels about his procreative powers. Do not either worry about or encourage the child's explorations. Remain neutral, and the child will accept that these parts of his body are good, just as the other parts are."

"It is important that you teach your children about sexuality. The Lord has given the responsibility for the teaching of children to parents, and this is one area where children need accurate and morally correct information. The subject of sexuality is discussed so openly in today's world that your children cannot avoid hearing about it. .... In matters of human sexuality, honesty and accuracy are important. .... Rationally answer, question, or seek sources of information together with the child. If ever there is a crucial time for open parent-child communication, it is during such conversations. This does not mean that you should force the child to confront details. The child's own pace is usually the best indicator of how and when to proceed."

"Masturbation is considered by many in the world to be the harmless expression of an instinctive sex drive. Teach your children that the prophets have condemned it as a sin throughout the ages and that they can choose not to do it. Throughout childhood, boys and girls have touched their own genitals frequently to wash and to dress. This is a behavior that usually has the same meaning as keeping one's feet warm in the winter, enjoying a swim on a hot day, or scratching an itch. We ought to be friendly to our bodies and appreciate the body's marvelous range of senses. This innocent touching is not the kind of behavior warned against by prophets through the ages. The sin of masturbation occurs when a person stimulates his or her own sex organs for the purpose of sexual arousal. ....
Masturbation is not physically necessary. There is already a way by which the male system relieves excessive spermatic fluid quite regularly through the nocturnal emission or wet dream. Monthly menstrual flow expels the female's egg and cleanses the womb. For both sexes, physical or emotional tensions can be released by vigorous activity. Thus, in a biological sense, masturbation for either gender is not necessary."

"The scriptures often refer respectfully but plainly to the body and its parts. There is no embarrassment and often there is sacred symbolism. It is the world that makes the divinely created body and object of carnal lust. For example, it makes the female breasts primarily into sexual enticements, while the truth is that they were intended to nourish and comfort children. It promotes male sexual aggression in contrast to Christ's example of tenderness, long-suffering, kindness, and steadfastness in the home.
Shame about the human body, its parts and purposes, is justified only when a person uses it for carnal purposes. Teach your children that they will find joy in their bodies when they use them virtuously after the manner taught by Christ."
post #22 of 472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiahs View Post
losing a foreskin does not equal losing the ability to masturbate
Yup, that. All issues of morality, circ debate, etc aside, the bottom line is that circumcision doesn't prevent boys/men from masturbating.

I've heard it given as a reason for circ before, but only in historical context, not as a modern reason - it's one of the reasons why circ became such a big deal in the US to start with, but it's a very outdated reason and completely erroneous.
post #23 of 472
If anyone is interested in reading a Christian perspective that is not anti-masturbation, a good site to check out is www.themarriagebed.com and check out the forums. Masturbation is never specifically called sinful in the Bible (which I feel is rather telling, God doesn't forget things). Onan's sin was that he did not follow God's law and give his dead brother an heir, not that he "spilled his seed." There are different interpretations of this passage, but I tend to think Occam's razor applies here. Everything else seems convoluted.
post #24 of 472
Do you think she's even remotely open to considering that masturbation isn't a sin, but certainly is appropriate to have boundaries on it? Like most ppl here, we teach Henry that touching his penis is something to do done privately, in the bathroom or in his own room when he's alone. We give him the option to remove himself at any time to do so, so it's not a banishing thing or anything.

Or is she absolutely, fundamentally opposed to it without any chance that she will find flexibility?

I'm sorry you're struggling with this, I respect other people's beliefs, but sometimes I just don't understand them at all.
post #25 of 472
Quote:
Originally Posted by lastrid View Post
Masturbation is never specifically called sinful in the Bible (which I feel is rather telling, God doesn't forget things).
In my case it's not based on a Biblical belief
post #26 of 472
Quote:
Originally Posted by hubris View Post
Yup, that. All issues of morality, circ debate, etc aside, the bottom line is that circumcision doesn't prevent boys/men from masturbating.
I think we can all agree to that, with no reservations!
post #27 of 472
Curious. Do you know if your friend would circumcise her daughters to prevent masturbation?

“Research published last year in the British Journal of Urology may well explain the links between circumcision, frequent masturbation and oral sex, however. A group of doctors headed by Dr. John R. Taylor at the University of Manitoba discovered that the sheath of foreskin tissue removed during circumcision is filled with extremely sensitive nerve endings and mucus membrane cells. The head of the penis itself is extremely insensitive to light touch, although it can be stimulated by heavy touch, they found. That lack of sensitivity in the head of the penis may well account for an increased need by circumcised men for the more intense stimulation that masturbation and oral sex can provide, according to Dr. Robert Van Howe...”
http://www.mothersagainstcirc.org



Sigh

I shouldn't be even writing to this threat, it absolutely breaks my heart like children are treated sometimes. Like they are some showdogs to cut and shape to please us adults.:

Obviously people have not much changed since these kind of medical comments;

"There can be no doubt of [masturbation's] injurious effect, and of the proneness to practice it on the part of children with defective brains. Circumcision should always be practiced. It may be necessary to make the genitals so sore by blistering fluids that pain results from attempts to rub the parts."

[Angel Money. Treatment Of Disease In Children. Philadelphia: P. Blakiston. 1887:421.]
post #28 of 472
I was also going to recommend themarriagebed.com

Here's are articles from there about masturbation:
http://www.themarriagebed.com/pages/...alledsin.shtml
http://www.themarriagebed.com/pages/...tdiscuss.shtml
post #29 of 472
I'm curious where she got the idea that masturbation is sinful. As frog wrote, the Episcopal Church generally doesn't teach that, however, there may be a few out of the mainstream conservative parishes that might.

I'm also curious where your friend got the idea that uncirc-ed boys masturbate more than circ-ed boys. Like others have said, I'm sure she's wrong about that. I'd challenge her on that assumption if you don't want to challenge her religious belief.
post #30 of 472
Most westerners feel that female circ. is horrid and barbaric, so perhaps pointing out to her that she is using the same reasoning that those who practice it would have an impact on her.

Cutting off part of another person's body in an attempt to control their behavoir is cruel.

I think that there are a lot more issues in store for her children, because I think a parent who is willing to cut off part of their child's body to keep them from *sin* sounds like they could easily be emotionally and possibility physically abusive.
post #31 of 472
I don't think there is anything publsihed that links circumcised men to masturbating less! : I will say that is the argument I hear from some Egyptians on why they think their daughters should have FGM! (Maybe telling your friend that would have a shock value?) I believe that was an argument back in the Victorian era for circumcision... but I don't know anybody who believes that today. According to most surveys, 95-99% of all men masturbate ... be they circumcised or not... religious or not.. etc.

In Islam, if one is masturbating a lot... most scholars would suggest that they get married. Historically, muslims who tend to stay virgins until marriage (both male and female), tend to get married earlier. I would much rather my son masturbate, then sleep with girls he is not married too. I have no issues with any of my children (male or female) knowing how to give themselves pleasure... as I feel that it will only make them better lovers to their husbands/wives.

I actually think this is something that perhaps her husband should address (assuming she's married.) Perhaps he can give her a reality check about men and masturbation?
post #32 of 472
I feel so, so sorry for any little boys subjected to these beliefs. Start life with circ, get a little prostrate cancer later in life... all in the name of religion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3072021.stm

Quote:
"...men who reported frequent ejaculation over their lifetime - that's more than four to seven times per month, in case you're counting - had fewer overall cases of prostate cancer than those who ejaculated less often."

"And those tireless individuals averaging 21 or more ejaculations a month over their lifetime showed only half the risk for developing the disease." 7
http://www.religioustolerance.org/masturba1.htm
post #33 of 472
Sometimes I wonder if all those who oppose masturbation actually never do it?
My DH said once: "there is a reason why God made you hand end right at that spot".
post #34 of 472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janelovesmax View Post
Sometimes I wonder if all those who oppose masturbation actually never do it?
Since I'm a married woman, my experience might not count, since I've heard it's a lot easier for girls to resist But anyway, I don't, nor have I ever (except once) masturbated.
post #35 of 472
back when we were dating, DH commented that "98 percent of the population masturbates, and the other 2 percent knows a certain little song."

Me: "What song is that?"

DH: "Well, I dunno, but I guess you're in the 98 percent, too, huh."

:

Yeah, and he's circed.

Man, what a bizarre concept. Really, her kid will either take her anti-masturbation theology to heart and resist (um, part of the time,) or he won't.

In neither case with his intactness or lack thereof impact the decision. Even James Dobson wrote a compelling case for parental understanding of youthful masturbation. Is she into Dobson?
post #36 of 472
I look at it this way: masturbation, like UTIs, has nothing to do with the foreskin's absence or presence.
post #37 of 472
Quote:
Originally Posted by klg47 View Post
I posted more extensively about this in the circ thread. I just wanted to say that my religion (LDS) is against masturbation. We will teach that to our kids, but we will NOT use shame or guilt to do so. I'm not sure how we'll do it, but that's my plan. We do not believe that sex or sexual feelings are dirty or wrong - just that there is one proper place to express them (after marriage, between a man and a woman). If our children choose not to believe the same way we do, they will not be guilted, outcast, or otherwise.
Us too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lilyka View Post
I teach and encourage my chidlren towards purity in thoughts and action. this includes masturbation. i have never made it a big deal, treat it kinda like picking thier nose, . . . knock it off and go wash your hands . . . an undesirable habit (we will talk more about it when they are older) that shouldn't be indulged.
This is more or less how we deal with it.


Form a theological standpoint, one of the purposes of the teachings on sexuality is self discipline, learning to express oneself in the appropriate context. Cutting a boy's penis to prevent him from having sexual temptation is like cutting off a kid's tongue so he can't feel taste to keep him from being tempted towards gluttony--it just doesn't make sense.
post #38 of 472
[QUOTE=eightyferrettoes;7649746]back when we were dating, DH commented that "98 percent of the population masturbates, and the other 2 percent knows a certain little song."

Me: "What song is that?"

DH: "Well, I dunno, but I guess you're in the 98 percent, too, huh."

QUOTE]

Just told that to dh and he laughed.
post #39 of 472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassiopeia View Post
I feel so, so sorry for any little boys subjected to these beliefs. Start life with circ, get a little prostrate cancer later in life... all in the name of religion.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3072021.stm



http://www.religioustolerance.org/masturba1.htm
Well, my dh is circed but I make sure he's good on that front, anyway.
post #40 of 472
It sickens me that people raise their children to believe that touching their own body is sinful. I wonder if these parents have never masturbated? I guess they just don't mention that. Keeps the kid feeling weird and inferior.
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